The Gospels are Myths (and other obvious observations)

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Always ask for primary sources when these “similarities” are used in an argument. Most of the time, the primary sources for these similarities occur some three or four centuries after the Gospels, which means they copied Christianity, not the other way around. And this is not surprising, pagan myths do this all the time, with each village or city having their own versions, often contradictory to each other, and often being updated. A popular example for this is Horus, and the similarities have been hopelessly debunked by both Christians and atheists.
Uhhh…no. Of course they are not exact plagiarisms. But if in one story someone is resurrected and in another story someone is resurrected, then is that not a similarity? Or what are you calling a similarity or not??? And if one story is 4K years old, how is it copied from Christianity? Please explain. Or is there fishy in the wind? 🙂
 
Yes, and what does one suppose the similarities to stem from? And there being similarities such as, and I’m sorry I don’t remember where I read it now, the Egyptians of one town parading a creche through the streets on December 25th, among many others, why are there so many? Even the Ituri pygmies of Congo, who in their long oral history had no contact with Christianity, worship a savior born of a virgin who performed miracles, died ignominiously and rose again. Why are there so many similar stories?

Personally I don’t think it matters, because the process of moving past faith is now quite well understood and widely known, if not appreciated, especially with those who have an investment in the major religions. But those are known to be incomplete in their teachings. So what is the connection between all these stories and that which actually is known by experience to work?
Who knows why there are so many similar stories. Just because you have similar stories, doesn’t necessarily mean they are the same, or stem from the same origin.

“In the final analysis, nobody has been able to prove these things regarding a doctrine of the Catholic faith, or even its officially authorized practices. The charge of paganism just doesn’t work.”

catholic.com/library/Is_Catholicism_Pagan.asp
 
Having read the last few pages of this interesting thread, I don’t believe anyone brought up the Old Testament Messianic Prophecies fulfilled by Jesus of Nazareth (unless it was already accomplished on earlier pages).

“Beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He (Jesus) explained to them what was said in all the scriptures concerning himself.” (Luke 24:27)

There are the prophecies that the Messiah must come from the line of David. These begin with the book of 2nd Samuel, which was written 10 centuries before Christ. Chapter 7 verses 16 and 17 state: “your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me; your throne will be established forever. Nathan reported to David all the words of this revelation.”

When we read the 132nd psalm vverse 11-12 “The Lord swore an oath to David, a sure oath that he will not revoke: One of yur own descendants I will place on your throne–if your sons keep my covenant and the statutes I teach them, then their sons will sit on your throne forever and every.”

Then you might consider reading the geneology of Christ which is in the 1st book of Matthew. Jesus, it shows, has fulfilled the requirements that the Messiah must be a descendant from the line of David. (There are other references to this prophecy).

The requirement that the Messiah must be born in Bethlehem as Jesus was, is stated in Micah 5:2 – “But though, Bethlehem Eprathah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judeah, yet out of thee shall He come forth . . .” That prophecy was in 750-710 B.C.

That Jeseph, Mary’s husband was of the family and lineage of David.

(There are more references in this regard. I just want to pick out a few to show that Jesus fulfilled the prophecies about Him in the O.T.)

There is the prophecy of the virgin birth. (several references)

The crucifixion (note the 22nd psalm; read Isaiah)
NOTE: “The Roman historian Tacitus confirms Pontiius Pilate’s punishment of Christ. The common Roman method was crucifixions as described in the N.T., thus the cross became the early Christian symbol.”

Then there’s Daniel’s prophecy of the destruction of the temple, Jerusalem, discontinuring sacrifices, killing the Messiah . . . Daniel lived as early as 530 years before Christ. He was inspired to write Dan. 9:24-27. "Seventy Sevens (490 years) are decreed for your people and your Holy City (Jerusalem) to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness . . . " (In the booklet I have, there is an explanation of the numbers referred to in Daniel).

In the Jewish Talmud, 50 years before Christ - Nehumias stated the Messiah would arrive withing 50 years. Approximately 70 years after Christ (70 A.D.) the Talmud advised that the Messiah must have come.

