The Gospel of John and the Synoptics

[Wesrock]

Paul is speaking of baptism in Ephesians, and his letter is not using an exclusive us referring only to himself and the apostles, but an inclusive us referring to himself and the Church in Ephesus specifically and Christians in general.

Ephesians 2
1 And you he made alive, when you were dead through the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among these we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of body and mind, and so we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God— 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

I could go further or start the quote earlier, but what you quoted is, as I stated, clearly including the church at Ephesus in its scope, and the specific act in which we died and were raised is Baptism. But regardless of any dispute over the regenerative power of baptism, it’s clear Paul is not speaking of Pentecost, or his own encounter with Jesus, or even of just those who have ever met Jesus, but of all Christians.

As for what “the first Christians” understood, you’re speaking of a ten day period after the ascension. The kingdom was understood at Pentecost, and the apostles helped bring new Christians into the kingdom, to raise them up in Christ, as part of Christ’s body, and to share the Spirit with them.

 

[Wesrock]

I am not saying that Paul is using metaphor. He can be literal here. But being literal is not the same as speaking of being physically brought to heaven in the flesh, or having some type of grand vision like John in Revelation.

 

[PNEUMA]

Paul is speaking of baptism in Ephesians, and his letter is not using an exclusive us referring only to himself and the apostles, but an inclusive us referring to himself and the Church in Ephesus specifically and Christians in general.

I could go further or start the quote earlier, but what you quoted is, as I stated, clearly including the church at Ephesus in its scope, and the specific act in which we died and were raised is Baptism. But regardless of any dispute over the regenerative power of baptism, it’s clear Paul is not speaking of Pentecost, or his own encounter with Jesus, or even of just those who have ever met Jesus, but of all Christians.

As for what “the first Christians” understood, you’re speaking of a ten day period after the ascension. The kingdom was understood at Pentecost, and the apostles helped bring new Christians into the kingdom, to raise them up in Christ, as part of Christ’s body, and to share the Spirit with them.

Paul is here born of Spirit (baptized with Holy Spirit) born again.

Baptized with Spirit and baptized with water is not the same.

 

[Wesrock]

Christian baptism, of which Paul is speaking and which the Church considers a sacrament, is baptism by water and Spirit. The Church has always spoken of baptism as regeneration, as death and rising again in Christ; that is, being born again (and, if you follow the word play in Greek, from above).

 

[PNEUMA]

I am not saying that Paul is using metaphor. He can be literal here. But being literal is not the same as speaking of being physically brought to heaven in the flesh, or having some type of grand vision like John in Revelation.

Jesus was brought to heaven in the flesh. His flesh (body) is the flesh of the believers. They are in him (one with him) in “heaven” (on the throne). This is the new kingdom of God.

 

[PNEUMA]

Christian baptism, of which Paul is speaking and which the Church considers a sacrament, is baptism by water and Spirit. The Church has always spoken of baptism as regeneration, as death and rising again in Christ; that is, being born again (and, if you follow the word play in Greek, from above).

You can be baptized with water, without being baptized with spirit.

Mark 1:8 “I have baptized you with water; but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

Acts 19:1 “Paul passed through the inland regions and came to Ephesus, where he found some disciples. He said to them, ‘Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you became believers?’ They replied, ‘No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.’ Then he said, ‘Into what then were you baptized?’ They answered, ‘Into John’s baptism.”

 

[Wesrock]

And in any sense, do you dispute that that passage in Ephesians includes, at least, the entire church in Ephesus?

 

[Wesrock]

You can be baptized with water, without being baptized with spirit.

Mark 1:8 “I have baptized you with water; but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

John the Baptist was not practicing Christian baptism. It was not a sacrament. We are not imitating the Baptist in what we do.

 

[Wesrock]

Jesus was brought to heaven in the flesh. His flesh (body) is the flesh of the believers. They are in him (one with him) in “heaven” (on the throne). This is the new kingdom of God.

And that applies to all Christians in the Church in that sense, including Mark the Evangelist, who was “born again” in Christ as all Christians are, which was my original point.

 

[PNEUMA]

And in any sense, do you dispute that that passage in Ephesians includes, at least, the entire church in Ephesus?

Probably just the inner circle, the ones born again, the holy ones (the saints)

 

[PNEUMA]

PNEUMA;14154852:

Jesus was brought to heaven in the flesh. His flesh (body) is the flesh of the believers. They are in him (one with him) in “heaven” (on the throne). This is the new kingdom of God.

And that applies to all Christians in the Church in that sense, including Mark the Evangelist, who was “born again” in Christ as all Christians are, which was my original point.

