The "Great Apostasy": History or Fiction?

[Church_Militant]

The allegation has been made

The RCC started polluting the original message in the 3rd and 4th century (some historians believe it to be a little earlier).

I believe they did not hold fast to the traditions they were taught both in written (Scripture) and oral (Creeds and other oral traditions).

This is typically called “The Great Apostasy” theory (generally espoused by JWs, SDA, and Pentecostals) and has no historical basis in fact whatsoever. The early church always responded to heresy and apostasy as is documented many many times in their writings, yet there is absolutely no evidence that the things the Catholic Church teaches ever came under such condemnation. In fact the writings of the early church fathers unanimously show that what they believed was indeed Catholic…like the Eucharist, apostolic succession, and others. Dishonest anti-Catholic scholars use edited histories and false accusations to disparage the Catholic Church. I find it hard to understand how anyone can accuse us of following the traditions and teachings of men when they do it with their preachers all the time. Just because some preacher mounts his pulpit and says that something is so they accept it as if it’s Gospel. I also fail to understand why others cannot simply preach their “Gospel message” without disparaging other religions. Will their Gospel not stand without their attacks on other people? If not I would find those messages very seriously flawed. I will also point out that I have never heard such coming from the homilies in any Catholic Church I have ever attended. (Thanks Be To God!)

Pax vobiscum,

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I dont believe there ever was one.
The biggest problem with the Prots is that they dont adhere to the way it was back then in the 3rd and 4th, they keep making up stuff!

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

In order to sell their version unfortunately they try to prove hoe wrong everybody else is especially the Catholic Church.They feel a sense of empowerment by pointing fingers at the percieved wrongs of others.God Bless

 

[reggie]

I have wondered the same, why do other “christian faiths” attack the Church so vehemently? I have to believe that they believe what they say. If they want only to draw others to their faith, then why don’t they just preach their beliefs and leave it to the Holy Spirit to bring about conversion? Patrick Madrid in a speech said that we can only relate the truth to others, it falls to the Holy Spirit to convert them. I think that is true. It is obvious with some that they have read and studied writings of the ECF but they don’t see them as writing about the Catholic church in the way we do. I don’t know why that is, why the Spirit moves some to the truth and not others. I am only saddened that so many are deceived by these “preachers” and leave Catholicism. I was one who was nearly deceived when I was contemplating a return to the Church. There are still times that someone will say something and I’ll think “is he right, is the church wrong?” It is then that I have to reread the Scripture about the false teachers and how good they can sound and to not be led astray by them. Catholicism is history - Salvation history.

 

[dennisknapp]

Church Militant:

The allegation has been made

This is typically called “The Great Apostasy” theory (generally espoused by JWs, SDA, and Pentecostals) and has no historical basis in fact whatsoever. The early church always responded to heresy and apostasy as is documented many many times in their writings, yet there is absolutely no evidence that the things the Catholic Church teaches ever came under such condemnation. In fact the writings of the early church fathers unanimously show that what they believed was indeed Catholic…like the Eucharist, apostolic succession, and others. Dishonest anti-Catholic scholars use edited histories and false accusations to disparage the Catholic Church. I find it hard to understand how anyone can accuse us of following the traditions and teachings of men when they do it with their preachers all the time. Just because some preacher mounts his pulpit and says that something is so they accept it as if it’s Gospel. I also fail to understand why others cannot simply preach their “Gospel message” without disparaging other religions. Will their Gospel not stand without their attacks on other people? If not I would find those messages very seriously flawed. I will also point out that I have never heard such coming from the homilies in any Catholic Church I have ever attended. (Thanks Be To God!)

Pax vobiscum,

What amazes me is that there is actual historical evidence regarding what early Christians believed. Those who claim a “great apostasy” are only trying to further there own agenda.

They look at history and say, “see they did turn from the truth because they don’t agree with me!” Of course this is non-sense and should never be taken seriously.

Peace

 

[BibleReader]

I believe that we are solidly into the Great Apostasy today – right now, at this minute.

Church attendance is dying in Europe. The U.S. church attendance is in trouble. About three-quaters of married Catholics use contraception of some sort, carefully and consciously disobeying their own Magisterium. Between 50,000 and 100,000 young folks have been sexually molested by priests. Vocations in the West are dying. A growing number of Protestant congregations have homosexual ministers engaging in homosexual activity before coming from the parsonage into Church. The Episcopal Church even elected a man engaging in such activities bishop. Our governments are starting to marry homosexuals, giving the official blessing to homosexual sex acts.

I’d say that qualifies.

