The Good News According to Calvin

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No mention of Ott there…again, you’re “stretching”, or would that be “obfuscating” in a grandiose manner?
It says, Ott’s book (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma) is not an official document of the church.
From CHESTERTON’S link:Recently, on a Q & A Forum, Fr. Joe Horn, O.Praem. requested of an enquirer the source of a particular statement; the reply was from Fundamentals Of Catholic Dogma, by Dr. Ludwig Ott. As the particular matter appeared to be questionable, Fr. Horn’s response was: "Good book. But it’s not an official document of the Church. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, on the other hand, is an official document.:hey_bud: The statements say nothing concerning anything being, or not being Catholic Dogma.
You have this ridiculous tendency or penchant toward shaping the English language and words to fit your particular agenda.

The words “not official” and “not dogma” are pretty conclusive and exclusively the same. Its your narrow mindedness and overtly pessimistic pedantic nastiness that pushes you to pursue your unholy agenda. You should be embarrassed and ashamed of your conduct.
 
No mention of Ott there…again, you’re “stretching”, or would that be “obfuscating” in a grandiose manner?

You have this ridiculous tendency or penchant toward shaping the English language and words to fit your particular agenda.
What I said Rob, is that what Ott says, squares with what you’ve posted with respect to RC Predestination, and it does.

If you think it doesn’t, point out where it doesn’t.

Otherwise, I conclude that your jesting about my English is nothing more than projection. :hmmm:
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RobHom:
The words “not official” and “not dogma” are pretty conclusive and exclusively the same. Its your narrow mindedness and overtly pessimistic pedantic nastiness that pushes you to pursue your unholy agenda. You should be embarrassed and ashamed of your conduct.
The reason that the statement says nothing about Ott’s book being Catholic Dogma, is because Ott’s book is not Catholic Dogma, but an explanation of the fundamentals thereof.

🤷 It’s not that difficult, Rob, just turn the “thinking switch” to "on."
 
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Calvinists and Lutherans are in agreements the 5 solas of the Protestant Reformation, and the biblical doctrine of justification which the church stands or fall.
The church does not “stand or fall” on the Calvanist or Lutheran “agreements of the 5 solas”. The Church is founded upon Jesus, and stands because He cannot deny Himself.
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That should not be a problem for you.
I am continually amazed by your use of the word “should” and “shouldn’t”. Perhaps you do not realize that these words are red flags about your expectations?
Scripture teaches
Actually, Scripture does not “teach”. Teaching is the activity of a person, not a book. We all interpret scripture based on what we have been taught by persons. 😉

God predestines some persons. We beleive that God chose Mary, and prepared her, the same for John the Baptist, and others.

He chose some that he knew were headed for perdition, like Judas. Jesus chose him as an apostle, yet he knew He was a “devil”. He had a Purpose. He chose Judas in spite of His foreknowlege that Judas would betray Him. The evidence does not support that this is the case for all humans. 🤷
When one understands election as God’s sovereign choice of some persons to be saved, it should be evident, necessarily, that another choice of God is at work: His sovereign choice not to save others.
I agree, which is why the Church teaches that this “understanding” is defective.
That’s known as reprobation—God’s sovereign decision, before creation, to punish for their sins, those not chosen for salvation. It is through that choice that God manifests His justice.
God chose to allow those to proceed to perdition who refused to respond to His grace. He does not desire that any be lost.
What’s observed in scripture is that God’s will is spoken of in two distinct aspects: God’s “secret” will, and His “revealed” will, or will of “precept” (Dt 29:29).

God’s revealed will is His declaration concerning what men should do, or should not do because God has commanded them so to do, or not to do.
I think it has become clear that your sese of waht is revealed, or what “should” happen is not consistent with apostolic teaching.
:eek:
God’s revealed will is described by the Gk word thelō. That ”thelō” will of God, is the will of God that men disobey.

Regarding God’s secret will, it’s described by the Gk word boolay. That is His secret Counsel, His Divine Purpose. That ”boolay” will of God is the Divine Purpose of God that no man can disobey or thwart.
So, it was God’s will that His own chosen people should reject Him?
A few exceptions interchange the Greek words, but overall, thelō and boolay describe God’s will as revealed, or secret respectively.
:rotfl: :rotfl:

“a few exceptions”… :rotfl: :rotfl:
Don’t be fooled by the “WHAT IF,” as it’s a statement of fact, in a rhetorical question—God is now doing what v 22 describes (cf v17).

We see further in Rom 11:7, that God did not choose all to be saved when Paul says of Israel, ”…the elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened.” And Peter echoes both Jude, and Paul, when he says, “they stumble because they disobey [refuse to repent and believe] the word, ***as they were destined ***[etethēsan] to do” (1 Pet 2:7, 8).
The Catholic Church does not teach that all will be saved.
 
