The Gospels are Myths (and other obvious observations)

[Garyjohn2]

All suspect at best, if not discredited.

Thanks, My day has so far been excellent.

Blessings,

Tuno

ALL writing at ALL times from ANYONE can be suspect. I can write you a personal letter right now, take a picture of me writing the letter with today’s newspaper in it, sign it, and mail it to you…and you can still suspect it is a forgery, or written by someone else.

We are talking about someone that lived 2,000 years ago, not 10,000 years ago. It’s not a leap of faith to know Jesus of Nazareth actually existed.

There comes a time when you have to ask yourself, how much evidence do you really need to be convinced…of anything?

 

[Pieman333272]

All suspect at best, if not discredited.

Thanks, My day has so far been excellent.

Blessings,

Tuno

I am not forcing you to believe. If you want to deny obvious historical and archeological evidence, some things so old we no longer have the original text/object/documentation, and tradition, be my guest. But I will tell you again we have all the evidence we need to prove that Jesus was a real, singular person, he was a moral teacher, he was crucified, and had followers who spread the words he spoke around the world, only to be imprisoned, tortured, and die and refuse to change their ways or admit he was not divine (he was).

Think about it today. With the threat of something as gentle compared to this as prison or lethal injection, most serial killers, gang members, terrorists and dictators will confess anything they did, change any belief, give up the rest of their group, offer to give up documents, money, evidence, and even their homes and families just to have a slightly higher chance of not being executed or living the rest of their years in prison. With the threat of torture, upside-down crucifixion, and being put in a flooding jail, wouldn’t you think Peter would admit lying if he was? We have proof he was imprisoned in the jail we think, and that he was crucified upside-down, too!

Just some food for thought.

 

[humble_catholic]

All suspect at best, if not discredited.

Thanks, My day has so far been excellent.

Blessings,

Tuno

As far as Josephus is concerned the bigger passage of Jesus could have been an interpolation if you approach it from a skeptics point of view and this was allready asked in a poll to the major historian experts of Josephus, but the second and smaller passage in Josephus isnt viewed as an interpolation(this is a whole other discussion that would take pages to discuss), in fact it is viewed as authentic because no christian writer would have referred to Jesus as the “so-called Christ”, and also would have used complimentary language while referring to james. The second passage is very solid as far as historical experts on Josephus are concerned, so to claim that there isnt authentic historical mention of Jesus outside the bible isnt true. The fact that should shock anyone that there was any mention of Jesus at all outside the bible. This lends favorably to the historicity of Jesus. Not to mention that Luke was a more accurate historian then any secular one of those times.

 

[LogisticsBranch]

. The failure of Paul to refer to any actual events in Jesus’ life and the way he refers to Him tend to promote this one.

AND

. The Gospels as myths, that is, as teaching tales, parables, or psycho-spiritual maps may. in the right hands, have greater transformative value than the Gospels as alleged history. They would then conform, as many understand them to, to a very real morphogenic process which we historically find culminated in a large number of individuals. These of course are dismissed by the Church by dint of the dogged and dogmatic insistence of the Jesus myth being history, as distinct from a traceable and documentable methodology now at least some 5500 years old. This is supported by the nature of the Identity statements in both the OT and NT which can be understood as statements by the speakers of accomplishing the state of non-dual Conscious Awareness. That is distinct from the ordinary subject/object simple awareness gained by humans at an event spuriously described in Christian terms as “The Fall.”

Tuno, regarding your comment noted as #1 above you best go to the VATICAN there you can roam around the website and locate the following about SAINT PAUL: The Apostle to the Gentiles, The Missionary Journeys, The Conversion to Christ, The Beginning of his Ministry, The Council, Towards Greece, The Beginnings of the Church, While in Jerusalem, The Journey in Captivity, and The Martyrdom in Rome which are to the far left of the following website. I will present only SAINT PAUL, HISTORICAL OVERVIEW:

He, who is called “the Apostle to the Gentiles”, that is, to the Nations, never actually met Jesus during his life in Jerusalem or along the roads of Galilee, like the Twelve Apostles. He is the first apostle to have the experience of only the Risen Christ, as all Christians will continue to have through the centuries. This man, who was both a Jew and a Roman citizen, was born in Tarsus (currently Eastern Turkey). After having received a rigorous teaching in the Law from Rabbi Gamaliel the Elder, he was given a specific mission to go and preach the Word of God to all human beings: first to Antioch and Asia Minor, later to Greece and Rome. With Paul, the words of the Prophet Micah, “…from Zion shall go forth instruction, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem” (Micah 4:2), were fulfilled in just a few years and in an ardent manner. The words “go forth” have a double meaning here. Paul will go forth to witness to the teaching received from his Fathers and his personal experience: Christ is Risen!

