The Government of Distributism

[Peeps]

I can certainly see the benefits of the EITC as opposed to raising minimum wage.

I think that raising the minimum wage is going to lead to higher prices for consumers, use of more automation and technology that will actually phase out human workers, and continued poverty, as $15 hour is still pretty small potatoes.

However, I think that in the long run, Americans simply have to commit to making sure that from birth, children are well-prepared for school, which includes their physical, mental, and emotional health, and their safety (e.g., gang-infested neighborhoods make it almost impossible for children to play outside safely).

Many of the techniques for preparing children that I described above are free, and parents simply need to use the techniques day-in-, day-out, for the first 5 years a child’s life.

I think we would actually do better to insist that low-income parents do NOT work outside the home, but rather, stay home and concentrate on preparing their children for school. I know that a lot of people advocate programs like universal pre-school and Head Start, but considering how long we’ve had these programs in place, we still see a very large percentage of children who are horribly under-prepared for school. I’m not sure I trust a program over a parent…

…unless the parents are suffering from mental and emotional disease themselves, and/or addictions, or are involved with criminal activities (e.g. gangs). Then, IMO, the children need to be enrolled in pre-school and Head Start with special emphasis on helping them to avoid the traps that their parents have fallen into. I would love to see these children removed from their parents, but that may do more harm then good. I believe that children, even very little children, can be educated about their parents’ illnesses and disabilities and flaws, and if this education is done well with compassion, can actually grow up with more compassion and commitment to public service and hard work than their peers who have healthy parents.

I don’t see any of this happening, though. At this time, our culture seems to be encouraging TAKING rather than GIVING, and many of us want to blame something outside of ourselves for our disadvantages. Even though many people have overcome all kinds of disadvantages–racism, illness or disability, absent parents, addictions, etc.–we tend to see these folks as “exceptions” and conclude that the majority of people are incapable of rising above their circumstances.

I think we do too much wallowing in our many excuses, especially since the media and the entertainment industry have seized on the benefits of keeping people enslaved in their past problems and keep hammering into our national psyche how “oppressed” we all are and how others are responsible for the oppression.

Also, we have essentially eliminated religion as a “help” for our personal and societal ills, and instead of reaching out to God, we have forbidden or greatly hobbled the use of His Name in schools, government agencies, workplaces, etc.

 

[Hume]

The idea that people don’t work because they choose not to is quite the myth.

There simply is not enough opportunity. The job market is fairly efficient, like most markets, and positions get filled despite what anecdotes you may hear.

As far as government control being a nightmare, I reference the rest of the civilized world. The US is the only g20 country without some sort of single payer system. The WHO ranks our healthcare system in the mid 20s. How tragic that getting majorly ill in the US without being wealthy or on public insurance (Medicaid/Medicare/VA) generally involves bankruptcy.

Granted, if you’re wealthy and can afford Cedars-Sinai in LA, you’re probably getting the best healthcare on planet earth. Unfortunately, “get rich” is a child’s solution.

 

[Hume]

On making sure our kids are ready for school, I agree. But there still isn’t enough opportunity.

The shift of previously blue collar families toward college since NAFTA in the 90s has largely stagnated the value of a bachelor’s degree since then while exploding college debt.

All those mice trying to find the cheese where there isn’t enough…

 

[Crocus]

stagnated the value of a bachelor’s degree since then while exploding college debt.

Previously I mentioned the commodification of poverty, add to that, the business of incarceration. Thanks for reminder that education is also in that category, perpetuating the problems.

 

[Crocus]

I think we would actually do better to insist that low-income parents do NOT work outside the home, but rather, stay home and concentrate on preparing their children for school.

Insist? Are you sure you want to be responsible for that? More restriction of choices in how they live? Nobody chooses poverty (except religious).

Low income? When they have enough to live on, are they still low income? Surely the goal is to make sure working people have enough for food, shelter, choice of safe living conditions, education, leisure and worship time, and possibility of saving for property of their own.

They first need to be lifted out of poverty, until they are out of it. Then you will see them doing all the positive things you want them to do, on their own, making responsible choices, like you and me.

