It doesn’t seem Paul had this awareness right away. In some of his letters he criticizes others that say they have been resurrected and rule with Christ.Oh, come on…
Paul wrote the letter to the Ephesians from earth, not from heaven on a throne.
He is speaking of how we are “in Jesus”, as Jesus was in the Father and the Father in him.
From the instant the scales fell from Paul’s eyes he was made alive together with Christ, and raised up with him and sitting “in Christ” with Christ and with the Father, - it is Christ who is in the heavenly places and we are “in Him”.
Our bodies are not yet on the thrones prepared, but if we were seeing them, we would not be waiting with Hope, the Virtue Christ wants us to grow in, along with Faith, and especially Charity.
Awareness is not the same as fact. Things are true that we are not aware of, such as that we consume Jesus’ Body and Blood at Mass, whether we understand it is true or not. If we take it and eat it, his body and blood are within us. He is the Lamb of God for us when we consume him, not just when we know the doctrine, else the feeble minded would have no hope in Jesus.It doesn’t seem Paul had this awareness right away. In some of his letters he criticizes others that say they have been resurrected and rule with Christ.
I think words like “Very truly, I tell you, the hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live” (John 5:25) were unknown to Paul.
Did you have this awareness of being one with Christ in heaven right away, John Martin ?
The bread and wine can also lead to sickness and death.Awareness is not the same as fact. Things are true that we are not aware of, such as that we consume Jesus’ Body and Blood at Mass, whether we understand it is true or not. If we take it and eat it, his body and blood are within us. He is the Lamb of God for us when we consume him, not just when we know the doctrine, else the feeble minded would have no hope in Jesus.
We only see now as through a glass darkly, what we will then see face to face - seeing darkly or dimly means that Paul had to learn over time what HAD ALREADY COME TRUE for him.
However, in all his letters that we have in the Bible that the Church chose for us, Paul knew everything you are saying he did not know.
Moving along… I still can’t believe that anybody is saying that St. Paul, who had a mystical meeting with Jesus right off the bat, and who literally had scales removed from his eyes at his Baptism, was somehow not also born again. I mean, totally becoming a different person is no sign of rebirth?“According to His mercy, He saved us through the washing loutrou] of new birth palingenesias] and the making new again anakainoseos] of the Holy Spirit.”
“…the prophet was foolish, the spiritual man was mad, for the greatness of your iniquity and the greatness of your madness.”
"While I was still lying in darkness and gloomy night, wavering hither and there, tossed about on the foam of this boastful age, and uncertain of my wandering steps, knowing nothing of my real life, and remote from truth and light, I used to regard it as a difficult matter, and especially as difficult in respect of my character at that time, that a man should be capable of being born again — a truth which the divine mercy had announced for my salvation — and that a man quickened to a new life in the laver of saving water should be able to put off what he had previously been; and, although retaining all his bodily structure, should be himself changed in heart and soul.
“How,” said I, “is such a conversion possible, that there should be a sudden and rapid divestment of all which, either innate in us has hardened in the corruption of our material nature, or acquired by us has become inveterate by long accustomed use? These things have become deeply and radically engrained within us. When does he learn thrift, who has been used to liberal banquets and sumptuous feasts? And he who has been glittering in gold and purple, and has been celebrated for his costly attire, when does he reduce himself to ordinary and simple clothing? One who has felt the charm of the fasces and of civic honours shrinks from becoming a mere private and inglorious citizen. The man who is attended by crowds of clients, and dignified by the numerous association of an officious train, regards it as a punishment when he is alone. It is inevitable, as it ever has been, that the love of wine should entice, pride inflate, anger inflame, covetousness disquiet, cruelty stimulate, ambition delight, lust hasten to ruin, with allurements that will not let go their hold.”
"These were my frequent thoughts. For as I myself was held in bonds by the innumerable errors of my previous life, from which I did not believe that I could by possibility be delivered, so I was disposed to acquiesce in my clinging vices; and because I despaired of better things, I used to indulge my sins as if they were actually parts of me, and indigenous to me.
"But after that, when by the help of the water of new birth, the stain of former years had been washed away, and a light from above, serene and pure, had been infused into my reconciled heart — after that, when by the agency of the Spirit breathed from heaven, a second birth had restored me to a new man — then, in a wondrous manner, doubtful things at once began to assure themselves to me, hidden things to be revealed, dark things to be enlightened, what before had seemed difficult began to suggest a means of accomplishment, what had been thought impossible, to be capable of being achieved; so that I was enabled to acknowledge that what previously, being born of the flesh, had been living in the practice of sins, was of the earth, earthly, but had now begun to be of God, and was animated by the Spirit of holiness.
St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, Lecture 20, section 4.“You yourself assuredly know and recollect as well as I do what was taken away from us, and what was given to us, by that death of evil and that life of virtue. You yourself know this without my information.”
"After these things, you were led to the holy pool of Divine Baptism, as Christ was carried from the Cross to the Sepulchre which is before our eyes. And each of you was asked, whether he believed in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, and you made that saving confession, and descended three times into the water, and ascended again; here also hinting by a symbol at the three days burial of Christ. For as our Saviour passed three days and three nights in the heart of the earth, so you also in your first ascent out of the water, represented the first day of Christ in the earth, and by your descent, the night; for as he who is in the night, no longer sees, but he who is in the day, remains in the light, so in the descent, as in the night, you saw nothing, but in ascending again you were as in the day.
“And at the self-same moment you were both dying and being born; and that Water of salvation was at once your grave and your mother. And what Solomon spoke of others will suit you also; for he said, in that case, There is a time to bear and a time to die (Ecclesiastes 3:2); but to you, in the reverse order, there was a time to die and a time to be born; and one and the same time effected both of these, and your birth went hand in hand with your death.”
No, bread and wine don’t lead to anything but physical nutritionThe bread and wine can also lead to sickness and death.
1 Corinthians 11:29 “For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died”
Both Jesus and Paul “call them bread” so that’s ok.No, bread and wine don’t lead to anything but physical nutrition
But the Body and Blood of Christ can lead to weakness, illness and death - because it is the Body and Blood of Christ you are eating and drinking, without realizing you have eaten and supped the Body and Blood of Christ, or despising them.
But they are real even if you call them bread and wine and think they remain that. When you eat and drink, you are really eating his Body, and really drinking his Blood, whether you understand or not; you are consuming the Lamb of God’s Body and Blood. whether you know the term Lamb of God or not. And if you are a faithful recipient, who eats and drinks simply because you are obedient to Jesus’ word of “Take and eat; Drink from it all of you”, then you have all its benefits, the Power of God making his body alive in you, making you alive as one.
The Gospel of John, connects the new birth to the kingdom of GodBaptism is new birth through water and the Holy Spirit.
I notice you haven’t quoted Titus 3:5 –
Moving along… I still can’t believe that anybody is saying that St. Paul, who had a mystical meeting with Jesus right off the bat, and who literally had scales removed from his eyes at his Baptism, was somehow not also born again. I mean, totally becoming a different person is no sign of rebirth? …
Not exactly. They may have use some material in common but then wrote what each experienced differently.I heard that the synoptic gospels all derive from one and the same source.