Paul is the most well-known figure of the first Christian generation, both for his Letters (seven were undoubtedly recognized to be authentic in the strict sense of the term) and for the story of his life described by Luke in the Acts of the Apostles. His Letters represent an extraordinary source of information for us. Nonetheless the figure of Paul remains mysterious. On the one hand, the Letters cover only fifteen years of his life, while on the other hand, the Acts, which chronicle his journeys, were written twenty years after his death in the apologetic tone of the day. Therefore, we will give preference to the data contained in Paul’s Letters and their chronology, which greatly coincide with the duration of his travels (for example, the date of the “Council of Jerusalem”).

It is very likely that Paul was about ten years younger than Jesus.
vatican.va/various/basiliche/san_paolo/en/san_paolo/san_paolo.htm

Regarding your comment as noted by me #2 above. I have already in previous pages along with other Catholics debunked this topic started by AntiTheist. It is a fact that “The Gospels” (BIBLE) are NOT myths.

The problem as I see it is that you, AntiTheist, and a few others are either too stuborn to admit it or are in denial of the truth. Furthermore, I am proud to be a woman! I’m quite fond of the APOSTOLIC LETTER, MULIERIS DIGNITATEM, OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF JOHN PAUL II ON THE DIGNITY AND VOCATION OF WOMEN ON THE OCCASION OF THE MARIAN YEAR. It is filled with Biblical references. Henceforth, I am not a MYTH.
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_15081988_mulieris-dignitatem_en.html.

God bless those who are doing a superb job protecting the Bible and Christianity! May God continue to bless you with love, peace, and joy. Thank you! Praise be to God!

 

[Windfish]

ALL writing at ALL times from ANYONE can be suspect. I can write you a personal letter right now, take a picture of me writing the letter with today’s newspaper in it, sign it, and mail it to you…and you can still suspect it is a forgery, or written by someone else.

We are talking about someone that lived 2,000 years ago, not 10,000 years ago. It’s not a leap of faith to know Jesus of Nazareth actually existed.

There comes a time when you have to ask yourself, how much evidence do you really need to be convinced…of anything?

Some people will always side with the conclusion that suits them, no matter how slim the probability. This is what skepticism is. It think it is idiotic, and it is impossible to have a discussion with such people.

 

[Walter_Maxey]

Walter Maxey, I will not deter from what I have already provided within this topic. (I suggest people, especially you, read those messages of mine and others who defend the Bible which is THE GOSPELS. Furthermore, I don’t wholeheartedly agree with your last post., especially with this comment, “I sense that at least some Catholics here might disagree with me (thereby agreeing with AntiTheist on this point).” Honestly that makes little sense to me because you are basically knocking down every Catholic that has been posting here to defend the Bible.

On the contrary, if you are engaging AntiTheist in his argument, trying to convince him (her?) that the Gospels are not myths, then it seems that you agree with his premise that the Gospels are meant to be conclusive evidence. He sets up that premise and attacks it with a logical argument. You appear to agree with his premise (that the Gospels were intended as evidence), and engage him on his turf. I’m suggesting to you that you need not agree with his premise. I’m suggesting that you put yourself at an argumentative disadvantage by agreeing with his premise.

I am suggesting, on the other hand, unlike you, that that premise is possibly not valid. That it is possible instead that the Gospels were meant as a teaching tool for the already convinced or the favorably inclined, and as a reference for Church leaders, and not as evidence 2000 years later.

I’m suggesting that the Bible flows from Church authority and Tradition, and that if AntiTheist doubts Church authority, then it is unlikely that he will trust the Bible regardless of its evidentiary value, which flows from something he doubts.

I will continue onward with more evidence!

Can you please point out with specificity the evidence? I started reading your quoted text, and I had a hard time wading through it to the evidence part.