At this time, our culture seems to be encouraging TAKING rather than GIVING

This is so true. What many do not see is that so much has been taken from the vulnerable (means of sustenance, work, choice of where to live), then turned back on them as if it is their fault that they are poor. Meanwhile, people of means that was gathered from all of society, are protected (whether they agree with it or not) from paying fair share of expenses of society. It was a small deviation at its beginning, from the straight course, but it is now surely heading towards the ditch, if not soon righted.

We are a society. We share so that we all can live in dignity. Right now, how we do that is greatly disordered.

 

[Socrates92]

should be paid according to who they are,

What does this even mean?

 

[Peeps]

Meanwhile, people of means that was gathered from all of society, are protected (whether they agree with it or not) from paying fair share of expenses of society.

I don’t agree with this.

Oh, yes, I’m sure there are plenty of “Mr. Burns” types among the wealthy, who set vicious hounds on anyone who challenges their lifestyle.

But wealthy people are constantly under pressure to give generously to many causes. There are demands that they ante up and help save old buildings and historic sites, build hospitals and schools, create scholarships, contribute to the building and maintenance of free clinics, give to church building funds, support the arts by donating tens of thousands or more, and of course, help the poor and all who are in need.

My kids attended a country day school, which was heavily populated with truly wealthy people. (We were a “scholarship” and “work study” family–our kids were accepted because they were very intelligent and gifted in various arts–we paid about a quarter of what the rich families paid!).

Interestingly, the parents in that school were extremely friendly and we became friends with several families. Our friends humbly shared with us the pressures on them to support many causes, and how difficult it was for them to say “no,” but they simply couldn’t give money to every group and person who asked.

One man said that it was difficult to give to schools, museums, sports clubs, etc., because everyone expected them to give money to support the poor, and those suffering from various diseases, especially pediatric AIDS patients and pediatric cancer patients. He felt pulled all the time, and he felt so terrible whenever he said, “No,” and knew that people were holding it against him and considering him and his family “selfish rich fat cats.”

I realize that for those who struggle to put food on the table, this all sounds like a pile of manure. Some would even say, “Waah, poor little rich babies! Must be tough!”

But we all have to remember that there are many people who are “poor” according to society standards who don’t feel poor at all, and live a very “rich” life full of good food that they grow and prepare themselves, and are rich in friendship. And there are people who appear wealthy who are actually on the brink of bankruptcy—they live in constant fear of losing it all to a bad deal, a stock exchange disaster, or a changing market.

I would suggest looking around and opening our eyes to the many MANY things that “the wealthy” have donated to our towns and cities that make all of our lives better.

 

[Crocus]

You totally miss my point. You keep coming back to the subject of charity. I’m not talking about charity. (On a side note, some types of charity, are an abuse to the dignity of the human being.)

Jesus said there will always be poor. Always be the poor that you and I and others must give relief; don’t worry that worthy causes will be too scarce for your charitable appetite.

It is instead about challenging the conditions responsible for creating and institutionalizing poverty among many of the poor, and most or all of the working poor. The current philosophy is counter productive, designed to keep the poor, poor.

fair share of expenses of society.

You don’t agree with this, how? You don’t agree that our elected representatives have a job to do, to work for the good of all people? If not, then what do we even have a government for?

Reference the Social Doctrine of Church, that the government exists to maintain the common good. Therefore, the State has a moral obligation to oversee the just wage. How they oversee it may differ, but a just wage is imperative.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Putting money into more hands creates demand for more goods & services, creates jobs, raises income, grows the economy, creates wealth …

Reference 2019 Nobel Prize Economics: US must raise taxes to grow economy.
In practical terms, quit cutting taxes over and over on high incomes. Quit frustrating the creation of wealth, by concentrating the capital, in the hands of the few to the detriment of the many.

The current recipe is stale. It’s about changing the recipe, in order to bake a bigger, tastier, more nutritious loaf, that we all can have a share of.

 

[Hume]

You totally miss my point. You keep coming back to the subject of charity. I’m not talking about charity. (On a side note, some types of charity, are an abuse to the dignity of the human being.)

I’d like to point out that there is no charity on the planet even remotely as efficient as the Social Security Administration. Overhead is roughly 2-3% of budget.

Private charities are absolute “rock stars” of private efficiency if they can manage to hit 15%. Most are between 25% and 50% last I looked at the numbers.

