The Good News According to Calvin

[guanophore]

This means God also chooses those who will go to hell through no fault of their own.

No, it means that those who are lost inherit the consequence of being born into original sin. As a result of the fall, humans inherited the Sin of Adam, and are already on the Road to perdition.

This is why Jesus says:

John 3:18-21
18 He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God.

Those who persist in unbelief are condemned already.

God created us, and if it is not in our nature to seek him it is his fault.

I will agree that it is in our created nature to seek God. I do not agree with the total depravity position in that respect. however, we are born into the “fault” of adam, in that we are dead in our sins unless and until we are rescued by God.

Thankfully, God loves us and he reaches out to all men through the Holy Spirit who convicts the entire world of sin. God wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.

Calvinists claim that God’s grace only reaches out to the elect and that he sends the rest of humanity to Hell.

I don’t think the second half of this is right. I will not claim to understand or espouse Calvanism, but it seems to me that “the rest of humanity” (those who refuse to respond to God’s grace) are already on the road to hell. It is their birthright as children of Adam.

However I do agree that God gives sufficient grace for all to come to the knowledge of the truth. Those who respond to this grace are elected unto life.

This is inaccurate and not biblical.

Is this what you mean by nuanced?

I think your characterization of Calvanism is a bit off.

 

[sandusky]

I believe man gives all of us enough grace to be saved. We can’t be saved without this grace, and we won’t be saved if we don’t respond to God’s grace.

This little slip says it all, CHESTERTONRULES. :ehh:

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

This little slip says it all, CHESTERTONRULES. :ehh:

There is no slip. Prove me wrong if you can with scripture.

Good luck.

 

[ralphinal]

Is this correct thinking…

GOd so loves the World that he gave his only begotten son that whoever should believe in Him should have eternal life.

God knows who will and will not beleive.

God only helps those who will beleive.

God does not love the world, but only the elect.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

No, it means that those who are lost inherit the consequence of being born into original sin. As a result of the fall, humans inherited the Sin of Adam, and are already on the Road to perdition.

God created us. Do you think God was surprised that Adam sinned? Of course not.

This means that we are created as God intended us to be created. If we are incapable of seeking him it is because that is part of our nature, which comes from him.

Thankfully, he is just, and therefore his grace reaches out to all of us.

This is why Jesus says:

John 3:18-21
18 He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil

Read between the lines. They don’t like to admit the logical conclusion of their dogma, but I believe my description is accurate.

If we are incapable of seeking God because that is the way were are created, and if God doesn’t offer all men the grace necessary to seek his will, then he is choosing who goes to heaven and hell with no regard for human (name removed by moderator)ut in the equation.

In this worldview, which is Calvinism, we are merely robots who will follow our natures.

 

[Reformed]

Is this correct thinking…

GOd so loves the World that he gave his only begotten son that whoever should believe in Him should have eternal life.

God knows who will and will not beleive.

God only helps those who will beleive.

God does not love the world, but only the elect.

Do you believe God loves the world and all individuals equally? Start with the OT and work through the NT. We are all born into this world in different degrees of advantages, disadvantages, economic status, personal looks, degree of natural intelligence, health issues, etc. Why do you think the spiritual realm is anything different? (Acts 17, Rom 9, Ephesians 1, Rom 8)). God tells us that we are adopted children. Who does the adoption, God or us?

 

[ralphinal]

Do you believe God loves the world and all individuals equally? Start with the OT and work through the NT. We are all born into this world in different degrees of advantages, disadvantages, economic status, personal looks, degree of natural intelligence, health issues, etc. Why do you think the spiritual realm is anything different? (Acts 17, Rom 9, Ephesians 1, Rom 8)). God tells us that we are adopted children. Who does the adoption, God or us?

Yes, I do. The issues that you point out are not because of God, but because either of the fallen creation or sinful men. God did not create classes/races/economic differences. He created men in His Image. Man CHOSE a different path.

God adopts, through baptism, but we must choose to remain in the family.

 

[guanophore]

Calvinists adhere to sola scriptura, and scripture establishes, clearly, that the fault for going to hell is found within the individual.

Again, scripture establishes that none seek for God, and it’s not God’s fault that they don’t seek him, but that the fault for that is found within the individual.

According to scripture, the Spirit convicts men of more than sin only.

That’s what God’s commanded men to do, but many disobey God.

God gifts all men with grace, but He gifts only the elect with saving grace.

Those who go to hell go to hell not because of sin, as God is willing to forgive their sin, they go to hell because they are disobedient to the Gospel.

I agree with most of this, the last part, though, I think is wrong. It is sin that separates us from God. It is being born into sin that puts us in need for a gospel. Jesus was clear that refusal to believe in the gospel would bring about the result that people would “die in your sins” because of the refusal to believe. The refusal to believe makes it impossible to access grace, which is the only means available to save us from our sins.

 

[Reformed]

Yes, I do. The issues that you point out are not because of God, but because either of the fallen creation or sinful men. God did not create classes/races/economic differences. He created men in His Image. Man CHOSE a different path.

God adopts, through baptism, but we must choose to remain in the family.

What do you do with the biblical themes of election, predestination, and chosen that is found throughout the OT and NT? We cannot gloss over biblical revelation because we don’t like them. I think Paul answers your objection of calling things as being unfair in Romans 9.

