The "Great Apostasy": History or Fiction?

[otm]

BibleReader:

Between 50,000 and 100,000 young folks have been sexually molested by priests.

Please state your source for that statement. I believe that if you research it, it will be an “estimate” that has no evidence to back it up.

BibleReader:

Vocations in the West are dying.

Again, please cite your source. It actually appears that, at least in some areas, the opposite is true. Further, “dying” is an interesting statement; while there are diocese which have not had an ordination is several years, they appear to be in the minority. The whole movement downward in the number of vocations is a failry recent phenomenon, and it would take more time to be able to chart the actual rates to determine whether they are actually down, and flat, or down, and turning around.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Oh yea, Jphilapy.
I went on your site, and I noticed that after a 6 month gap you took a nice chunk of time writing about the CC in you tidbits section. You must be starting to see that all those Protestants dont have a leg to stand on, or it would take way too long to talk about each one. Turns out that RCC is a tough nut to crack! Well thanks for taking the time (and the hard drive space) to post about us!

 

[jphilapy]

Catholic Dude:

Oh yea, Jphilapy.
I went on your site, and I noticed that after a 6 month gap you took a nice chunk of time writing about the CC in you tidbits section. You must be starting to see that all those Protestants dont have a leg to stand on, or it would take way too long to talk about each one. Turns out that RCC is a tough nut to crack! Well thanks for taking the time (and the hard drive space) to post about us!

you make a lot of assumptions. I am not starting to see anything about protestantism. But you wouldn’t assume differently now would you? I have been a christian for 15 years and even before I attended a church (which I no longer attend any) I questioned protestantism. It made no sense to me how so many people could disagree and treat each other as not following Christ and yet all have the same Holy Spirit. So I concluded they couldn’t all be following the Holy Spirit. So how long have I questioned protestantism? 15 years. How long have I questioned catholicism? Not long. Why not? Because my heart is set on understanding what early christians believed. Which requires me to evaluate any christian institution who claims to go back all the way. So I haven’t questioned catholicism long. I am just now getting to that point in my study.

Jeff

 

[jphilapy]

Catholic Dude:

Pardon my asking, but…
(First of all it wasnt the catholic church it was the Church!)
What do you mean by agenda?
When you say “fight the fight withe love” what is that supposed to mean? You hold up the Bible infront of a horde and they fall over?

I will get back to you on this, and will try to reply to everything else you said, but I will need to spend the time researching. But in anycase you asked some good questions.

I will say this much, the early christians give reason why they didn’t fight in military.

1. They didn’t believe that their killing advanced the gospel. They belived firmly that love advanced the gospel. That is what it means to fight the fight of love, in other words, save as many souls as you can. And they believed that their dying for their faith was one of those most effective tools they had. And according to some historical accounts it was effective.
2. They believed in the soveringty of God. If it was God’s will that they die then they will. If it was God’s will they live then they will. They saw themselves as Jesus did when he was on trial. They saw themselves as lambs silent before the slaughter.
3. They believed that it was in obedience to prophecy, hence quoting the verse about turning our swords into plowshares.
4. Another scriptural argument they gave was the command, thou shalt not kill.

Maybe they just didn’t understand the teaching of the apostles?

Granted nobody wants to be martyred, but then again to the early christians Jesus was just on the other side of the door. To live in this world or go be with him?

Peace,
Jeff

 

[Church_Militant]

jphilapy:

haha, yeah I tend to have dislexic fingers.

Well I think you make a good point. I don’t attend non-catholic services. I meet with believers in homes. We don’t function on or around the “us vs them” principle. Sadly many people are united by what they are against and not by what they are for.

BTW thanks for being willing to answer my questions and so on. On the other side of this exchange I am willing to be blatant and honest in my questions as long as I know they will be received in love. I like to challenge people in discussion, unfortunately people sometimes take it the wrong way.

I want to comment on this argument but I don’t have too many collected thoughts about this.

One thing is clear, there cannot ever be a complete apostasy. If there was then we would all be in the wrong and this conversation would be pointless.

However can there be a departure?

Based on my study of history I see good reason to conclude there was a departure.