 

[LogisticsBranch]

Some people will always side with the conclusion that suits them, no matter how slim the probability. This is what skepticism is. It think it is idiotic, and it is impossible to have a discussion with such people.

I agree. Looks like Walter is a skeptic too. I don’t have time to debate with him. If he can’t look through the comments and figure it out himself then I have no more to say to him except what I have written below. I honestly don’t think he wishes to examine what I and other Catholics have written and to me, he is having difficulty understanding from his last post to me on the previous page. Also, he may have forgetten what AntiTheist has also said:

There’s no other evidence that a ghost convinced Caesar to do it, other than stories that got passed on and written down.

I’m saying that this is analogous to the magic stories attributed to Christ: there’s not sufficient reason to think that they actually happened.

Some of us here have already given evidence that AntiTheist is wrong; physical evidence, rebuttal evidence, and testimonial evidence. Maybe Walter will eventually figure it out.

Now, I’m probably not the proper person to respond to AntiTheist, because my faith is not based on a logical conclusion demanded by an analysis of evidence gathered in the past. Rather, my faith is a forward looking choice based on the type of person I want to be, and the best way to get there, although I do recognize the 2000 years of consistent group theology of the Magisterium which, after enough thought, tends to trump my few decades-worth of single-brained analysis. Even so, given the above, and perhaps just for me personally, the proper response to the OP seems to be, “So what?”

Thoughts?

Yes, I know that. You are a revert Catholic as I noted. No logic necessary for your faith. As you said, “So what?” Because your faith is ‘a forward looking choice based on the type of person you want to be….’ However, the topic started by the OP Antitheist is “The Gospels are Myths (and other obvious observations). Also, I am not you. I am a die-hard old Catholic woman. Many participants including myself are defenders of The Gospels for reasons that are present throughout this topic. Take the time to read them and explore the websites that have been provided. I call that in-house learning. As an adult I think that to be educational tools which are also evidence that our religion is based on reality, fact, and logic. Good luck, Walter. The person you see on this thread is just a part of who I am. I would not be the person I am today or have remained a Roman Catholic from childhood if it weren’t for the fact that I love God (The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), the Chruch, Popes, and all the evidence as a researcher that I have found and deposited on this topic=FAITH. I don’t waste my time here. Best wishes to you on your journey.

 

[twb1621]

All suspect at best, if not discredited.

Thanks, My day has so far been excellent.

Blessings,

Tuno

It seems based on your "non"s listed under “religion” category in your header you claim to not believe in much at all, regardless of the subject. Perhaps you have had some bad experiences in life that led you to this position, I could not know. But it seems sad for anyone to have such an apparent synical attribute as to deny the belief in such things based on the use of partial contents of the writings and other historic facts already supported by most scholars. Over the last 20 years the contents of these documents have been determined historically credible evidence in the existence, life and belief by the disciples in the resurrection, and continued discipleship of Christianity. Only a few scholars hold out and as time goes on, more and more archeological discoveries verify a greater and greater protion of the beliefs passed on in the Catholic Faith with not one proof against it. The only thing left for those who reject out of bias and the hope there is no God, it theory that ignore some of the facts in order to make it seem somewhat questionable. That is just wanton ignorance to history. If one wishes to disbelieve this history based on the flimsey reasoning used, 80% of all history would be discredited yet it is selective to Christianity and the existence of Christ. That is nothing more than desperation.

This information is also addressed to all our visiting skeptics who think the only writings that verify the existence of Jesus is in scripture. Have no doubts, I am familier with the objections and their lack of credibility:

Josephus, Jewish historian, Antiquities. 18.3, 18.64
Ancient sources:
Book XVIII “3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.”

Cornelius Tacitus, (AD 55 - 117)The Annals (15.44) Ancient roman Historian and Politician
“Such indeed were the precautions of human wisdom. The next thing was to seek means of propitiating the gods, and recourse was had to the Sibylline books, by the direction of which prayers were offered to Vulcanus, Ceres, and Proserpina. Juno, too, was entreated by the matrons, first, in the Capitol, then on the nearest part of the coast, whence water was procured to sprinkle the fane and image of the goddess. And there were sacred banquets and nightly vigils celebrated by married women. But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.
Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man’s cruelty, that they were being destroyed.”

continued next post…

 

[twb1621]

All suspect at best, if not discredited.

