The "Great Apostasy": History or Fiction?

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The catholic church should have been reformed from within not attacked and splintered in a rebellion.

The Protestant Reformation is a myth it was a Protestant Rebellion the only reforming was done at the counter-reformation. You can’t reform outside the church only within. This is like trying to solve a marriage by divorce. you can’t fix the marriage that way you just ended you association with you spouse.

The church has been reformed many times from within prior to the Reformation the 1500’s was not the only time the church needed a face-lift.
I think you choice of words are kind out of line here. The church leaders needed a wakeup call but the church never deserved the reformation the Body of Christ did not deserve to be splintered only a perverse theology would think of such a thing. I suggest you rephrase you charge here.
 
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BibleReader:
Two things: One: The Catholic Church deserved the Protestant Reformation: We were disgusting, then. That’s what the Counter-Reformation was all about – fixing the broken machine.
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First of all whats this “we” thing?

Second “fixing the broken”? One thing that makes me cringe and almost brings tears to my eyes is a result of the Protestants.
It is called iconoclasm!!! They went through the finest and most beautiful structures ever (i.e. Cathedrals) and some of the finest and most beautiful representations of Heaven on earth in the form of stained glass, paintings, statues, and other art and smashed, and burned, and chushed, and stole, and spat and took hammers and axes and DESTROYED IT! All with smiles on their face, proud, happy, accomplished!
Where are the angry archaeologists, and protestant “historians” what do they have to say about this? Why istn this in the text books?! Historical works we will never see or enjoy. Gone forever, for no reason! We must remind them of this!
 
Read Eamon Duffy’s ‘The Stripping of the Altars’ or ‘The Voices of Morbath’ to get some insight on the enforcement of the Protestant Reformation on Catholic England.
 
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RSiscoe:
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Are you calling the heretics of the 16the century, “Christianity’s finest”. I sure hope not. There was nothing “fine” about falling into heresy and persecuting true Christians. And are you calling the Catholic Church a “disgusting Church”. I hope not. Yes, the Church may have had some problems then, but those who fell into heresy as a result of some scandalice behavior do not deserve the title Christianity’s finest": they deserve the title heretic!; and the Church does not deserve to be called a “disgusting Church” because of some bad leaders. The Church is the immaculate bride of Christ; those who fell away in the 16th century were heretics!

We don’t need Catholics calling heretics “Christianity’s finest” and calling the Church “disgusting”. We have enough of that coming out of Rome. God help up.
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Relax.

There was a “Counter-Reformation” because the Catholic Church was

disgusting

in many ways before the Reformation.

The immorality rampant in The Faith chased many, many wonderful people away from the Church before and during the Reformation. Just as God will respond with rage to the priests scandalizing the Catholic Church today, with their innumerable sex molestation cases, God will respond with rage to the priests who alienated so many before the Reformation.

We, the Catholic Church, caused the Reformation. Admit it. That’s why there was a “Counter” - Reformation.

Believe me – we chased away many, many excellent people with our behavior in the pre-Reformation period.
 
Not only don’t you retract your statements you add to them. Look there was no “we” at the reformation. THis was 500 years ago? None of us were around then.

And the catholic church cannot be disgusting or in error. I doubt you are catholic as you repeat the same errors over and over again the church cannot teach or be in error it cannot be disgusting.Its is One Holy and apostolic not disgusting. Certain members like Bishop Tetzel taught error but the catholic church never taught the selling of indulgences,
I think the only thing disgusting is your attitude toward the catholic church.
The middle ages were in fact a time of greater morality than during and after the reformation. Luther admitted that morality in Europe went down dramatically during the Reformation. His Rebellion added to the confusion he did not repair the church he divided it hurt the church.
The Reformation was more disgusting than anything the midevil church cooked up it created iconclasim and conflicting denomiantion and religious wars and eventually secularism. That is your beleoved reformation.
 
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Maccabees:
Not only don’t you retract your statements you add to them. Look there was no “we” at the reformation. THis was 500 years ago? None of us were around then.
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Well, then nastily attack your Pope for apologizing for past errors, to several groups, now.

Seriously, the truth is that you, too, are imperfect, and a beneficiary of that organization we call “the Church,” with a Capital “C.”

Try humility, like our wonderful Pope does. It fits.
 
The Great Apostasy…you talking about the one in the 16th century? 😉
 
Church Militant:
The allegation has been made

This is typically called “The Great Apostasy” theory (generally espoused by JWs, SDA, and Pentecostals) and has no historical basis in fact whatsoever. The early church always responded to heresy and apostasy as is documented many many times in their writings, yet there is absolutely no evidence that the things the Catholic Church teaches ever came under such condemnation. In fact the writings of the early church fathers unanimously show that what they believed was indeed Catholic…like the Eucharist, apostolic succession, and others. Dishonest anti-Catholic scholars use edited histories and false accusations to disparage the Catholic Church. I find it hard to understand how anyone can accuse us of following the traditions and teachings of men when they do it with their preachers all the time. Just because some preacher mounts his pulpit and says that something is so they accept it as if it’s Gospel. I also fail to understand why others cannot simply preach their “Gospel message” without disparaging other religions. Will their Gospel not stand without their attacks on other people? If not I would find those messages very seriously flawed. I will also point out that I have never heard such coming from the homilies in any Catholic Church I have ever attended. (Thanks Be To God!)