 

[Mickey]

reggie:

I have wondered the same, why do other “christian faiths” attack the Church so vehemently?

Rejoice! The TRUTH is always attacked relentlessly.

 

[Church_Militant]

Mickey:

Rejoice! The TRUTH is always attacked relentlessly.

Good point Mickey.

For good material refuting this one can get Beginning Apologetics # 2 from San Juan Catholic Seminars here:catholicapologetics.com/

VERY good stuff!

 

[Church_Militant]

Mickey:

Rejoice! The TRUTH is always attacked relentlessly.

Good point Mickey.

For good material refuting this one can get Beginning Apologetics # 2 from San Juan Catholic Seminars here:catholicapologetics.com/
http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/emoticons/vent.gif
VERY good stuff!

 

[Church_Militant]

So…who else has heard this sort of stuff?
(and who believes this?)

 

[Maccabees]

How doe we know the great apostasy wasn’t the Protestant Reformation?

 

[Church_Militant]

Maccabees:

How doe we know the great apostasy wasn’t the Protestant Reformation?

I’ve never thought of it in quite those terms, though I do think of it as “The Deformation”.

 

[MaggieOH]

Church Militant:

So…who else has heard this sort of stuff?
(and who believes this?)

I have been hearing the lie about the Great Apostasy since I have been involved in Internet Apologetics. After a while it starts to sound like a broken record.

I think that the first time I heard it would have been from a Missionary Baptist, allegedly ex-Catholic who just happened to believe two chicks who came to the door one day and then spent time going over the Bible with him until he “got it” Now this here Missionary Baptist preacher he believed all of those things that are not true about the Catholic Church Mary and the like. For him you may curse Mary, who is the Mother of my Lord, but do not dare to say “what the hell” because that means that Satan is not being treated with reverence.

No sooner had Ray been demolished than John L became more active and he was taught this stuff from the Seventh Day Adventists. John loved to think that he was a good fisherman. Then along came Sandra, another who claimed to be an ex-Catholic and the curse of the list. We tried giving her up for Lent but she did not get the hint. Now Sandra was a Baptist Fundamentalist and of course she also claimed the same thing. This was one bad lady with some of the things that she said.

But wait… three people from three separatre traditions… what is going on? They all believe the same thing !!! That is because they think that J.M. Carroll’s trashy tract called “The Trail of Blood” is a real history. So they read this poison and they spread it…

It is taught by the Calvary Chapel people… now that was an interesting time. He almost got away with it until he posted something that was slander against Scott Hahn… that makes 4…

There have been more than 4 people that have made these accusations. After a while one tends to lose count of all the ludicrous claims that are made in the name of Fundamentalist Evangelical psuedo-Christianity.

If I was St. Paul writing today I think that I would be looking at what these “Christians” say and I would be writing: “there is none who are righteous amongst them, not one”

Maggie

 

[Maccabees]

Church Militant:

I’ve never thought of it in quite those terms, though I do think of it as “The Deformation”.

See turn the tables and it makes you think doesn’t it.
To me the burden of poof is on the protestant they were not around the first 1500 years and they have turned into thousands of competing denomination and non denoms and are a secularist dream as they can’t define any certain truth because its all up to indiviudal interpretation.
I hear atheist tell protestants “Well that is just your interpretation of scripture”. And while i hate to give any credit to an atheist they have a huge point that a protestant can’t honestly refute because it is their own interpretation of scripture. There is no one in protestantism that claims infaliability there is no church that claims to be the fullness of truth and infalliable in its councils and popes. They argue by their interpretation of scripture and thousands of conflicting opinions render any infalliable truth impossible for the protestant. So I would have to give a touche for the athiest on this one.

Read any secularist or atheist they think the Reformation was a great thing. Not because they support protestant theology. They don’t. The reason is that they see an attack of the only source in the world that claimed to have the Truth. Of course people also killed the only person who claimed to be the Truth also.
Martin Luther later admitted the world he now lived in was far more amoral than the catholic one he knew. Well considering he now okayed bigomy and the Anglicans now okayed divorce and looked the other way at the sins of Royalty even murder you wonder why? If someone was looking for loophole for their amoral lifestyle you can find it by using the Bible alone and ignoring the moral tradition of the church. You saw it then when Luther sued the Bible to okay bigamy. You saw it when King Henry was looking for a loophole for divorce and the divine right of kings.
You see it today when protestnat denoms okay the use of contraception, abortion and homosexuality despite all these contradict the moral law of the church that has been held by the tradition of the church for 2000 years. For now it becomes a matter of my interpretation says this.

