The Gospels are Myths (and other obvious observations)

  • Thread starter Thread starter AntiTheist
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
[Other obvious observations]: Atheists and Agnostics have tripped over the edge of knowledge and fallen into the precipice of their own findings.

You poor, poor souls. If anyone is worthy of pity and prayers, it’s the atheists and agnostics.

What a waste of intelligence.
 
Originally Posted by StrawberryJam[%between%](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=7151200 / post7151200)
Is there a reason I must read two Anglicans and one Catholic’s POV on this if the Holy Catholic Church has every truth in it herself?
I myself am not intimately familiar with the specific information the poster was referring to nor am I prepared to support or refute their work in this instance, but it may very well be that Marnica01’s suggestive reference of three men was made offering resources from three unrelated sources to avoid the accusation of bias should all have been of the Catholic Faith. I believe, if I am not mistaken, the point of the issue was not the accuracy of doctrine, but rather the validity of the life of Christ historically and the support for the events in scripture in general.
In valid research, it is mandated to consider all reasonable opinions to determine the greatest degree of commonality among the sources not to mention background investigations on of the sources themselves. If an atheist for instance, credibly determines the validity of Christ’s existence historically, it is viable support in its commonality with others, regardless of faith. Any other questions that arise are then left to further investigative research.
Originally Posted by Tuno;
Now isn’t THAT an interesting question! So, what do you feel the implications are if “despite” the Church’s claim to "having " all “truth,” you are still sent to other sources?
Tuno my brother, if all the information referred to were from the Catholic Church would you then have accepted it? You know you wouldn’t have. That seemed a rather premature comment for not having brought all the peaces together as of yet. With all due respect, I thought you better understood the methodology of professional research and the requirement to avoid bias in seeking the Truth.
 
Originally Posted by StrawberryJam
Is there a reason I must read two Anglicans and one Catholic’s POV on this if the Holy Catholic Church has every truth in it herself?
I myself although somewhat aware of the positions of these men, am not intimately familiar with the specific writings the poster was referring to nor am I intended on supporting or refuting their work in this instance, but it may very well be that Marnica01’s suggestive reference of three men was made offering resources from three unrelated sources to avoid the accusation of bias should all have been of the Catholic Faith. I believe, if I am not mistaken, the point of the issue was not the accuracy of doctrine, but rather the validity of the life of Christ historically and the support for the events in scripture in general.
In valid research, it is mandated to consider all reasonable opinions to determine the greatest degree of weight in commonality among the sources not to mention background research on the sources to be referred to. If an atheist for instance, credibly determines the validity of Christ’s existence historically, it is viable support for the historical existance of Christ in its commonality among the diverse, regardless of faith. Any other questions that arise are then left to further investigative research.
Originally Posted by Tuno;
Now isn’t THAT an interesting question! So, what do you feel the implications are if “despite” the Church’s claim to "having " all “truth,” you are still sent to other sources?
Tuno my brother, if all the information referred to were from the Catholic Church would you then have accepted it? You know you wouldn’t have. That seemed a rather premature comment for not having brought all the peaces together as of yet. With all due respect, I thought you better understood the methodology of professional research and the requirement to avoid bias in seeking the Truth.
 
How do I explain facts like my Visions and Experiences(rather that be seeing Jesus person to person or talking to Saint Mary or Saint Joan of Arc or which ever one I decided to share) to someone who thinks that it is all myths? What is your reply?
I would reply that people of all kinds of religions and mystical inclinations report having visions. It is not all that difficult to work up some mental enthusiasm and generate strong daydreams (or mild hallucinations).

Your “visions” mean as much to me as the visions of some Hindu mystics. They’re not evidence of anything except your overactive imagination.
God does not have to prove anything to you or anyone else. Christianity requires FAITH
And there we have it. Christianity, like other religions, requires you to accept claims that are not justified by evidence.

I don’t think that accepting claims that are not justified by evidence is a good way to go about deciding what’s true.

Sure, it may make it possible for me to work myself up into a stupor and have all kinds of gnarly daydreams, but that doesn’t make it any more true than any other mythology that I could use as the basis of such daydreams.
No, I do not have any formulas or theories, but you O-man, you stay in utter darkness and let the demons be your comfort
Yeah, you have a nice day too.
 