Pax vobiscum,
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God tells us that in teaching His Word that we would be criticized and mocked, but thats ok I don’t serve a church or a certain religon, I serve God and God only.
2Ti 3:16 Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness.

In Him and Him Only, Dave.
 
The real apostacy occured in 1517 when many decided to reform the Faith and Morals Christ gave use. They didn’t like His teachings so they “re”-formed them to make life easier and their princes in Europe could steal the treasures of Gods Church and put them in their own pockets.

I have no reason to ‘re’-form the Faith Jesus gave me, that’s why the Holy Spirit brought me home to His Church, Christs body, His Catholic Church.

PRAISE GOD!
 
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oudave:
God tells us that in teaching His Word that we would be criticized and mocked, but thats ok I don’t serve a church or a certain religon, I serve God and God only.
2Ti 3:16 Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness.

In Him and Him Only, Dave.
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No Dave,
You have totally misconstrued my post. No one has mocked you. Are you trying to say that you espouse this lame non-historical theory? Your scripture quote has nothing to do with this topic, BTW. If you have verifiable historical evidence to offer on this topic…Please…Rock On.
 
Kielbasi said:
Its neither history nor fiction.

The Great Apostasy is an interpretation of history, which seeks to reconcile the past with the present and bring order to people’s faiths and beliefs.
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This is inaccurate since the “Great apostasy” that we are discussing is NOT the reformation (though I can see the points being made about the reformation). “The Great Apostasy” is a historical fiction that the SDA, A/G and others purport to allege that the Catholic Church totally abandoned the doctrines of Christianity just after the death of the last apostle (St John). As stated in Beginning Apologetics # 2: (by San Juan Catholic Seminars) “According to this ‘corruption theory’ the Catholic Church ceased to profess true Apostolic doctrines, and began to teach pagan beliefs instead.”
This is mostly a Mormon teaching and they teach that Christ’s Church completely disappeared until Joseph Smith restored it in 1829, but various forms of this fiction are also esposed by Evangelicals, Fundamentalists, and Jehovah’s Witnesses. :ehh:
Pax vobiscum
 
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BibleReader:
Well, then nastily attack your Pope for apologizing for past errors, to several groups, now.

Seriously, the truth is that you, too, are imperfect, and a beneficiary of that organization we call “the Church,” with a Capital “C.”

Try humility, like our wonderful Pope does. It fits.
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Look I really doubt you are catholic as you make mistakes in every post that are rampant among protestants who don’t understand catholcism.
The Pope apologized for past errors by the church’s members not the church herself. The church’s membership can be in error but not the church in her teaching authority. That is the context when he speaks of mistakes of the church. That has been catholic teaching and remains catholic teaching the church is infalliable as is the Pope. If the POpe admitted error by the church and the Pope we catholics would pack it in and live the easier protestant life where faith alone saves me even though I commit adultery this according to Luther.
 
As for the topic on hand the great apostacy occurs during the end of time. That rules out the catholic church since the fundamentalist protestant asserstion is that we commited apostacy during the reign of Constantine. Luther was right in one thing that the great apostasy occurs at the end of time along with the anti-christ scenario these are all things that align itself with the last days during one short period of time. He was wrong to think the last days were in the 16th centruy however. The timeline that has the apostacy at around 320 AD and the last days at sometime in the 21st century is not tenable scripturally.
 
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BibleReader:
Relax.

There was a “Counter-Reformation” because the Catholic Church was

disgusting

in many ways before the Reformation.

The immorality rampant in The Faith chased many, many wonderful people away from the Church before and during the Reformation. Just as God will respond with rage to the priests scandalizing the Catholic Church today, with their innumerable sex molestation cases, God will respond with rage to the priests who alienated so many before the Reformation.

We, the Catholic Church, caused the Reformation. Admit it. That’s why there was a “Counter” - Reformation.

Believe me – we chased away many, many excellent people with our behavior in the pre-Reformation period.
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Your little attack on the Church here, and I mean little, is almost humorous. Your claims are baseless, which means that you sound like your regurgitating some “Jack Chick” one liners. This condition is formerly called “Looseous Boweleous Oralous” or translated “Diarrhea of the Mouth”.

So do us[the faithful and respectful posters] a favor and stop just spewing your opinon out there and making claims that you have not backed up with some type of respectful evidence.
Or do me a favor and keep doing what your doing and I will continue to pick on you 😃

So if a Reformation was needed back then, I would say we certainly need one now for the Prots. What do you think?