I wish to apologize to both sandusky and Reformed. I tried to reply to a post from each of you in one and attributed quotes to the other that did not belong.
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And Jesus thanked the Father ***both*** for hiding the knowledge of salvation from some, and for revealing it to others, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, ***that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to babes;*** yea, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in your sight” (Mt 11:25, 26).
Are we snuggling up to gnosticism again?
That God desires, or commands all men to be saved is seen in Acts 17:30, “God is now declaring to men, that all people everywhere should repent…”

Do all people repent? We know they don’t, even though it’s God’s revealed will that they should.

God also reveals that He desires men to live moral lives. That is seen in the moral law He gave to the Jews. God has made it clear to men, in the Decalogue, what they shall not do.

However, even though the Decalogue is God’s revealed will for men, they disobey, and break His law. Sometimes His punishment is swift, and other times, He is “longsuffering,” and forebears punishment (cf Rom 9:22).
Your position does not seem to hang together. You seem here to agree with the apostolic teaching that God draws all men, and some refuse to come. Yet your other statements seem to suggest that God does not provide grace to be drawn.
Again, God’s secret will, His Divine Purpose, can neither be disobeyed by anyone, nor thwarted by anyone.
So, when some people rejected God’s purpose for themselves it really means that He did not really purpose for them to be saved?
So the 1 Tim 2 passage is a statement of God’s revealed will—that all men be saved, but not a statement of His Divine Purpose, in which He saves some, and consigns others to destruction.
Honestly! The twisting! It is like a hot air balloon at the recent fiesta in Albuquerque, which was blown into a power line and the pilot killed by the wind. The spinning and twirling to get around the apostolic teaching boggles the mind. 😦
 
Most of you are going to hell and there’s nothing you can do about it.

Some of us are going to heaven and there’s nothing we can do about it.

Isn’t that good news?
Calvin, like Luther, misunderstood what the Scriptures and Tradition say about Heaven and Hell, salvation and damnation, and, most importantly, Providence.

Divine Providence means God in His all-powerful Love and Mercy guides history and the Universe to the final consummation, when He will vanquish all evil and create a new Heaven and new Earth.

It dose not mean some are destined for Heaven and others for Hell: That would contradict free-will, which is God’s free and undeserving gift to us for our greater good, i.e., His grace for us.

We can abuse every grace of God, so we can use free-will for evil, and by doing so, damn ourselves to Hell. But if we use free-will as we should, living through, with, and in God, than we shall be saved: Not by our own efforts, but by God’s grace, Who alone is our Salvation. We only co-operate with Him in doing His Will, which includes - believe it or not - sharing in His beatitude forever in Heaven.

Those who commit sin, who abuse the graces God gives them, and who, by their sins, separate themselves from God (as is the effect of sin), go to the eternal separation from God, which is Hell. Those who live through God, with God, and in God are united with God, and so, go to the eternal communion with God, which is Heaven.

A lot of this hogwash about “some are saved, others are damned, but it’s okay, it’s not your fault, God only wills some saved, not all” is based on a misunderstanding of the word “elect” in the Epistles of Saint Paul. By elect is not meant individuals who are better or higher or freer than others, nor dose it mean individuals who will be saved while everyone else is damned, nor dose it mean individuals who are favored by God: Rather, “elect” means, quite simply as the Scriptures teach, those individuals who have been elected by God to Catholicism - or, in other words, those whom God has chosen to be members of the Church. As Jesus put it, “It is not you who choose Me but I who choose you.”

This dosen’t mean God dosen’t elect everyone, though, it only means not everyone chooses to adhere to God’s call or hears God’s call. A lot of people blame God for everything, while they forget that they themselves are the cause of evil and suffering; they forget they have free-will and a fallen human nature, so they say, “it is not my fault but God’s!” No, it is not God’s fault: He calls everyone to election, He wants everyone to join His Church - if not on Earth, than at least in Heaven (and some must enter Purgatory before entering Heaven, and the Church is there too, as the Church Suffering). So it is not a matter of God not calling and willing all to be saved, rather, it is a matter of individuals not responding to God’s call or adhereing to His Will.

But why not? He only wills us to love and, in return for the little sufferings which we must bear - making sacrifices here, carrying crosses there - we receive a superabundant, a divine, reward: Eternal and absolute happiness, a share in the beatitude of God Himself! Who in their right mind, when they know the truth, reject such an awesome grace?
 