I would reply that people of all kinds of religions and mystical inclinations report having visions. It is not all that difficult to work up some mental enthusiasm and generate strong daydreams (or mild hallucinations).

Your “visions” mean as much to me as the visions of some Hindu mystics. They’re not evidence of anything except your overactive imagination.
The “argument from visions” is more often used in light of other historical evidence (which we have) or to prove the supernatural (ANY God, not just ours/the Hindu one).
And there we have it. Christianity, like other religions, requires you to accept claims that are not justified by evidence.
I don’t think that accepting claims that are not justified by evidence is a good way to go about deciding what’s true.
Oh ho ho! But we have evidence! Someone above mentioned Dr. N.T. Wright, a New Testament Scholar. I recently ordered an 800 Page book by him written only to prove the Resurrection. And I haven’t opened it yet, but from the table of contents and first pages, it looks like strong evidence to me! I also read books on proofs for the scientific proofs for God, my favorite is New Proofs for the Existence of God by Robert Spitzer.
Sure, it may make it possible for me to work myself up into a stupor and have all kinds of gnarly daydreams, but that doesn’t make it any more true than any other mythology that I could use as the basis of such daydreams.
See above.
Yeah, you have a nice day too.
If I were in your position, AntiTheist, I would be chastising O-Man as much as everyone else on this forum. He is, after all, supposed to be another intellectually superior, morally and politically correct atheist, isn’t he?

Thomas Jefferson believed in God, I might add. And Jesus, he just didn’t think he was divine.
 
I would reply that people of all kinds of religions and mystical inclinations report having visions. It is not all that difficult to work up some mental enthusiasm and generate strong daydreams (or mild hallucinations).

Your “visions” mean as much to me as the visions of some Hindu mystics. They’re not evidence of anything except your overactive imagination.

And there we have it. Christianity, like other religions, requires you to accept claims that are not justified by evidence.

I don’t think that accepting claims that are not justified by evidence is a good way to go about deciding what’s true.

Sure, it may make it possible for me to work myself up into a stupor and have all kinds of gnarly daydreams, but that doesn’t make it any more true than any other mythology that I could use as the basis of such daydreams.

Yeah, you have a nice day too.
Antitheist, please present your evidence justifying your claims. I haven’t been able to find your credible support and I am most interested in reviewing your resources.
 
I would reply that people of all kinds of religions and mystical inclinations report having visions. It is not all that difficult to work up some mental enthusiasm and generate strong daydreams (or mild hallucinations).

Your “visions” mean as much to me as the visions of some Hindu mystics. They’re not evidence of anything except your overactive imagination.

And there we have it. Christianity, like other religions, requires you to accept claims that are not justified by evidence.

I don’t think that accepting claims that are not justified by evidence is a good way to go about deciding what’s true.

Sure, it may make it possible for me to work myself up into a stupor and have all kinds of gnarly daydreams, but that doesn’t make it any more true than any other mythology that I could use as the basis of such daydreams.

Yeah, you have a nice day too.
Well, now that you have that off of your chest. I just wanted to say that although, I have nothing for you that you would recognize as evidence of truth. You certainly have provided me with plenty of evidence. You have help this prophecy given years ago come true once again: John 15:20 Remember the word that I said to you, ‘a servant is not greater then his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you;
Jesus was of course talking to his disciples of that time but many more scriptures would support he also talking to us today.
And for that I must give you my sincere THANK YOU.👍
 
I find it interesting that you assume that we don’t believe that the Hindu mystics were experiencing something from the spiritual world.
 
Wow! You are prolific, AntiTheist.
Not being on these boards much I didn’t realize just how prolific you were starting new threads on non-belief and participating in all these different discussions that revolve around the same ideas, mainly, that if one can’t provide scientific proof for God, then there is no reason to believe in Him or that He created the universe or that He created you and is concerned about every detail of your life and that He sent His Only-Begotten Son into the world to bring salvation, for we have wandered away from Him.

So what is your purpose in this furious writing on this board? To convince Catholics we are wrong? Or to convince yourself that you are right?
 