continued from previous post:
Lucian de Samosata, Greek, (AD 120-180) rhetorician (somewhat like a trial attorney). Politician, historian, itinerant lecturer.(The Death of Peregrine, 11-13, 16)
“It was now that he came across the priests and scribes of the 11 Christians, in Palestine, and picked up their queer creed. I can tell you, he pretty soon convinced them of his superiority; prophet, elder, ruler of the Synagogue–he was everything at once; expounded their books, commented on them, wrote books himself. They took him for a God, accepted his laws, and declared him their president. The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day,–the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. Well, the end of it was that Proteus was arrested and thrown12 into prison. This was the very thing to lend an air to his favourite arts of clap-trap and wonder-working; he was now a made man. The Christians took it all very seriously: he was no sooner in prison, than they began trying every means to get him out again,–but without success. Everything else that could be done for him they most devoutly did. They thought of nothing else. Orphans and ancient widows might be seen hanging about the prison from break of day. Their officials bribed the gaolers to let them sleep inside with him. Elegant dinners were conveyed in; their sacred writings were read; and our old friend Peregrine (as he was still called in those days) became for them “the modern Socrates.” In some of the Asiatic 13 cities, too, the Christian communities put themselves to the expense of sending deputations, with offers of sympathy, assistance, and legal advice. The activity of these people, in dealing with any matter that affects their community, is something extraordinary; they spare no trouble, no expense. Peregrine, all this time, was making quite an income on the strength of his bondage; money came pouring in. You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on trust, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.”

(16) “Proteus now set out again on his wanderings. The Christians16 were meat and drink to him; under their protection he lacked nothing, and this luxurious state of things went on for some time. At last he got into trouble even with them; I suppose they caught him partaking of some of their forbidden meats. They would have nothing more to do with him, and he thought the best way out of his difficulties would be, to change his mind about that property, and try and get it back. He accordingly sent in a petition to the emperor, suing for its restitution. But as the people of Parium sent up a deputation to remonstrate, nothing came of it all; he was told that as he had been under no compulsion in making his dispositions, he must abide by them.”

continued next post…

 

[twb1621]

All suspect at best, if not discredited.

Mara bar Serapion (Letter to his son – currently at British Museum), late 1st-3rd century

“What are we to say, when the wise are dragged by force by the hands of tyrants, and their wisdom is deprived of its freedom by slander, and they are plundered for their superior intelligence, without the opportunity of making a defence? They are not wholly to be pitied. For what benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death, seeing that they received as retribution for it famine and pestilence? Or the people of Samos by the burning of Pythagoras, seeing that in one hour the. whole of their country was covered with sand? Or the Jews by the murder of their Wise King (Christ, Jesus), seeing that from that very time their kingdom was driven away from them? For with justice did God grant a recompense to the wisdom of all three of them. For the Athenians died by famine; and the people of Samos were covered by the sea without remedy; and the Jews, brought to desolation and expelled from their kingdom, are driven away into Every land. Nay, Socrates did “not” die, because of Plato; nor yet Pythagoras, because of the statue of Hera; nor yet the Wise King (Christ, Jesus), because of the new laws which he enacted.”

Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a), late 2nd century

There is a tradition (in a Barraitha): They hanged Yeshu on the Sabbath of the Passover. But for forty days before that a herald went in front of him (crying), “Yeshu is to be stoned because he practiced sorcery and seduced Israel and lead them away from God. Anyone who can provide evidence on his behalf should come forward to defend him.” When, however, nothing favorable about him was found, he was hanged on the Sabbath of the Passover.
Ulla commented: “Do you think that he belongs among those for whom redeeming evidence is sought? Rather, he was a seducer [of whom] the All-merciful has said: ‘Show them no pity… and do not shield them.’ (Deut 13.8b NRSV) In Yeshu’s case, however, an exception was made because he was close to those who held [political/religious] authority.”

It has been determined by the majority of today’s scholars that these accounts are valid (non-Biblical and or non-Christian) ancient writings verifying the life of Jesus and as related, His disciples beliefs of His resurrection from the Dead.