 

[ralphinal]

What do you do with the biblical themes of election, predestination, and chosen that is found throughout the OT and NT? We cannot gloss over biblical revelation because we don’t like them. I think Paul answers your objection of calling things as being unfair in Romans 9.

SO does God hate the poor and love the rich?

DOes he hate the disabled and love the athletic?

Those issues, election, predestination, and being chosen, are not issues. What is an issue is that God can deny someone the ability to choose to say yes or no. The Isrealites were choosen, yet they could say no. And they did. Mary was chosen, yet she could have said no.

The concept of predestination, if carried to its fullest, leads to a very bad spot. ONe that says if I sin, then I am not one of the elect so why try.

 

[Reformed]

SO does God hate the poor and love the rich?

DOes he hate the disabled and love the athletic?

Those issues, election, predestination, and being chosen, are not issues. What is an issue is that God can deny someone the ability to choose to say yes or no. The Isrealites were choosen, yet they could say no. And they did. Mary was chosen, yet she could have said no.

The concept of predestination, if carried to its fullest, leads to a very bad spot. ONe that says if I sin, then I am not one of the elect so why try.

Please mediate on 1 Corinthians chapters 1 and 2 today for answers to your questions. Lord willing, I am going to get you to think biblically and not emotionally.

BTW… in our Bible Study on the Epistles of Paul…we are on 1 Corintians chapters 1 and 2. Both Ryan and Michael are participating on it. Here’s the link.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=273731&page=30

 

[ralphinal]

Please mediate on 1 Corinthians chapters 1 and 2 today for answers to your questions. Lord willing, I am going to get you to think biblically and not emotionally.

BTW… in our Bible Study on the Epistles of Paul…we are on 1 Corintians chapters 1 and 2. Both Ryan and Michael are participating on it. Here’s the link.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=273731&page=30

That did not answer my question. Does God hate the poor and love the rich?

Does God hate the disabled and love the Athletic?

 

[guanophore]

Do you believe God loves the world and all individuals equally? Start with the OT and work through the NT. We are all born into this world in different degrees of advantages, disadvantages, economic status, personal looks, degree of natural intelligence, health issues, etc. Why do you think the spiritual realm is anything different? (Acts 17, Rom 9, Ephesians 1, Rom 8)). God tells us that we are adopted children. Who does the adoption, God or us?

Apparently you believe we can be adopted against our will? Or that, once adopted, we cannot go back and behave as we did before we were adopted?

What do you do with the biblical themes of election, predestination, and chosen that is found throughout the OT and NT? We cannot gloss over biblical revelation because we don’t like them. I think Paul answers your objection of calling things as being unfair in Romans 9.

I think your understanding of these themes, and the Apostolic Teaching on them are divergent.

Lord willing, I am going to get you to think biblically and not emotionally. :)

This is a clear statement of your intentions here on CAF. Since you already know that we believe the manner in which one “thinks” about the bible is dependent upon their perspective, you are freely admitting here that your goal is to get Catholics to think about Scripture the way Reformed teaching dictates. This is a clear violation of the forum rules, however, I am not going to report this post because I am recently impressed with your improved attitude and openness to discussion. However, please be advised that it is against the rules here to proselytize Catholics.

We are not here to be converted by you,but to attempt to answer honest questions about the Catholic faith.

 

[Reformed]

Apparently you believe we can be adopted against our will? Or that, once adopted, we cannot go back and behave as we did before we were adopted?

I think your understanding of these themes, and the Apostolic Teaching on them are divergent.

This is a clear statement of your intentions here on CAF. Since you already know that we believe the manner in which one “thinks” about the bible is dependent upon their perspective, you are freely admitting here that your goal is to get Catholics to think about Scripture the way Reformed teaching dictates. This is a clear violation of the forum rules, however, I am not going to report this post because I am recently impressed with your improved attitude and openness to discussion. However, please be advised that it is against the rules here to proselytize Catholics.

We are not here to be converted by you,but to attempt to answer honest questions about the Catholic faith.

Thanks for your warning and kindness. However, from my perspective of the invisble church, we are either united to Christ or we are not. How can I proselytize someone who is already united to Christ and attends a Catholic Church? If you are in Christ, then you are united to Christ regardless of your religous community. BTW…I talk this same way on Protestants forum sites. I preach Christ and the gospel to myself, family, Protestants and Catholics alike. There are no denominations in Heaven or the invisible church.

 

[guanophore]

Thanks for your warning and kindness. However, from my perspective of the invisble church, we are either united to Christ or we are not. How can I proselytize someone who is already united to Christ and attends a Catholic Church?

Perhaps you have forgotten about many of the insulting posts about “Roman Catholics” that you posted? You came on here pandering a very pejorative and prejudiced attitude.

Also, your posts make it clear that you believe your Reformed perspective of Scripture is the correct one. You are welcome to this opinion. Blatant attempts to convert others to it, however, have no place here.

If you are in Christ, then you are united to Christ regardless of your religous community. BTW…I talk this same way on Protestants forum sites. I preach Christ and the gospel to myself, family, Protestants and Catholics alike. There are no denominations in Heaven or the invisible church.

I agree with these points. Only God knows for sure those who are His. However, CAF is not a venue for “preaching”. That is not the purpose or mission of the apostolate. If you wish to “preach the gospel” you may want to consider another venue.

I hope you will still hang around here though, because I find your recent openness refreshing.