The Good Cardinal Ranjith!

[stephraim]

I think there’s room for both approaches, and I think both are necessary. The ritual could more outwardly express (to our Western sensibilities and Tradition) reverence for the mystery of the Real Presence, but catechesis would definitely be necessary to explain why the reverence is important. It’s not either/or, but both/and.

 

[jwinch2]

I think there’s room for both approaches, and I think both are necessary. The ritual could more outwardly express (to our Western sensibilities and Tradition) reverence for the mystery of the Real Presence, but catechesis would definitely be necessary to explain why the reverence is important. It’s not either/or, but both/and.

I agree. My point is that I believe there is a sequence which would yield better results than focusing on all at once. Build from the essentials and add the rest on top of it. Is the rock really rock solid? If not, then piling other stuff on top of it may cover up the problems for a while, but in the long term things will just crumble again.

Again, I am not saying don’t do both, I am saying that focusing on too many things at once often leads to incomplete and ultimately ineffective fixes and that an approach based on the foundations of our faith first, will be ultimately more effective.

 

[TrueLight]

I have already covered this in more than one post in the above discussion. However, I will give an abbreviated version for the sake of clarity.

I believe that the reasons we have issues with professed Catholics doubting the real presence has far more to do with the horrible catechesis we have seen for the last two generations and what I head described by Cardinal Wuerl as a “massive tsunami of secularism and relativism”, particularly in the western world and to good extent the remainder of the first world. I contend that if you were to survey Eastern Catholics and Orthodox in the western world you would find similar issues in terms of doubting the real presence and they have made no changes to their liturgy. In fact, it is my understanding that they have always stood for holy communion.

My take on it is that, rather than focus on multiple reasons why Catholics are floundering, pick the biggest few issues and focus everyone on those and you will get far more accomplished. It is also my take that many here on CAF and elsewhere use these issues as a bully pulpit to talk about things that they wished to see changed in the celebration of the Mass, regardless of whether or not they are the root of the problem. I contend, as I did earlier, that far too many who talk about these issues are more concerned with what something looks like it is doing, rather than what it really is doing.

Again, as I have also said, I have no problem with COTT, kneeling, etc. (I don’t care for the priest facing away from the faithful but that is another discussion). My issue is that for every moment we spend focusing on the things which are not the root of the problem that is effort that may be able to be better spent. I would prefer to see the Church undertake a study of sorts to find out where best to focus their efforts to yield the greatest result. Changing aspects of the Mass, while it may make some feel good does not affect those who have gone away from the faith, it only affects those who are there. We have huge, deep seated issues in the Church right now and I am not convinced that the Mass is the reason for it.

Thanks for the summary, but the above doesn’t contain any tangible examples. What other issues? ABC? Premarital Sex?

I do see in later posts you speak of not understanding the real presence as an issue and I agree. In my opinion, that is necessary teaching, but without the ritualistic signs emphasizing that teaching, all we end up with is cerebral knowledge.

In any case, we’re kind of beating a dead horse, but do you have any other examples? I’m truly curious about your approach.

 

[jwinch2]

Thanks for the summary, but the above doesn’t contain any tangible examples. What other issues?

"ME:

I believe that the reasons we have issues with professed Catholics doubting the real presence has far more to do with the horrible catechesis we have seen for the last two generations and what I head described by Cardinal Wuerl as a “massive tsunami of secularism and relativism”, particularly in the western world and to good extent the remainder of the first world.

but without the ritualistic signs emphasizing that teaching, all we end up with is cerebral knowledge.

Perhaps, though Church teaching for a long time has been that love is an act of the will and that it is hard if not impossible to love something which you do not know. Cerebral knowledge and acceptance is an important step in the development of faith. Most people, not all certainly but most, first come to know Christ, then they come to love Him, and then they come to trust Him. The real presence and trust that Christ meant exactly what He said is one of the most challenging aspects of the faith for those who are not already Catholic as well as those who have fallen away. If we do not take the time to build that trust in the proper manner I am of the opinion that we have built on a foundation of sand and it will crumble away when it is inevitably challenged.

None of the changes that have been discussed in the Mass during this thread change the fact that Jesus Christ is present. body, blood, soul, and divinity in the Eucharist. What they change is our expression of that truth. My opinion is that if the knowledge has not been attained leading to faith being already present, it is all too easy for the ritual to become empty and meaningless. The ritual cannot be the foundation of your faith, it must be an expression of it.

To me, that starts with teaching the faith purely and fighting the secularism that is spreading across the world like wildfire. I’m not suggesting at all that it should end there, but I believe it to be the best place to begin and the one which will likely yield the greatest return on our investment of effort on the part of the Church.

I also still believe that issues like this get co-opted by those who simply prefer the Mass to be run differently. But that is the cynic in me talking…

 

[At_Trent]

Lol awsome Trent! It’s amazing but what people fail to realize is that in order to change the world we must change ourselves, for this Cardinal it’s in his complete authority to ban certain practices in his see and make the rubrics strict and according to the missal. Small changes can lead to major ones, Rome wasn’t built in a day.

That’s right

 

[At_Trent]

Changes such as requiring communicants to receive kneeling and on the tongue, and the ad orientem posture of the priest at Mass are both methods of catechesis in and of themselves and also provide the basis for more in depth catechesis from the pulpit.

exactly

 

[At_Trent]

Here is what happens when a Cardinal runs a loose ship.

mundabor.wordpress.com/2011/07/04/dum-romae-consulitur-austrian-rebellion-and-sheperds-inaction/

 

[MiserereMeiDeus]

which suggests to me that it is not kneeling that is important but proper teaching and understanding.

Again, I have to disagree. If kneeling is part of our tradition, then it must be important. In the Western world, kneeling is a sign of humility, and adoration. I do agree that proper teaching and understanding is important. But what good is telling people about the Real Presence, but not changing our behavior and gestures when we encounter it?

And when the Holy Father travels he does the same which to me implies that it is not essential for the faith or the understanding and acceptance of the real presence.

As the Holy Father said in his great work on the Liturgy, The Spirit of the Liturgy, the loss of Mass celebrated ad orientem is one of the greatest downfalls since the Council. Mass celebrated ad orientem has serious spiritual and theological, and eschatology meeting.

I feel strongly that if we do not focus on what the essential issues are first, meaning those things that absolutely must be in place for the faith to be present, then we are missing the boat. Once we have made significant efforts and progress in those areas, then the time will come to focus on the things which might be helpful but not necessarily essential.

Agreed. But to me it is necessary to focus on the essential issues, both in catechizing verbally and by how we outwardly express our interior faith. Lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.

I respect where you are coming from, I really do. I just have come to a different conclusion as to how to approach the situation.

I honestly respect where you are coming from as well. It is refreshing to know that there are those who are devoted to the faith as you are. We both agree that the underlying issues need to be resolved. I just think that we should show our beliefs outwardly at Mass. Thank you for this invigorating discussion.

-Miserere

 

[jwinch2]

I honestly respect where you are coming from as well. It is refreshing to know that there are those who are devoted to the faith as you are. We both agree that the underlying issues need to be resolved. I just think that we should show our beliefs outwardly at Mass. Thank you for this invigorating discussion.

-Miserere

Peace,

 

[MiserereMeiDeus]

Peace

Et cum spiritu tuo.