 

[humble_catholic]

continued from previous post:
Lucian de Samosata, Greek, (AD 120-180) rhetorician (somewhat like a trial attorney). Politician, historian, itinerant lecturer.(The Death of Peregrine, 11-13, 16)
“It was now that he came across the priests and scribes of the 11 Christians, in Palestine, and picked up their queer creed. I can tell you, he pretty soon convinced them of his superiority; prophet, elder, ruler of the Synagogue–he was everything at once; expounded their books, commented on them, wrote books himself. They took him for a God, accepted his laws, and declared him their president. The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day,–the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. Well, the end of it was that Proteus was arrested and thrown12 into prison. This was the very thing to lend an air to his favourite arts of clap-trap and wonder-working; he was now a made man. The Christians took it all very seriously: he was no sooner in prison, than they began trying every means to get him out again,–but without success. Everything else that could be done for him they most devoutly did. They thought of nothing else. Orphans and ancient widows might be seen hanging about the prison from break of day. Their officials bribed the gaolers to let them sleep inside with him. Elegant dinners were conveyed in; their sacred writings were read; and our old friend Peregrine (as he was still called in those days) became for them “the modern Socrates.” In some of the Asiatic 13 cities, too, the Christian communities put themselves to the expense of sending deputations, with offers of sympathy, assistance, and legal advice. The activity of these people, in dealing with any matter that affects their community, is something extraordinary; they spare no trouble, no expense. Peregrine, all this time, was making quite an income on the strength of his bondage; money came pouring in. You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on trust, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.”

(16) “Proteus now set out again on his wanderings. The Christians16 were meat and drink to him; under their protection he lacked nothing, and this luxurious state of things went on for some time. At last he got into trouble even with them; I suppose they caught him partaking of some of their forbidden meats. They would have nothing more to do with him, and he thought the best way out of his difficulties would be, to change his mind about that property, and try and get it back. He accordingly sent in a petition to the emperor, suing for its restitution. But as the people of Parium sent up a deputation to remonstrate, nothing came of it all; he was told that as he had been under no compulsion in making his dispositions, he must abide by them.”

continued next post…

More focus should be put on tacitus, my reason for saying this is that most people do not know what historians (especially tacitus experts) have known for centuries and that is that Tacitus was one of the most thorough and rigurous historians of those times and it was highly likely that he was granted access to the roman archives. The fact that he wrote anything at all about Jesus is amazing in and of itself and he didnt window dress his feelings. Most atheists tend to ignore all of these things and try to twist it around to ask why there isnt more about Jesus outside the bible. What more can anyone need then what we have all presented on this forum? We stand by our assertions that no other religion on earth has the kind of historicity that we have presented here. Our religion has withstood the test of historicty , acheological finds and the test of time.

 

[AntiTheist]

I noticed that we seem to have found something about which AntiTheist and most Catholics here agree: the Gospels were intended to be “convincing evidence” (as opposed to teaching aides for the ready convinced, or at least for those already inclined towards belief).

This is the most interesting point to emerge from this thread, and I’m glad you brought it up, Walter.

I actually do agree that the Gospels were probably not written to be tools for convincing people – that is, they’re not rigorous arguments for belief. They were the written records of the oral tradition of a cult that probably constructed its legends on the back of a real person (or possibly group of people) who taught many of the things ascribed to the mythical Christ.

They’re meant to “convince” others only in the sense that strong emotional appeals are ever meant to convince anyone of anything.

let’s face it, is it really all that unreasonable to be at least initially skeptical about 2000 year old hearsay written in a time when accuracy in historical writings was not the highest priority?

Nicely put.

after all, I don’t think we believe the Gospels because of the writings themselves; rather, I think we believe them because we acknowledge the authority of the organization that wrote them and compiled them in the 4th century).

Well, ok. If everyone on this thread agrees to this, then it’s time to start a new thread: why do you accept the authority of this organization?

Thanks for a thoughtful post.

 

[Garyjohn2]

Well, ok. If everyone on this thread agrees to this, then it’s time to start a new thread: why do you accept the authority of this organization?

There are a couple answers to this I think.

The secular answer (and probably the one you’re looking for) would be that they were close to the source time in question. For example, if someone in the year 3824 A.D. wanted to learn about the American Revolution, they could pick up a history textbook published in the year 2010, and we know (because we live in this time) that the book would be trustworthy and accurate, being written just 300 years after the event…as opposed to a history book written in 3800 A.D. Likewise, we, in the year 2010, trust the sources and judgement of those people living in the 300’s A.D. who put together the scriptures we use today. They were much closer to the event in question, and in a position to document it. It would be close enough to the events in question to be accurate, but far enough removed to have proper hind-sight and identify forgeries and false gospels (which were circulating widely, creating confusion…the reason the council was formed in the first place).