I also think leaving it to charity offends human dignity. Some get cared for, some don’t. Depends on how good a job they do at begging for the “scraps”. How well they “sell” their misfortune, so to speak.

 

[Peeps]

It is instead about challenging the conditions responsible for creating and institutionalizing poverty among many of the poor, and most or all of the working poor. The current philosophy is counter productive, designed to keep the poor, poor.

In your view, what are the “conditions responsible for creating and institutionalizing poverty among many of the poor, and most or all of the working poor?”

What I hear you saying–and I’m probably misinterpreting you–is that people are poor because of U.S. government economic policies. But taxes are not why people are poor. Just look around–there are plenty of people who are doing well, people like me and my husband who are far from wealthy, but we make a good living. We didn’t come from wealthy families–far from it.

I believe that we get where we are because of a series of decisions–our OWN decisions.

And it seems to me that the United States courtesy of the taxpayers provides a huge freebie to all to help them succeed in life because it guarantees a free public school education to all, including the poor, until a person is a legal adult.

Many cities and towns provide free transportation for public school students, and also provide free breakfast and/or lunch for the students.

Many cities and towns provide books, school supplies, uniforms (for those schools which require them) and even sports equipment to public school students. In addition, many charitable organizations donate these items to fill in the gaps.

ALL schools are required to provide for the needs of those with disabilities, including mental and emotional illnesses, and conditions like Asperger’s that challenge a person’s ability to become socialized.

And many of the larger towns and cities provide free Head Start programs and other reduced-cost preschools for children from poor families.

Seems to me that our government is already doing plenty to challenge the conditions responsible for creating and institutionalizing poverty, as one of the major causes of poverty is lack of education, specifically a high school diploma that is required for even low-wage jobs.

The one thing that government can’t provide is common sense and wisdom in advising the students. When my children were young (1980s), teachers did a lot of “cheerleading,” telling the students “You are wonderful! You are capable! You can be ANYTHING you want to be!”

That’s all fine, but they stopped short of helping the students discover their calling in life and how to actually GET there.

I believe that if schools stopped using an out-dated model that dispenses random information, and instead, concentrated on “career preparation,” we would see a decrease in poverty. I think that from the time a child enters Kindergarten or 1st grade, the message should be, “School is here to help you find your calling and a good job and enjoy a good life.” And from Day One, I believe that the teachers, coaches, and parents/guardians should work together to help their students discover their “natural bent” and then work on developing the skills and gaining the knowledge needed to eventually enter a career in that area.

 

[Crocus]

Seems to me that our government is already doing plenty

A lot of good programs there, but not actually advancing the common good. 29% of children in US live in poverty. Doesn’t have to be that way.

Do you have a concept or a measure of the common good?

Do you know about tax cuts of last 40 years?

 

[Theo520]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[Peeps]

A lot of good programs there, but not actually advancing the common good. 29% of children in US live in poverty. Doesn’t have to be that way.

Do you have a concept or a measure of the common good?

Do you know about tax cuts of last 40 years?

Tell me about “the measure of the common good.”

I know about tax cuts, but of course we don’t have access to most of the tax cuts to the wealthy–I am not wealthy. But we have benefited from some tax cuts, and would love to see even more tax cuts because of they way they stimulate the economy here in my city in Northern Illinois. I think a lot of those rich people are using those tax cuts the way they were intended to be used–to invest in businesses that will provide jobs.

It’s lovely to see factories running three shifts again and other factories re-tooling and opening their doors for the first time since the 1980s. Kind retro here! I’m hearing “the hum” again–the hum of factories that I grew up. Hope this all continues.

Because of the improved economy and factory re-openings, we currently have several thousand job openings in our city for people in the skilled trades, but no people to fill those jobs! However, the local community college is offering two-year courses in the skilled trades, and is in the process of turning one of our downtown buildings into part of their campus that will house an additional training center for students seeking certificates in the skilled trades. (Downtown is closer to where the majority of our poor families live.)

HOPEFULLY–these potential students will complete their totally free public education and receive their high school diploma, otherwise they will not gain access to these technical programs or any programs. And the fast food jobs and other min. wage jobs are going away as the human workers are being replaced with technology (I hate fast food kiosks, BTW and refuse to use them!).