Wow! You are prolific, AntiTheist.
Not being on these boards much I didn’t realize just how prolific you were starting new threads on non-belief and participating in all these different discussions that revolve around the same ideas, mainly, that if one can’t provide scientific proof for God, then there is no reason to believe in Him or that He created the universe or that He created you and is concerned about every detail of your life and that He sent His Only-Begotten Son into the world to bring salvation, for we have wandered away from Him.

So what is your purpose in this furious writing on this board? To convince Catholics we are wrong? Or to convince yourself that you are right?
I don’t mean to be disrespectful, but is this really relevant?

If AntiTheist brings up good points for us to consider, why do his motivations matter?

Obviously you are free to ask him what you want, but I personally don’t care about his motivations. His objections to theism are out there and whatever his motivations they will still need to be refuted.

Of course, you can ask him what you wish. But his answer doesn’t really matter to me, personally.
 
Wow! You are prolific, AntiTheist.
Not being on these boards much I didn’t realize just how prolific you were starting new threads on non-belief and participating in all these different discussions that revolve around the same ideas, mainly, that if one can’t provide scientific proof for God, then there is no reason to believe in Him or that He created the universe or that He created you and is concerned about every detail of your life and that He sent His Only-Begotten Son into the world to bring salvation, for we have wandered away from Him.

So what is your purpose in this furious writing on this board? To convince Catholics we are wrong? Or to convince yourself that you are right?
Ad Hom only hurts your position for the careful thinker.

Give it another go, but refrain from the very dangerous Ad Hom. It backfires on you.

Questioning motives is another issue you may take some time rethinking, in your spare time.
 
*I would reply that people of all kinds of religions and mystical inclinations report having visions. It is not all that difficult to work up some mental enthusiasm and generate strong daydreams (or mild hallucinations).

Your “visions” mean as much to me as the visions of some Hindu mystics. They’re not evidence of anything except your overactive imagination.
My misguided friend, I must point out that with all due respect, by your demands and adopted opinions you yourself live and present your position by a double standard. Whether you acknowledge it or not, you have selectively chosen not to believe in God because of the necessary required faith, demanding physical proof. In reality you know man, including yourself, can not go through life without faith in many matters, as for example, faith in other people in the relationships you are, have, or will be involved in or in matters such as attempting self advancement in some aspect of your life of which you can not know the outcome in advance. Further, you place acceptance in many aspects of recorded history that you at times will refer to as valid in order to support yourself in denying faith or the Church in one way or other while claiming history that is in support of the Church or faith is invalid, yet you have no physical evidence to prove the historic claims you do accept are factual.

In this response, you do not offer an opinion based on fact supported by physical evidence at all but rather present your conclusion that such events are blanket evidence of an over active imagination. This you could not know or credibly suggest as fact as no such determination in any field of science has offered physical proof let alone any other form of proof to such a conclusion. In fact, in some cases not all of course, science has determined such events are undoubtedly of a supernatural nature and can not be dismissed as imagination. That leaves your statement incorrect and your opinion solely reflective of unsupported bias due to your inability to maintain an open mind for learning and seeking truth.
*And there we have it. Christianity, like other religions, requires you to accept claims that are not justified by evidence.
I don’t think that accepting claims that are not justified by evidence is a good way to go about deciding what’s true.
Sure, it may make it possible for me to work myself up into a stupor and have all kinds of gnarly daydreams, but that doesn’t make it any more true than any other mythology that I could use as the basis of such daydreams.
Again, I do not suggest that all claims of visions are supernatural in nature however this position of yours is not based on proven sciences or supported by physical evidence, but rather an opinion based on lack of faith rather than the acceptance of faith. In fact, neither you nor anyone else can prove “faith” or the existence of God is misguided as there has never been such physical discoveries to support such a claim. There have been numerous discoveries in many fields of science that have supported the determination of supernatural “vision” and events as such, as well as many historical events and places once believed to have been myths in scripture, such as the city of David, not mythical at all but fact based on their discoveries. That leads to the credible conclusion that your position has no support while Faith and religious beliefs in the existence of God are far more credible and desirable.
None of my post here is meant to be belittling, just factual without the concern for political correctness as a priority above reality.