Then there’s Josephus’ War of the Jews Book VI, Chap.II "
which described how Titus Caesar attempted to avoid the destruction of the Temple and the discontinuation of the sacrifice. . . "

The resurrection is prophecied by Isaiah 700 years before Christ. And Psalm 16:10 over 900 years before Christ declares, “For thou will not leave my soul in (Sheol), neither will thou permit thine Holy One to see corruption.”

Also, check out Hosea 13:14 and 6:2.

There’s more, on the dispersion of the Jewish people, their return and the 2nd coming of Christ.
 
And if one story is 4K years old, how is it copied from Christianity? Please explain. Or is there fishy in the wind? 🙂
And how is it not? Or is it? How do you know? Fishy in the wind? Fly fishing no?
🤷
 
It would be very strange if there were no similarities between some of the events recorded in the Gospels and events in the numerous pagan myths and legends dating back thousands of years. They certainly have no bearing on the moral and spiritual teaching of Jesus which is inseparable from his life, mission, death and Resurrection…
It would be even more odd - in fact absurd - if God had not selected one particular tribe to be the Chosen People from whom the Son of Man was to bring the Good News to the entire world. Nor does the selection of the Jews imply that there is no truth in the teaching of other religions…
 
Tuno, though a larger percentage of your views I disagree with than those I agree with, I am fascinated by them nonetheless. How about this? I’ll let you hold your views on the resurrection, and you can let me hold mine. Either may or may not be supported by evidence, that, I (we?) will only know after research, if ever.

The experience is by no means contradictory to Christian beliefs! It seems to help it more than hinder it, but that’s my opinion.

To answer your final sentence, I don’t know where my life will lead me, but I know I might be a Priest, I might be a writer, I might be a programmer, and I might be something totally different. But I will always be Catholic. It’s just how I am, where the evidence, I believe, leads.
Thank you for this opportunity to discuss, I feel I’ve said all I need to say for now. 🙂
I have nothing to prove, Pieman, I am only stating my views, and am quite convinced that yours are totally sincere and honest from where you stand. Who wold have a problem with that? I simply have found it mandatory to have integrity within my own experience and decades of study, knowing full well that it is my experience, and I am totally responsible and answerable for it. I have been as sincere an honest with myself as I could when considering these questions, as I am sure you have. But how could it be surprising that with so many folks with different (name removed by moderator)uts and attributes, that we might have different conclusions as well?

I do know that Reality doesn’t change; that is its definition. And I do know that we don’t stop growing in awareness unless we deliberately construct obstacles or get adamantized in asserting rightness despite evidence. That is always my concern about faith paradigms and why I advocate self inquiry as a constant practice. But assertions are one thing; we must be clear on what they point to.

I have enjoyed our chats, and perhaps some day we might re-engage. In the mean time, Blessings and Best! 🙂
 
It would be very strange if there were no similarities between some of the events recorded in the Gospels and events in the numerous pagan myths and legends dating back thousands of years. They certainly have no bearing on the truth of the moral and spiritual teaching of Jesus which is inseparable from his life, mission, death and Resurrection…
Because there are spiritual truths that are recognised by human beings all over the world.
You in particular have pointed out the value of myths.
Personally I don’t think it matters, because the process of moving past faith is now quite well understood and widely known, if not appreciated, especially with those who have an investment in the major religions. But those are known to be incomplete in their teachings. So what is the connection between all these stories and that which actually is known by experience to work?
That we are all in need of spiritual enlightenment, inspiration and liberation from evil… “Man does not live by bread alone…”
 
It would be even more odd - in fact absurd - if God had not selected one particular tribe to be the Chosen People from whom the Son of Man was to bring the Good News to the entire world. Nor does the selection of the Jews imply that there is no truth in the teaching of other religions…
God is Universal and timeless, and selects one bitty tribe in the world, thousands of years after humans appear, to be the official Earth representative, while the rest of the world chances on bits and pieces? Hmmm…That is quite and advertising task, TR, no?
 
God is Universal and timeless, and selects one bitty tribe in the world, thousands of years after humans appear, to be the official Earth representative, while the rest of the world chances on bits and pieces? Hmmm…That is quite and advertising task, TR, no?
A privilege yes?👍
 
Having read the last few pages of this interesting thread, I don’t believe anyone brought up the Old Testament Messianic Prophecies fulfilled by Jesus of Nazareth (unless it was already accomplished on earlier pages).

“Beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He (Jesus) explained to them what was said in all the scriptures concerning himself.” (Luke 24:27)

There are the prophecies that the Messiah must come from the line of David. These begin with the book of 2nd Samuel, which was written 10 centuries before Christ. Chapter 7 verses 16 and 17 state: “your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me; your throne will be established forever. Nathan reported to David all the words of this revelation.”

When we read the 132nd psalm vverse 11-12 “The Lord swore an oath to David, a sure oath that he will not revoke: One of yur own descendants I will place on your throne–if your sons keep my covenant and the statutes I teach them, then their sons will sit on your throne forever and every.”

Then you might consider reading the geneology of Christ which is in the 1st book of Matthew. Jesus, it shows, has fulfilled the requirements that the Messiah must be a descendant from the line of David. (There are other references to this prophecy).

The requirement that the Messiah must be born in Bethlehem as Jesus was, is stated in Micah 5:2 – “But though, Bethlehem Eprathah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judeah, yet out of thee shall He come forth . . .” That prophecy was in 750-710 B.C.

That Jeseph, Mary’s husband was of the family and lineage of David.

(There are more references in this regard. I just want to pick out a few to show that Jesus fulfilled the prophecies about Him in the O.T.)

There is the prophecy of the virgin birth. (several references)

The crucifixion (note the 22nd psalm; read Isaiah)
NOTE: “The Roman historian Tacitus confirms Pontiius Pilate’s punishment of Christ. The common Roman method was crucifixions as described in the N.T., thus the cross became the early Christian symbol.”

Then there’s Daniel’s prophecy of the destruction of the temple, Jerusalem, discontinuring sacrifices, killing the Messiah . . . Daniel lived as early as 530 years before Christ. He was inspired to write Dan. 9:24-27. "Seventy Sevens (490 years) are decreed for your people and your Holy City (Jerusalem) to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness . . . " (In the booklet I have, there is an explanation of the numbers referred to in Daniel).

In the Jewish Talmud, 50 years before Christ - Nehumias stated the Messiah would arrive withing 50 years. Approximately 70 years after Christ (70 A.D.) the Talmud advised that the Messiah must have come.

Then there’s Josephus’ War of the Jews Book VI, Chap.II "
which described how Titus Caesar attempted to avoid the destruction of the Temple and the discontinuation of the sacrifice. . . "

The resurrection is prophecied by Isaiah 700 years before Christ. And Psalm 16:10 over 900 years before Christ declares, “For thou will not leave my soul in (Sheol), neither will thou permit thine Holy One to see corruption.”

Also, check out Hosea 13:14 and 6:2.

There’s more, on the dispersion of the Jewish people, their return and the 2nd coming of Christ.
Agreed. Good Job.
🙂
 
Elaborate Please.
😃
Story A, from 4 thousand years ago describes a resurrection event. Story B, two thousand years old, describes a similar resurrection event. They have several parallels. The claim has been made that the four thousand year old story is a copy of the two thousand year old story. I’m asking how that is possible. I don’t know how to make it any simpler than that,
 
Incidentally, there is in the article no mention of my favorite miracle in all of the Gospels – Matthew 27: 50-53:

Now, this event, if it actually happened, is the kind of thing that we would expect to see reported by other contemporary sources. And yet, curiously, there is absolutely no record of any contemporary person reporting anything of the sort.
Josephus:
  1. This curtain (katapetasma) was prior to this generation entire, because the people were pious; but now it was lamentable to look at. 2. It had, you should know, been suddenly rent from the top to the ground, when they delivered over to death through bribery the doer of good, the man—yea, him who through his doing was no man.
  1. And of many other signs they tell which came to pass at that time.
sacred-texts.com/chr/gno/gjb/gjb-3.htm

Talmud:
“Forty years before the Temple was destroyed * . . .the gates of the Hekel [Holy Place] opened by themselves, until Rabbi Yohanan B. Zakkai rebuked them [the gates] saying, Hekel, Hekel, why alarmist thou us? We know that thou art destined to be destroyed…” *
ensignmessage.com/archives/mysteriousevents.html
It is interesting to note that the Talmud reports the date as 30 A.D., which has been calculated as the year of Jesus’ crucifixion.
 