 

[Maccabees]

MaggieOH:

I have been hearing the lie about the Great Apostasy since I have been involved in Internet Apologetics. After a while it starts to sound like a broken record.

I think that the first time I heard it would have been from a Missionary Baptist, allegedly ex-Catholic who just happened to believe two chicks who came to the door one day and then spent time going over the Bible with him until he “got it” Now this here Missionary Baptist preacher he believed all of those things that are not true about the Catholic Church Mary and the like. For him you may curse Mary, who is the Mother of my Lord, but do not dare to say “what the hell” because that means that Satan is not being treated with reverence.

No sooner had Ray been demolished than John L became more active and he was taught this stuff from the Seventh Day Adventists. John loved to think that he was a good fisherman. Then along came Sandra, another who claimed to be an ex-Catholic and the curse of the list. We tried giving her up for Lent but she did not get the hint. Now Sandra was a Baptist Fundamentalist and of course she also claimed the same thing. This was one bad lady with some of the things that she said.

But wait… three people from three separatre traditions… what is going on? They all believe the same thing !!! That is because they think that J.M. Carroll’s trashy tract called “The Trail of Blood” is a real history. So they read this poison and they spread it…

It is taught by the Calvary Chapel people… now that was an interesting time. He almost got away with it until he posted something that was slander against Scott Hahn… that makes 4…

There have been more than 4 people that have made these accusations. After a while one tends to lose count of all the ludicrous claims that are made in the name of Fundamentalist Evangelical psuedo-Christianity.

If I was St. Paul writing today I think that I would be looking at what these “Christians” say and I would be writing: “there is none who are righteous amongst them, not one”

Maggie

Paul would also say didn’t you get that letter where I said no divisions among you? I said to join the church with one faith, one lord, one baptism. The one with bishops, deacons, teachers and prophets. And gee what church would that be folks? Wake up its the catholic church. From Paul 3 Corinthians. The End.

Calvary Chapel was founded in 1965 how in the world do they have a link to the early church? It’s not exactly apostolic when most people you know are born before your denomination was founded I mean what exactly is the true church before Calvary Chapel what church would these people go to before the true church Calvary Chapel was invented?

 

[BibleReader]

Maccabees:

How doe we know the great apostasy wasn’t the Protestant Reformation?

Two things: One: The Catholic Church deserved the Protestant Reformation: We were disgusting, then. That’s what the Counter-Reformation was all about – fixing the broken machine. So, I wouldn’t necessariuly call Christianity’s finest leaving a disgusting Church, in disgust, an “apostasy.” It was – but it doesn’t fit, well.

Two: It’s now about 500 years out of 2000 since the Reformation occurred after Christ. One quarter of the New Testament period! One gets the feeling that in 2 Thessalonians 2 Paul intends to tell us that the Great Falling Away will immediately precede the end.

 

[Kielbasi]

Its neither history nor fiction.

The Great Apostasy is an interpretation of history, which seeks to reconcile the past with the present and bring order to people’s faiths and beliefs.

 

[adnauseum]

BibleReader:

Two things: One: The Catholic Church deserved the Protestant Reformation: We were disgusting, then. That’s what the Counter-Reformation was all about – fixing the broken machine.

I agree with you that we were disgusting. But the Church did not deserve the protestant attack in the sense that it is not our church; it is His Church.

“Look not on our sins, but on the faith of your Church.”

The Church has never been broken. Its members have been.

 

[BibleReader]

adnauseum:

I agree with you that we were disgusting. But the Church did not deserve the protestant attack in the sense that it is not our church; it is His Church.

“Look not on our sins, but on the faith of your Church.”

The Church has never been broken. Its members have been.

A valid distinction.

 

[RSiscoe]

BibleReader:

Two things: One: The Catholic Church deserved the Protestant Reformation: We were disgusting, then. That’s what the Counter-Reformation was all about – fixing the broken machine. So, I wouldn’t necessariuly call Christianity’s finest leaving a disgusting Church, in disgust, an ‘apostacy’

.

Are you calling the heretics of the 16the century, “Christianity’s finest”. I sure hope not. There was nothing “fine” about falling into heresy and persecuting true Christians. And are you calling the Catholic Church a “disgusting Church”. I hope not. Yes, the Church may have had some problems then, but those who fell into heresy as a result of some scandalice behavior do not deserve the title Christianity’s finest": they deserve the title heretic!; and the Church does not deserve to be called a “disgusting Church” because of some bad leaders. The Church is the immaculate bride of Christ; those who fell away in the 16th century were heretics!

We don’t need Catholics calling heretics “Christianity’s finest” and calling the Church “disgusting”. We have enough of that coming out of Rome. God help up.