I am confident no human being including yourself can proceed through life without vesting faith in someone or something countless times along the way, and I am equally aware that you refer to other matters of historic record as credible although they have no more physical evidence (at times less) than that which you deny credible for lack of physical evidence. Some such as yourself develop their biased opinions as the result of disillusionment. In some cases because they “tried” or “claimed” to believe in God but when it came time to ask something of Him, they didn’t get the desired response they thought they “deserved”.

Whatever the case, you are not “given” enough physical evidence for you to accept the existence of God, but in reality, you have to deny many things to the positive and accept many things against your own argument to get to your position. But then you wouldn’t be here in this forum if you didn’t already know that.
 
Ad Hom only hurts your position for the careful thinker.

Give it another go, but refrain from the very dangerous Ad Hom. It backfires on you.

Questioning motives is another issue you may take some time rethinking, in your spare time.
I really didn’t mean to sound snarky. It wasn’t an Ad Hom attack. In fact, I’ve been communicating with AntiTheist and others of a similar persuasion in a very amiable manner. Sometimes the conversation may get a bit passionate about making certain points. In any case, I mean well and enjoy conversing with both believers and non-believers.

I do want to point out that many non-believers seem to fall into categories of either scientism, dualism, New Age, Gnosticism and various heresies, and it’s very hard to get them to see the other side. Let me tell you, it’s hard to get to the other side without that “leap of faith” discussed in some of the older books on theology. I, too, considered myself an atheist/agnostic from college on for a little while and couldn’t conceive of what I called “irrational beliefs” and thinking. It took a lot of thinking, reading and evaluating to finally be able to make that leap. In fact, it took the work of God to first decide “there must be a God.” It took a few years later for me to read the 4 gospels straight through and fall in love with Jesus Christ.

I’m sorry if I’m not relevant to the topic, but there are so many pages, I just read a few.
I wish the best for all–both believers and non-believers. 👍
 
I don’t mean to be disrespectful, but is this really relevant?

If AntiTheist brings up good points for us to consider, why do his motivations matter?

Obviously you are free to ask him what you want, but I personally don’t care about his motivations. His objections to theism are out there and whatever his motivations they will still need to be refuted.

Of course, you can ask him what you wish. But his answer doesn’t really matter to me, personally.
Please first read what I responded to StrawberryJam.

I just want to point out regarding your post that sometimes it helps to understand one’s motivations to get the full picture. When a non-believer really analyzes his/her motivations, that person may find they stand in the way of being open to belief.

But I understand that it is a good idea to stick to the topic, OP. Sorry for barging in with irrelevant material. 😊
 
The “argument from visions” is more often used in light of other historical evidence (which we have) or to prove the supernatural (ANY God, not just ours/the Hindu one).
The existence of many “mystics” having visions of all sorts of mutually exclusive gods (which can’t all be correct) tells us for a fact that some of these mystics are wrong – some of them must be working themselves up into a fervor and “seeing” their own fevered imaginations.

We know that some of them must be wrong; I don’t know of a good reason to suppose that any of them are right.
Oh ho ho! But we have evidence! Someone above mentioned Dr. N.T. Wright, a New Testament Scholar. I recently ordered an 800 Page book by him written only to prove the Resurrection. And I haven’t opened it yet, but from the table of contents and first pages, it looks like strong evidence to me!
Is this a joke of some kind? Your evidence is a book you haven’t read?
If I were in your position, AntiTheist, I would be chastising O-Man as much as everyone else on this forum. He is, after all, supposed to be another intellectually superior, morally and politically correct atheist, isn’t he?
Being an atheist doesn’t mean you’re right about everything – but anyway, how other people behave on these forums lies entirely outside of my scope of concern.
Thomas Jefferson believed in God, I might add. And Jesus, he just didn’t think he was divine.
That’s highly debatable, but even if so, what relevance does that have? A person can be right about some things and not right about other things.
 
So what is your purpose in this furious writing on this board? To convince Catholics we are wrong? Or to convince yourself that you are right?
Well, since you asked – and since everyone’s just dying to know – my “purpose” is that I enjoy writing on this subject. I enjoy thinking through arguments and thinking about why people believe the things that they believe.