How much do you know about the Talmud, john8312? I have heard from others that, among scholars today, not a lot of resources are being devoted to studying it and the accompanying Jewish texts which mention Christ and the early Christians quite a lot. I have heard from several Jews, even, that scholarship on it is discouraged because it supposedly reveals that the Jews at the time were much more complicit in the execution of Jesus than previously thought. I have also read several articles which reported that the Talmud makes mention of early forms of the Gospel of Matthew, which seems to support the traditional view on the authorship and timeline of the gospels. Have you or anyone else studied this? Know a good book on it?

One other note: there have been a lot of discoveries within the past few years that should have had a lot of impact on Biblical scholarship, but it seems that, if you support a more traditional view, your scholarly papers are simply ignored. No one reads them. EG: amazon.com/Eyewitness-Jesus-Matthew-DAncona/dp/0385480512/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=I2JF2OEOPIFC9Z&colid=2K2UGHLI04GRD. Like everything else, it takes a long time to penetrate groupthink. 🤷
 
Story A, from 4 thousand years ago describes a resurrection event. Story B, two thousand years old, describes a similar resurrection event. They have several parallels. The claim has been made that the four thousand year old story is a copy of the two thousand year old story. I’m asking how that is possible. I don’t know how to make it any simpler than that,
Sorry, what I meant is, what particular story are you referring to with story A and Story B. I understand what you are trying to say, I think my question was a little vague.🤷
 
God is Universal and timeless, and selects one bitty tribe in the world, thousands of years after humans appear, to be the official Earth representative, while the rest of the world chances on bits and pieces? Hmmm…That is quite an advertising task, TR, no?
Yes and it has been very successful when you consider the enormity of the task.

What is your solution? Leave everyone to work out everything on their own? 🙂
 
How much do you know about the Talmud, john8312? I have heard from others that, among scholars today, not a lot of resources are being devoted to studying it and the accompanying Jewish texts which mention Christ and the early Christians quite a lot. I have heard from several Jews, even, that scholarship on it is discouraged because it supposedly reveals that the Jews at the time were much more complicit in the execution of Jesus than previously thought. I have also read several articles which reported that the Talmud makes mention of early forms of the Gospel of Matthew, which seems to support the traditional view on the authorship and timeline of the gospels. Have you or anyone else studied this? Know a good book on it?
I’m not sure what your sources are but I’m afraid you will be disappointed concerning references to your messiah and early Christians in the Talmud.

see: talmud.faithweb.com/articles/jesusnarr.html
 
What is your solution? Leave everyone to work out everything on their own? 🙂
Really, isn’t that what happens anyway? Mankind is, say, 40K years old as Homo sap. Two thousand years ago, “Christianity” starts. Today, about a sixth of the population is nominally Catholic, statistically half of those not really fully practicing, or at odds with some fundamental tenet such as transubstantiation or dogma such as birth control. Serendipitously, I just found 14 major creation myths from different cultures, the Abrahamic being only one of them. So there is a “wedge” of Catholics in the population from 0 around 1CE to about, nominally, one billion today, but about half that given deviation from Teaching. And most Catholics are now in the lesser educated Southern hemisphere as Catholic population by% in the US, and Europe, I suspect, decline in lay and clerical numbers. See here.

The practicing Catholics I know constitute a variety of belief systems that loosely agree on some points of the mainline teaching of the Church, and having gone through the Catholic school system through high school, I know darned well that there were few who are truly devout “traditional” Catholics and all those mostly continued in their disparate paths to this day, as far as I know. That is not even to mention the many psychologically bizarre groups claiming to be Catholic such as “Los Penitentes.” So whatever “strength” of numbers the Church claims, I personally have my doubts about it.