Feel free to consult with your gay, female pastor.😉

Peace of the Lord be with you.!
 
Church Militant:
Please stay on topic guys…this is not about the reformation, nor about Papal apologies. Did the “Great Apostasy” really occur? Does ANYONE have verifiable unbiased sources that say that it did?
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Sorry CM, I didn’t have any verifiable unbiased sources, so I “accidently” picked on BibleReader instead.

“Don’t make me turn this Thread around!” ----CM
 
Church Militant:
Please stay on topic guys…this is not about the reformation, nor about Papal apologies. Did the “Great Apostasy” really occur? Does ANYONE have verifiable unbiased sources that say that it did?

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The original post already answered its own question. The Church Fathers had already spoken. What other “unbiased” sources could there be?

Gerry 🙂
 
I don’t know what exactly constitutes “The Great Apostasy” but there was a huge apostasy in the early church around 200-250 and it had nothing to do with schism and heresy.

The following comes from: newadvent.org/cathen/04583b.htm

“But there was another side to the picture. At Rome terrified Christians rushed to the temples to sacrifice. At Carthage the majority apostatized. Some would not sacrifice, but purchased libelli, or certificates, that they had done so Some bought the exemption of their family at the price of their own sin. Of these libellatici there were several thousands in Carthage. Of the fallen some did not repent, others joined the heretics, but most of them clamoured for forgiveness and restoration. Some, who had sacrificed under torture, returned to be tortured afresh.”

“The prosperity of the Church during a peace of thirty-eight years had produced great disorders. Many even of the bishops were given up to worldliness and gain, and we hear of worse scandals.”

Jeff
 
Folks first before I continue this reply I wanna say I am just throwing my questions and comments out for discussion so please save all the “your anti-catholic” statements. If you have the answer then you should correct people. I say this in advance because I have tried engaging in many discussions here only to get beat down as being anti-catholic. I am not catholic, and don’t agree with what the catholic church teaches, but I do maintain an open mind.

So to continue… I am replying to several posts that I seen in this list.
  • First I don’t believe mormon’s invented the idea that the catholic church apostasized. They just picked up on the protestant message.
  • Second what exactly constitutes “The great apostasy”. I haven’t studied the details to try to figure out what it pointed to so if you did then I like to hear what you have to say. I mean I think it is unfair to classify the reformation or era of constantine as “The great apostasy” if it isn’t what the apostles were referring to.
  • Third, some keep mentioning the end times as if they were somewhere in the future. But the apostles themselves referred to their own day as the end times indicating that from then till now is the end times. Which means in theory that “The great apostasy” could have taken place any time between the death of the apostles and now.
  • Since we are on the topic of the end times does anyone have any insight regarding the last four churches out of the seven in revelations? I mean Jesus indicates that those churches would be on earth till he returned.
Thanks,
Jeff
 
Quote:
The RCC started polluting the original message in the 3rd and 4th century (some historians believe it to be a little earlier).
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I believe they did not hold fast to the traditions they were taught both in written (Scripture) and oral (Creeds and other oral traditions).
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Just to add to this:
the early church taught infant baptism……

Hippolytus

Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them. (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215])

It taught that the Eucharist was truly the Body and Blood of Jesus.

Justin Martyr

“We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration * and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus” (*First Apology *66 [A.D. 151]).

It taught that Mary is the Mother of God.

Hippolytus
“[T]o all generations they [the prophets] have pictured forth the grandest subjects for contemplation and for action. Thus, too, they preached of the advent of God in the flesh to the world, his advent by the spotless and God-bearing (theotokos) Mary in the way of birth and growth, and the manner of his life and conversation with men, and his manifestation by baptism, and the new birth that was to be to all men, and the regeneration by the laver [of baptism]” (*Discourse on the End of the World *1 [A.D. 217]).

On Women Priests

Council of Laodicea

“[T]he so-called ‘presbyteresses’ or ‘presidentesses’ are not to be ordained in the Church” (Canon 11 [A.D. 360]).

The Apostles Creed from Rufinus around 400

I believe in God the Father Almighty; and in Jesus Christ His only Son, our Lord; who was born of (de) the Holy Ghost and of (ex) the Virgin Mary; Crucified Under Pontius Pilate and buried; The third day He rose again from the Dear, he ascended into Heaven Sitteth at the right hand of the Father, Whence He shall come to Judge the living and the dead. And in the Holy Ghost, the Holy Church the Forgiveness of sins; the Resurrection of the Body.

There are many, many, more, that the CC still holds as true. Now, what are some of the things that the CC has changed that was taught by the Early Church?

How many non-catholics still hold these to be true? If you dont are you sure you belong the the right Church. And please, stop with the “I believe only in the Bible and not on any Church.” Tell me where these Early Fathers had a KJV in their hands. Any takers?

Please show us poor deceived romanist that the CC has changed with solid proof.
 
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