I’m not really out to “convince” anyone, which I recognize as a pretty fruitless endeavor. If my comments help people sort some things out for themselves, that would be nice, I suppose.
 
The existence of many “mystics” having visions of all sorts of mutually exclusive gods (which can’t all be correct) tells us for a fact that some of these mystics are wrong – some of them must be working themselves up into a fervor and “seeing” their own fevered imaginations.

We know that some of them must be wrong; I don’t know of a good reason to suppose that any of them are right.
OK, but if one has a random one, and one has one of a person a day after his tomb if found empty after he dies a painful (and certain) death, would you not have the slightest thought the latter was actually having a real, supernatural, vision?
Is this a joke of some kind? Your evidence is a book you haven’t read?
I read its reviews (critical and positive), I read the first chapter, and I read the table of contents. I’ll tell you when I finish, it may be awhile because I don’t have much independent reading time with school and whatnot, and its 800+ pages, so, yeah.
Being an atheist doesn’t mean you’re right about everything – but anyway, how other people behave on these forums lies entirely outside of my scope of concern.
But being an atheist who asserts atheists are morally and intellectually superior, as the major atheist apologists who you seem to follow do, would it not be wise to demonstrate this claim?
That’s highly debatable, but even if so, what relevance does that have? A person can be right about some things and not right about other things.
I question how you can call it debatable, but anyway, the second part of that assertion can be turned against the assertion Jefferson makes in your quote as much as it can the assertions (on God’s existence) he makes in his letters.
 
Well, since you asked – and since everyone’s just dying to know – my “purpose” is that I enjoy writing on this subject. I enjoy thinking through arguments and thinking about why people believe the things that they believe.

I’m not really out to “convince” anyone, which I recognize as a pretty fruitless endeavor. If my comments help people sort some things out for themselves, that would be nice, I suppose.
I think your reasoning is excellent and appears honestly shared. With that said, have you ever asked why some people do not believe some of the things they do not believe? In such issues as yours for instance, you are not lacking in intelligence, that is clear, yet in the case of the existence of God, you demand physical proof as though it would be a good thing for God to possess the attributes of man so you could experience Him sense perceptibly. Yet the attributes of man are limited and frequently his attempts at making “improvements” self damaging, not at all having a good track record to be considered a creator of all things. Certainly not the “being” to hold confidence in when it comes to the opinion “there is no God“.

The following may sound biased against man but it is not if factually considered, so please bare with me a bit here. As proven through most of man’s endeavors, the majority if not all that we do to “improve” our lives, which more often than not means to make our lives easier and more convenient, results in the destruction of ecosystems, the atmosphere, the overall environment, the unnecessary extinction of life forms, and/or causes side effects or destruction one way or another to ourselves. That is not negativity, but fact. The more “intelligent” we claim to become the more threatening our mistakes become. This is because we, in general, are arrogant. This is not to say man has done nothing to improve his way of life in some ways, but rather to point out those things that have shown themselves beneficial to the existence of man have not been driven by man’s devotion to the production of conveniences, or what methods are most convenient to get to the end result.

Nature (that which God created) has frequently proven to possess more medicinal substances free of side effects (when not abused) than man made chemically based pharmaceuticals for instance, yet the pharmaceutical companies more frequently concentrate on man-made chemical substances because they are more convenient to obtain or manufacture and easier to produce, rather than to locate and identify natural holistic substances.

If you consider these things, you may find that nature has never threatened life, the environment or man to the degree man consistently threatens everything around him and it is most greatly attributed to the quest for convenience. The question should be considered, what is it man has really accomplished with the formation of this “advanced modern society” we have created today, in comparison to what society once was when man relied on that which nature provided alone. Or, worded another way, did we go far off the appropriate course by abusing what God gave us rather than learning and utilizing that which God already provided us? Would we not have advanced further if we concentrated on the identification and development of natural holistic substances and on the quality of life rather than the manufacturing of man made substances and articles of convenience? It may seem an odd pondering but would we and the overall environment not be in a much better state of wellness had we remained more devoted to natural forms of transportation? After all, it has virtually only taken us 200 years to cause the damage we have caused to the environment and man himself with the popularity and convenience of modern transportation and when you consider 200 years in contrast to the span of recorded history of man alone, we have shown proficiency in ignorance.