For one the way the church accomplished it’s mission for the first 300 years is fundamentally different than how it accomplished after that period. In scripture Jesus made it clear that his kingdom was not to be advanced by war, instead it was to be advanced by love. In the 2nd and 3rd centuries, christians understood him to be saying that we are to fight the fight with love. In those centuries christians were not permitted to be in a killing capacity in the military. If they were then they were rejected from fellowship. However after constantine enters the picture we find baptised professing christians making up his army. From what I understand, you could not be in the army unless you were baptised and professing christianity. And for the next 1500 years the catholic church used violence, force, military power etc to advance its agenda. Then likewise the protestant church followed suit, though on a much smaller scale. Regardless of what the scale is, I see no justification for advancing God’s kingdom in this way, and I tend to think that if they use such methods then it isn’t God’s kingdom they are advancing.

That appears to me as a departure.

Looking forward to your thoughts on this.

Jeff

Thanks Jeff. I too look forward to our discussions.

If your church isn’t “us or them” then why aren’t you meeting with other Christians in an already established church?

I love to talk about my faith and to share it with others. I only ask that questions not be framed in an attack. That, to me, is terribly disrespectful and as you’ve seen here on the forum, draws fire like crazy. I can assure you that there is a good answer to your every question about Catholicism. I would urge you to acquire a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church or at least bookmark it here: vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM
so you can read & refer to it. Truth be told…I’ll wager that if you read it all the way through you might find all your questions and objections dissolving.

I fully agree. There cannot have been a total apostasy and there is NO record anywhere of the Catholic Church returning to paganism or departing from NT Christianity. I insist that anyone who alleges otherwise provide historical proofs from the ECF or else admit that the alleged events did not occur. This is very important to honest discussion of the Catholic Faith with those who choose to make this allegation.

Of course there can be a departure! BUT, if the ECF answers a heresy then the matter is settled since they speak for the Catholic Church of their day. Since the ECF are Catholic (holding to Catholic doctrines and practices), that means that Catholics answered those heresies and yet were not the proponents of them.

I disagree with the conclusion that you draw here. Because humans are part of the church our flaws will abound…However; as with ALL Christians, we grow in our understanding of all things. The Israelites took it as divine decree that they were to wipe out the inhabitants of the lands that God gave them. We have it laid out in all our Bibles! Was this really the will of the God of love that we know from our understanding of God’s Word today? So it’s possible for men to misinterpret the will of God even if they are faithful followers… I would say that (sadly and unfortunately) there were times when men did the same thing within the church. Does this invalidate their faith? Does it invalidate the truths of the church?

Pax vobiscum,

 

[jphilapy]

Church Militant:

Thanks Jeff. I too look forward to our discussions.

If your church isn’t “us or them” then why aren’t you meeting with other Christians in an already established church?

We do gather. We gather in homes. Some do gather within an institutional church as well as homes. I personally don’t but I have been invited and have attended before. I prefer to meet in homes because I see it as more effective in discipling believers. Anyway when I said we are not a “us vs them” I meant that we don’t sit around condemning catholics or any others. We welcome them. I remember being part of a charismatic church when I first became a believer. I constantly heard the phrase “those people over there do things etc etc”. They were always comparing themselves to others to make others look bad.

I think it is important to be critical and discerning. But I disagree with the idea that folks are united by what they are against.

Jeff

 

[BibleReader]

Hi, Church Militant.

What thousands of Roman Catholic priests did with young people in our rectories is not “off topic.” In my opinion, it is an expression of the evil of the Great Falling Away, and a terrifyingly huge scandal which really adds to the momentum of the Great Falling Away.

Whenever I try to evangelize, the subject is brought-up by my listener.

Again, any distiction between homosexual priests engaging in sex acts with young folks in the rectories, and “the Church,” tends to be lost on non-Catholics.

The damage which these priests, and the bishops who recommended them to unwary diocese after unwary diocese and innocent flock after innocent flock, did to God’s Holy Church is incredible.

“Fine distinctions” do not make such things go away.

 

[Benadam]

This is something a friend put together as proofs that there not only wasn’t , but can’t be an apostacy.

1. **Was there a complete Apostasy in the first century of the Christian era?
   
   1. 1. 1. a. + 1Tim 4:1 some **depart from faith (but not all).
            
            **
            
            Did Christ lie or simply error in His promises concerning the infallible nature of His Church He planned to “build” as record Holy Bible?
            
            1. 1. 1. b. +Matt 16:18 **gates of hell shall not prevail
                     
                     c. + I Timothy 3:15 the Church is the pillar and ground of truth
                     
                     When did they prevail and how?
                     
                     1. d. + Matt 18:20 where 2-3 are, there I am.
                        
                        e. + Matt 28:20 I am with you always.
                        
                        f. + John 14:18, 23 I will come to you; we will come unto him and abide
                        
                        Has He been with us or not?
                        