No, not all Christians are “born again”

 

[Wesrock]

Probably just the inner circle, the ones born again, the holy ones (the saints)

That just seems unnecsessary. The entire section is you and us in an inclusive sense. To read that one line as exclusive with no clarification and in that context just seems to not just be a more difficult reading, but very unlikely, especially when being used for a point that has no basis in tradition while the other reading is strongly backed by tradition and which is one of the earliest known traditions and beliefs of the Church.

 

[Wesrock]

No, not all Christians are “born again”

Well, perhaps this discussion on baptism and the kingdom and other ecclesial/christological/theological disputes should be saved for the apologetics board.

Suffice it to say, Catholics see being Christian and, in particular, the sacrament of baptism as being born again and Mark would have, in Catholic eyes, been baptized in water and Spirit, confirmed in the Holy Spirit, and according to tradition, also recieved Holy Orders and was a successor to the Apostles. Mark would have understood the “kingdom”, as would have Peter and Paul and the other apostles.

 

[PNEUMA]

Well, perhaps this discussion on baptism and the kingdom and other ecclesial/christological/theological disputes should be saved for the apologetics board.

Suffice it to say, Catholics see being Christian and, in particular, the sacrament of baptism as being born again and Mark would have, in Catholic eyes, been baptized in water and Spirit, confirmed in the Holy Spirit, and according to tradition, also recieved Holy Orders and was a successor to the Apostles. Mark would have understood the “kingdom”, as would have Peter and Paul and the other apostles.

Clearly not at the time he wrote the gospel. I don’t think he was a Apostle either. Whereas John was all of the above.

 

[Wesrock]

Why “clearly not at the time he wrote the gospel”?

Tradition generally speaks of Mark as part of disciples of Jesus, too, and as one of the seventy that Jesus sent out.

 

[PNEUMA]

Why “clearly not at the time he wrote the gospel”?

Tradition generally speaks of Mark as part of disciples of Jesus, too, and as one of the seventy that Jesus sent out.

If he had been a co-ruler with Christ, at the time he wrote the gospel, it would have sounded differently.

Revelation 3:21 “He who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I myself conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.”

Ephesians 2:4 “God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus”

 

[Wesrock]

I will just politely disagree. I don’t see any points in favor of that.

 

[PNEUMA]

I will just politely disagree. I don’t see any points in favor of that.

Like Mark, Paul was not a co-ruler with Christ when he wrote the First Epistle to the Corinthians

1 Corinthians 4:8 "Already you are filled! Already you have become rich! Without us you have become kings! And would that you did reign, so that we might share the rule with you! "

Five to ten years later, he sits on the throne

Ephesians 2:4 “God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus”

 

[John_Martin]

If he had been a co-ruler with Christ, at the time he wrote the gospel, it would have sounded differently.

Revelation 3:21 “He who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I myself conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.”

Ephesians 2:4 “God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus”

Oh, come on…
Paul wrote the letter to the Ephesians from earth, not from heaven on a throne.
He is speaking of how we are “in Jesus”, as Jesus was in the Father and the Father in him.

From the instant the scales fell from Paul’s eyes he was made alive together with Christ, and raised up with him and sitting “in Christ” with Christ and with the Father, - it is Christ who is in the heavenly places and we are “in Him”.

Our bodies are not yet on the thrones prepared, but if we were seeing them, we would not be waiting with Hope, the Virtue Christ wants us to grow in, along with Faith, and especially Charity.

 

[John_Martin]

You can be baptized with water, without being baptized with spirit.

Mark 1:8 “I have baptized you with water; but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

Acts 19:1 “Paul passed through the inland regions and came to Ephesus, where he found some disciples. He said to them, ‘Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you became believers?’ They replied, ‘No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.’ Then he said, ‘Into what then were you baptized?’ They answered, ‘Into John’s baptism.”

You are talking about the baptism of John versus the baptism of Jesus; not two “versions” of Christian baptism (there is only one Christian Baptism in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit).
Jesus gave his baptism to his Apostles as we all know in reading our scriptures, especially note in Matthew 28.

And faithful hearers also know how the difference was explained in Luke’s book of Acts where Paul taught those people you mention the difference between John the Baptist’s baptism and Jesus’ Baptism; that Jesus’ baptism was authorized and commanded by Jesus to his Apostles, where they would grant Citizenship in the Kingdom, New Birth, and the Holy Spirit to the baptized.

The Church practices Jesus’ Baptism, giving the Holy Spirit to the Baptized, by Jesus’ authority given to them. You notice that when Paul did lay his hands on them, that the Holy Spirit moved where Paul’s hand moved - it came on the people on whom Paul laid his hands on.

That is Confirmation to us today, where the actual successors to the Apostles lay their hands on us, and the Holy Spirit also comes on us in fullness for our own mission of being Christ’s witnesses.