Please explain what this means to you:
How do you understand this verse, then?
You and us ? You seem to think that you are going to heaven and others are going to Hell? Who is going where and when? Only God knows
Concerning the red type at the top of “Ott,” I agree that free-will is involved, and that those who go to Hell, go there on the basis of their own sin, because everyone is born a sinner and sins, and, if God did not predestine some to salvation, none would be saved.In the Canons of Dordt, First Point of Doctrine, Article 7, it states:
Before the foundation of the world, by sheer grace, according to the free good pleasure of his will, [God] chose in Christ to salvation a definite number of particular people out of the entire human race which had fallen by its own fault from its original innocence into sin and ruin.
The Catholic Church, following St. Augustine (e.g., Grace and Free Will, 1,1; Sermon 169, 11,13), accepts predestination of the elect to heaven, but also affirms the freedom of the human will, thus staking out a position distinct from Calvinism. Predestination to hell, in Catholicism, always involves man’s free will, and foreseen sins, so that man is ultimately responsible for his own damnation, not God (double predestination is rejected).
God is sovereign, in our view, every bit as much as in Protestantism (particularly Calvinism), as will amply be demonstrated below. All that is disputed are the intricacies of the grace / free will antinomy, which is one of the most mysterious and difficult questions in the history of both Christian theology and theistic philosophy. Of course, the allowance of free will is also present in Lutheran, Anglican, Methodist, most charismatic, non-denominational and Baptist theologies, etc.
The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a de fide dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty), while at the same time affirming free will and the possibility of falling away from the faith. The following material from Catholic theologian Ludwig Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (Rockford, IL: TAN Books, 1974 {orig. 1952}, pp.242-45) ought to be most helpful for Protestants seeking to understand what Catholics believe about this ever-mysterious, controversial, complex, highly abstract theological question:
Catholics must believe that:
- GOD, BY HIS ETERNAL RESOLVE OF WILL, HAS PREDETERMINED CERTAIN MEN TO ETERNAL BLESSEDNESS (De fide)
.CHESTERTONRULES:
Calvinism can lead people to hell by convincing them that all hope is lost.
Catholics don’t deny free will.
I’m providing you the dogma of Calvinism, not my personal opinion.
Calvinists do not deny free-will. That is a straw man you’ve constructed, and you were corrected on that early on in this tread.
Do you believe that a man is capable of seeking God?
)What facts do you choose to ignore?(I’m on ignore
Sand:
I agree… and said that in post #31. Because I said it, tho, Chester will dismiss it.
I know.Rom 3:11, quoting two Psalms, says that "there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God."
Jesus said he will draw all men to himself.Rom 3:11, quoting two Psalms, says that "there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God."
This is not a question of what Calvinists say, but a question of what God has revealed.
Everyone who would call himself Christian should affirm that none seeks for God.
Thanks for asking. Within the entire human race which is united to Adam, thus in rebellion against God and seperated from Him because of sin and heading for eternal damnation, God chose some for salvation for His own glory. God saved a remnant for Himself chosen by grace for His good pleasure. There was nothing in the remnant that compelled God to choose them. He chose them to demonstrate His love, mercy, and grace. The remnant chsoen by grace are also described as vessels of His mercy. We shouldn’t be asking why God didn’t choose the entire human race to rescuse from their condemned condition because we all know God has the power and ability to do that. We should be in awe that God would save one sinner by the sacrifice of His Son. Why would God even save one of His enemies by the infinite cost of His Son? The Bible clearly teaches predestination and election of sinners.
We are all free to choose what we desire. Why don’t most people choose Christ? Because they do not find the biblical Jesus Christ to be desirable. People in their fallen condition, love the darkness instead of the light (universally). Calivnism just has better bibilical insight why most do not freely choose Christ. We know that the command to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ is a universal command given to each and every human being (including Mary).
You sound like a good Calvinist.
He draws men of all kinds, from every nation, tribe and tongue, IOW, without distinction. He doesn’t draw all men without exception.
See if all who hear are drawn to Christ in faith without exception (if any).Calvinists and Lutherans are in agreements of the essentials of the Christian Faith. We agree on the 5 solas of the Protestant Reformation, and the biblical doctrine of justification which the church stands or fall.You sound like a good Calvinist.
Yes, Jesus DRAWS men to himself, the word there, in Greek is the same root as is found in the word for a rope used to draw fishing nets.
The idea is that Jesus is the One Who does the drawing.
The idea that it “leads men to seek Jesus” is a non sequitur, it doesn’t follow at all.
As has been pointed out, fallen man cannot please God and he will not seek Him and this is not “Calvinist” doctrine, it’s biblical, which is why Lutherans agree.
We just have some differences about who the “all men” are, but I would never dismiss the Calvinist argument as I understand it.
Clearly, in the Bible, “all” does not always mean “all” in an exhaustive, universal sense, and when we see also that it is God Who grants the gift of faith, it is impossible to get away from the conclusion that some people just don’t get it.