The council members would also have been of the most educated people of the time and area, and the ones in the best position to make the decisions they did. So I guess “right place, right time, right people.” There was a lot of debate and research done at the council, they made their decision, and now we trust that decision. Living 1600 years later than they, we are in no way in a position to make a better desicion, in my opion. They were in the perfect place.

The religious answer is that they were a part of the church that Christ founded, and therefore guided by the Holy Spirit in their judgements and decisions, which were to guide the hearts of millions and entire nations for millenia to come. Pretty important stuff!

 

[Sante]

Guided by the “Holy Spirit”?

Why then is the Bible filled with thousands of errors and contradictions? How can that be “inspired”?

The first paragraph is wrong in Genesis. It’s all downhill thereafter.

Light was “created” before the Sun was. ??

 

[Luke_K]

Well, ok. If everyone on this thread agrees to this, then it’s time to start a new thread: why do you accept the authority of this organization?

I don’t agree with it completely. The Gospels were chosen by the Catholic Church for the canon because they were considered the most historically accurate and theologically consistent with each other. To say that we believe in the Gospels because of someone’s authority is like saying that I believe a book is worthwhile just because I have the authority to decide that it’s worthwhile.

We appeal to the authority of the Catholic Church only to learn what scripture is inspired, not what is most historically true. Incidentally (if I remember my high school education correctly), historical reliability was a factor in choosing the canon.

I accept the authority of the Catholic Church because its bishops are successors from the original apostles, the pope is the successor of Peter of whom it is recorded that Jesus said he would found his Church on and protect from error, and its doctrines are the same as that of the earliest Christians, which we can tell by reading the Fathers and the biblical books themselves.

 

[NaturalEnquirer]

According to modern cosmology, light did indeed precede the sun.

 

[Garyjohn2]

Guided by the “Holy Spirit”?

Why then is the Bible filled with thousands of errors and contradictions? How can that be “inspired”?

The first paragraph is wrong in Genesis. It’s all downhill thereafter.

Light was “created” before the Sun was. ??

I don’t know what you are talking about. It’s like you’re speaking a foreign language to me. I don’t know of any errors…and thousands would require like 2 per page. That’s a pretty bold statement in itself.

You think the sun is and ever was the only source of light in the universe…and beyond?

 

[Sante]

“as time goes on, more and more archeological discoveries verify a greater and greater protion of the beliefs passed on in the Catholic Faith with not one proof against it”

Are you lying on purpose or just ignorant of the facts?

A true statement would be this…

as time goes on, more and more archeological discoveries disprove a greater and greater portion of the beliefs passed on in the Catholic Faith with not one proof for it.

For just one example, there is no evidence for a Moses or an exodus. None.

 

[Garyjohn2]

“as time goes on, more and more archeological discoveries verify a greater and greater protion of the beliefs passed on in the Catholic Faith with not one proof against it”

Are you lying on purpose or just ignorant of the facts?

A true statement would be this…

as time goes on, more and more archeological discoveries disprove a greater and greater portion of the beliefs passed on in the Catholic Faith with not one proof for it.

For just one example, there is no evidence for a Moses or an exodus. None.

You are wrong…can you name any archeological discoveries that have disproved a catholic teaching? So far, archeological discoveries have proved the historical events in the Bible…I know these some of these discoveries relate to the hittites, babylonians, and portions of Jerusalem that support a real king David. You gotta pick up a book, and keep up with recent news!

 

[Sante]

Gary,

You are an example of why I’m on this site. To get some people to think for themselves. Religious people are simply just victims of misinformation. You won’t hear this stuff from your pastor although many of them (not all) do know what I’m referring to. Many just go with the flow as they have invested too much time into their vocation. Some do choose to walk away.

Read the passage in Genesis again. Clearly the earth was created from the Sun. We know this 100%. How can light exist on Earth if the Sun wasn’t created first? Is “God” the author of error? This is but one small example as the books of the Bible are littered with these types of errors and contradictions. Granted many contradictions can be explained away, by assuming certain things. Many more are problematic.

skepticsannotatedbible.com/index.htm