What I am pointing out, is you deny the existence of God because you claim you do not have physical evidence of His existence, yet you do but refuse to look more deeply into it. You do not hold such stringent requirements to many, many other beliefs you accept also having no physical evidence. This is not to belittle you but to point out to you your disbelief in God is not based on fact or physical evidence or even the same level “qualifiers” you employ in other matters. Man has proven how intellectually ignorant he can be (ignorant due to advanced knowledge), and it is the discovery of that ignorance in most scholarly atheistic converts that leads to their opening their mind and looking beyond the material sense perceptible aspects of life.

Man proves man can do nothing if in opposition to God’s design without causing his own afflictions but doesn’t always realize it until he first recognizes God.
Man also knows nothing can come from nothing yet the path of physics is leading closer and closer to a non-elemental, deliberate, organized origin of the universe limitlessly incapable and far to intricate in the formulation of progressive life sustaining events to occur through happenstance, but possible only if produced by a supernatural intelligence, God.
The fact that there are so many variations to the world wide belief in God is not an indication there is no God, but rather evidence there must in fact be a God and man divided by social boundaries and experiential comprehensions has not arrived at a unified recognition of all aspects of that God. One first must realize there is a God before attempting to determine who has the most accurate understanding of Him or the most intimate relationship with Him.
 
Man proves man can do nothing if in opposition to God’s design without causing his own afflictions but doesn’t always realize it until he first recognizes God.
Why do you presume that God has a “design?” That is your projection. Man can know God, but it is the maturity of Insight, not religion, that informs us finally of the root of morality where it is not and intellectual assertion but a perception of Self.
Man also knows nothing can come from nothing yet the path of physics is leading closer and closer to a non-elemental, deliberate, organized origin of the universe limitlessly incapable and far to intricate in the formulation of progressive life sustaining events to occur through happenstance, but possible only if produced by a supernatural intelligence, God.
God to the intellect appears to be “nothing” as God in neither in the intellect nor the senses. This is why intellectual assertions to atheists will never have any useful result. In this instance, religion and atheism are in the same boat, as the both rely on the portion of awareness that is not conducive to direct perception.
The fact that there are so many variations to the world wide belief in God is not an indication there is no God, but rather evidence there must in fact be a God and man divided by social boundaries and experiential comprehensions has not arrived at a unified recognition of all aspects of that God. One first must realize there is a God before attempting to determine who has the most accurate understanding of Him or the most intimate relationship with Him.
That variety is no such thing. It is the evidence of immaturity in Conscious Awareness. The Perennial Philosophy has been consistent and clear since the beginning of history, cropping up in nearly every culture, time, and place regardless of circumstances, even religion or lack of it. This has happened even with instances of proponents not having literature or contact with other proponents. This would indicate a more fundamental Understanding than the contentious assertions of religions or atheisms based on more fleeting considerations, especially texts that are deteriorations of original Revelations gone bad through codification. Want a relationship with God? Too late: it IS. But one thought thought to be “yours” is the wall between Heaven and Earth. One can only go direct, even if it takes years of work. Or a moment of Grace. Religion has little to do with it, save by appearance to those who wish to view it that way.

I really liked your statements on the havoc we are wreaking on the planet. Your perceptions are, imho, very accurate, especially about the medicinal plants. Have you read Sastun by Rosita Arvigo? I came SO close to meeting her when I was in Belize!
 
I think the problem is that skeptics like AntiTheist have a vague distrust of the whole thing, so that, if I were to ask him, “What do you make of the empty tomb?”, he would probably deny that there was ever such an event. This is so obviously divorced from any scholarship or history on the issue, that it’s just hard to approach it in any serious way. What we have to do is just patiently dismantle the distrust by showing that it has no explanatory power, that it is inconsistent with what we know about the history. In other words, this kind of vague distrust makes the NT out to be a very weird and anachronistic document, indeed.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top