We can add to that that we know from the early days and the writings of the Church Fathers that the first task the Church had was to distinguish itself from the paganism that they admitted it was hard to tell themselves apart from. The ones who admitted to the similarities were in many cases conveniently anathematized. As for the body of the Church, it grew in this differentiation by proceeding with everything from slander and discreditation, through book burnings and bannings of cults, to downright death camp pogroms of non-Christians. All this got a boost when it became politically expedient in what, the third century? to be Christian by order of the Emperor. Now there is an holy, divinely sponsored advertising campaign to admire.

Let us go further and visit some of the great Saints. Eliminating all the ones in the roster who were imaginary, and discounting ones that were possibly wonderful people, the really great ones were fundamentally mysitics. If you read their words dispassionately they have transcended the form of the Church, having gone “direct,” one might say. And in fact, their statements are very uncomfortably identical with the words of mystics from other traditions, and even more uncomfortably to the words of men and women to this day who have arrived independently at nearly exactly similar conclusions through means other than devotional. If one reads such works as Love Poems from God, edited by Daniel Ladinsky, the introduction to Basic Self Knowledge by Harry Benjamin, The New Man by Maurice Nicoll, and many, many others, this becomes pretty clear even without having come to the fruition of the interior exercise of self observation as recommended from ancient times.

That Stream of congruently proponing mystics, the Saints and Sages of the ages, and “accidentals” have been with us from time immemorial. So for my part, I contend both from experience and study that God is everywhere and always available as Divine Self to those willing to go “beyond the mind” through difficult work, which includes seeing through any particular religious paradigm one finds themselves in, or through Grace. Let us again remember here the last days of St Thomas Aquinas, and his statements about his own work, which statements are not dissimilar from that of other Sages upon their physical demise. There is excellent and practical reason for such remarks.

The Way of that Stream includes everyone at all times, and is based on what you might in Catholicism call being “made in the Image and Likeness of God.” In other words, the facts of the matter are interiorly present always and everywhere to each one as the structure of Soul. And this is why, my dear friend, I contend, again from experience with my own seeking at the time of my life altering/altaring experience, that faith as adamantized habit can be a mental obstruction to actual spiritual progress. Think, please, about the phenomenally momenteous tendency we have as humans to maintain our sense of being “right.” It is far more pervsive than one could imagine, and why it has always been said by Sages to “know thyself.” And again, this is why it often takes a shock to dispace habit in favor of receptivity to actuality, and why it is used in many mystical disciplines.

Having had the shock, and re-examining the structure of the Gospels, a number of things become clear about why the Church is the way it publicly is, and why it teaches what it does. But especially it becomes clear why there constantly needs to be the statement made that the actions of the members of the Church do not represent the teaching of the Church. The proponents of what you might name, though it is unnamable, as the Perennial Philosophy, have never had need to make such a statement. That would be impossible, given what it is.

I don’t expect you to agree. But it is a perspective consistent within itself, as is the story of the Church from within its own doctrine. Only thing is, the story I propose spans a wider and deeper comprehension of Relationship with the Divine and even includes congruency with the Identity statements of both the OT and NT. So go figure. At least it is a darned interesting tale, and it works and has worked for me these past 45+ years with increasing grace, practicality, and elegance.
 
And yet, as far as I can see, there is more beyond AT’s convincing stance. That is because that while he has accomplished much in the realm of disassociating from the mass consensuses of the standard religious paradigms, he is yet at the threshold of experiencing what can be called, floabt, the superconscious, or transpersonal awareness.
This kind of flowery talk may wash in New Age circles – where belief in the power of “transpersonal awareness” is the basis of books, lectures, and lots of other scams to syphon money out of suckers – but what it boils down to is that you’re taking one particular state of consciousness and ascribing all sorts of significance to it that it doesn’t deserve.

Anyone with even a little experience in things like meditation, for example, will know how easy it is to get the mind to slip into different states of consciousness. But these different states of consciousness aren’t any more “special” than the state of consciousness you can get into by having too many glasses of wine or the one you can get into by exercising beyond your usual limit.

Almost anything you do that is out of the ordinary will produce states of consciousness out of the ordinary. Sometimes, these states of consciousness come with blissful feelings and funky daydreams. But they’re not evidence that anything divine or magical is happening to you, no matter how much the New Age movement wants you to believe otherwise as you continue to fill its pockets.
 
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