I wish to apologize to both sandusky and Reformed. I tried to reply to a post from each of you in one and attributed quotes to the other that did not belong.
You are confused, guanophore, and that comes through in your response(s) to my post. Thanks for the giving me something to chuckle about. :tiphat:
 
Originally Posted by Reformed
So the 1 Tim 2 passage is a statement of God’s revealed will—that all men be saved, but not a statement of His Divine Purpose, in which He saves some, and consigns others to destruction.
Calvinism elevates dogma above the truths of scripture.

All scripture that exposes their errors is “rewritten” or ignored.

This is a classic example of Calvinism in action.
 
Most of you are going to hell and there’s nothing you can do about it.

Some of us are going to heaven and there’s nothing we can do about it.

Isn’t that good news?
Is that the best you can do?

Here’s Calvinism in a nutshell.

1, Man can not do anything without God

2, To have God you must be preselected by him.

3, If you have been preselected it is your duty to make people act like Christians.

In short, if you are predestined it is your duty to make people do what is impossible for them to do. :hmmm:
 
Is that the best you can do?

Here’s Calvinism in a nutshell.

1, Man can not do anything without God

2, To have God you must be preselected by him.

3, If you have been preselected it is your duty to make people act like Christians.

In short, if you are predestined it is your duty to make people do what is impossible for them to do. :hmmm:
Not bad.

However, it is less provocative.

😃
 
Just how can one be sure they are of the elect? 2St.Peter 2:21,"For it were better for them not to have KNOWN the way of justice,than to HAVING KNOWN it, turn back from…"or S.tLuke 12:47-48,which has Jesus saying essentially the same thing …so there is no real way of knowing if one is “predestined” to glory…in both scriptures we have people who KNEW the truth yet left it behind,and it these people who are judged harshly not those who didn’t know…please, please, tell how can one be sure they are of the “choosen” ones?
 
Just how can one be sure they are of the elect? 2St.Peter 2:21,"For it were better for them not to have KNOWN the way of justice,than to HAVING KNOWN it, turn back from…"or S.tLuke 12:47-48,which has Jesus saying essentially the same thing …so there is no real way of knowing if one is “predestined” to glory…in both scriptures we have people who KNEW the truth yet left it behind,and it these people who are judged harshly not those who didn’t know…please, please, tell how can one be sure they are of the “choosen” ones?
Let’s assume you can’t be “infallibly” sure. So what?
 
Let’s assume you can’t be “infallibly” sure. So what?
Do you want to take the chance and be judged harshly by God??? calvinism teaches that only the elect are to be in heaven,and if one doesn’t presereve it is because they are not of the elect,so why take the chance of recieving the wrath of God,unless you can know that you won’t.
 
Do you want to take the chance and be judged harshly by God??? calvinism teaches that only the elect are to be in heaven,and if one doesn’t presereve it is because they are not of the elect,so why take the chance of recieving the wrath of God,unless you can know that you won’t.
I don’t follow you at all.

There is no “chance” involved at all.
 
I don’t follow you at all.

There is no “chance” involved at all.
There is obedience to God’s will or disobedience.

You can believe or refuse to believe.

God has done his part by giving you the grace to follow.

Now you must accept his grace and use it.

It is not chance, but it is something you can reject.
 
I don’t follow you at all.

There is no “chance” involved at all.
only the elect are allowed into heaven and recieve no punishment…those who are not elect go where?to the place of eternal punishment…read St.Luke 12:47-48,if one knows what God wants and doesn’t do it they will be punished harshly.Where as one who doesn’t know what God wants,but does things deserving harsh punishment,will recieve light punishment…so if one is not of the elect but lives like one,they are not doing want God wants,since they are densitied to hell they are living a lie.
 
only the elect are allowed into heaven and recieve no punishment…those who are not elect go where?to the place of eternal punishment…read St.Luke 12:47-48,if one knows what God wants and doesn’t do it they will be punished harshly.Where as one who doesn’t know what God wants,but does things deserving harsh punishment,will recieve light punishment…so if one is not of the elect but lives like one,they are not doing want God wants,since they are densitied to hell they are living a lie.
No one will be punished undeservedly. There are no innocent people in hell. Those who are not part of the elect can not live a life of righteousness. They may be able to perform good deeds that would warrant the praise of man, such as working in a soup kitchen or donating money to a charity but in the end, they are judged accordingly.
 
Chesterton’s idea seems to be that according to Calvinism, there will be people excluded from heaven who desperately want to be there.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

Everyone gets what they want.

Everyone “wants” hell and “freedom” from God.

God, solely out of mercy, not because of anything in them, changes the hearts of some people so that they want Him.

To these He gives Himself.

The rest get what they want too.
 
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