And hopefully, people from the rest of the U.S. will move here for those technical jobs. However…

…our city has the fourth highest property taxes in the nation, and we have seen several thousand people leave our city and the state in the last few years. My husband and I are thinking about it and watching the situation closely here in the Land of Lincoln.

The State of Illinois has the distinction of having the highest loss of population due to people moving away of any state in the nation, and much of the reason has to do with unconscionable taxes that don’t seem to be helping anyone except bazillionaires who are able to pull legal strings to get out of paying them, or who have so much money that they really don’t notice the loss of a few hundred million dollars.

Also, do the 29% have no access to public school education? Has the National Education Association withdrawn their teachers from the schools attended by these children? Or perhaps are the teachers refusing to teach in “poor” or “violent” schools?

Or are the qualified teachers there, but public school education is not working for these children in spite of all the efforts of teachers? If this is the case why?

 

[o_mlly]

My point is speculative and purely focused on the role of government and its most appropriate form for a distributist economy.

The role of government is always the use or threat of force to insure compliance. There are two problems with the distributionist’s model: 1, the transition to and 2, the maintenance of the system.

To obtain an equality of opportunity (the transition) the government uses its monopoly on the use of force to initially take ownership of capital from some and transfer it to others. Patently, this would be legitimizing theft.

To obtain an equality of condition (the maintenance) the government uses its monopoly on the use of force to continue to take ownership of capital from successful corporations and transfer it to the owner’s of unsuccessful corporations. Patently, this continues the legitimization of ongoing theft. More importantly, the maintenance of a distributionalism system removes the motivation to succeed. Why try? Successful ventures are penalized and unsuccessful ventures are rewarded.

 

[Crocus]

Tell me about “the measure of the common good.”

I know about tax cuts, but of course we don’t have access to most of the tax cuts to the wealthy– …

taxes that don’t seem to be helping anyone except bazillionaires who are able to pull legal strings to get out of paying them, or who have so much money that they really don’t notice the loss of a few hundred million dollars.

In simplist terms, the common good is when everyone is well off, not necessarily equally well off. I think we agree that not everyone is well off. Probably disagree on how to remedy that.

 

[Peeps]

In simplist terms, the common good is when everyone is well off, not necessarily equally well off. I think we agree that not everyone is well off. Probably disagree on how to remedy that.

Thanks for the clarification.

Yes, I’m sure we disagree, but I’m also fairly certain that the best approach is a combination of both private and government helps. Both need each other.

I think a lot of the politicians from both sides are extremely wary of making any changes in policy, even small changes, because they know a failure will be likely to result in a lost election for them.

That’s why we just keep doing the same ineffective programs, including tax hikes and tax cuts. I do not see this changing in the future, especially in the current climate of distrust and hostility where politicians dig in and refuse to yield even a millimeter to the “other side.”

However, I do see a good chance that Christian people can be persuaded to live out their faith and do SOMETHING to help the poor. I think a lot of Christians are already doing this and don’t get (or want) any publicity for their goodness and generosity of time, goods, and money.

At this point, there are no laws against individuals making a difference. Here’s a really uplifting link about a woman who is doing just that–making a difference right where she lives–I hope that many CAF members will read this and contribute to “Miss Carly’s”, or maybe even start the same outreach themselves if they have her incredible abilities.

https://www.misscarlys.org/

 

[Crocus]

I think a lot of the politicians from both sides are extremely wary of making any changes in policy, even small changes, because they know a failure will be likely to result in a lost election for them.

That’s why we just keep doing the same ineffective programs, including tax hikes and tax cuts. I do not see this changing in the future, especially in the current climate of distrust and hostility where politicians dig in and refuse to yield even a millimeter to the “other side.”

A pity, that is. :woman_shrugging:t2:

 

[Theo520]

At this point, there are no laws against individuals making a difference. Here’s a really uplifting link about a woman who is doing just that–making a difference right where she lives–I hope that many CAF members will read this and contribute to “Miss Carly’s”, or maybe even start the same outreach themselves if they have her incredible abilities.

https://www.misscarlys.org/

Thanks for sharing, I loved seeing what they are doing.