                        1. **Did the Holy Ghost (Spirit) simply fail come to the Church yet?
                           
                           1. 1. 1. **g. +John 14:26; 16:13 Holy Ghost shall teach you (the Apostles-the first minister of the Word and Sacraments); and be comforter; Spirit of truth
                                    
                                    h. + Acts 1:8 receive power from Holy Ghost (Spirit)
                                    
                                    i. **+ **John 17:20I pray not for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me thru their word.
                                    
                                    Were the above promises fulfilled before or ignored untill the ‘so called’ reformation?

 

[Catholic_Dude]

BibleReader:

Hi, Church Militant.

What thousands of Roman Catholic priests did with young people in our rectories is not “off topic.” In my opinion, it is an expression of the evil of the Great Falling Away, and a terrifyingly huge scandal which really adds to the momentum of the Great Falling Away.

Whenever I try to evangelize, the subject is brought-up by my listener.

Again, any distiction between homosexual priests engaging in sex acts with young folks in the rectories, and “the Church,” tends to be lost on non-Catholics.

The damage which these priests, and the bishops who recommended them to unwary diocese after unwary diocese and innocent flock after innocent flock, did to God’s Holy Church is incredible.
“Fine distinctions” do not make such things go away.

When I read your posts you seem to be talking all this trash. Then I see the (underlined) quote above and cant figure out what you are trying to get at. Is what a small percentage of priests did a shame and embarrasment to the CC, YES. Is this going to be in our face for a long time, YES. But you cant keep fueling the fire by dumping gas on it. You throw this out as if we have no hope and might as well roll over. First of all who are these people you are talking to, if you really look you will find that small percentages of people in high positions do this kind of stuff everywhere, it just isnt mentioned. This is the media trying to hurt the Church, especially by dishing out skewed data. And in some cases it is turned into no big deal, take for example: The Honorable, Most Reverend, Most High, Most Respectable, Most Holy, Revernend Jessie “High” Jackson…does this guy speak for all black pastors? Why is he held in such a favorable light on every tv station? Did some priests do abominable acts, YES, but you need to correct the notion that every priest acts like this. If you look at America as a whole at that time this country was at an all time moral low. And about this discussion being “lost” to non-Catholics, yes, it is hard to converse with Protestants, especially when they are told to think a certain, and often irrational way. There are lots of factors to consider, and we are fighting an uphill battle.

 

[sparkle]

RSiscoe:

.

Are you calling the heretics of the 16the century, “Christianity’s finest”. I sure hope not. There was nothing “fine” about falling into heresy and persecuting true Christians. And are you calling the Catholic Church a “disgusting Church”. I hope not. Yes, the Church may have had some problems then, but those who fell into heresy as a result of some scandalice behavior do not deserve the title Christianity’s finest": they deserve the title heretic!; and the Church does not deserve to be called a “disgusting Church” because of some bad leaders. The Church is the immaculate bride of Christ; those who fell away in the 16th century were heretics!

We don’t need Catholics calling heretics “Christianity’s finest” and calling the Church “disgusting”. We have enough of that coming out of Rome. God help up.

I love your post! Yes, it seems that these very strange Fundamentalist groups are always saying that the RCC was in such terrible sin, had gotten so sick with indulgences and all, and so that’s why the wonderful reformation happened–that we needed it so, blah blah blah. That all the reformers rescued Christianity—and of course that the RCC is now the black fungus. They of course decide to throw out the first 1500 years of our beautiful faith and our Holy Mother Church with it. Isn’t it just sickening? I’m so sorry but I feel all Protestants are complete heretics. They do not even know what they’re talking about half the time, they pick and choose this, that, they are soooo in the dark about everything. Are these Jack Chick tracks still among every Protestant Church or what? For they are so rapidly spreading what they THINK the Catholic Church teaches without even truly knowing. And the problem is it’s spreading so fast. There should be some way to at least educate these folks on the truth. What do y’all think? Why there is one website I have briefly looked at and any Catholics on it (well maybe 1 or 2) are being soooo attacked and these ridiculous statements are being held up. I can’t even go there. They need a real apologist. The website is www.familylife.com if anyone wants to take a look at their theology forum sometime.

 

[RSiscoe]

sparkle:

I love your post! Yes, it seems that these very strange Fundamentalist groups are always saying that the RCC was in such terrible sin, had gotten so sick with indulgences and all, and so that’s why the wonderful reformation happened–that we needed it so, blah blah blah. That all the reformers rescued Christianity—and of course that the RCC is now the black fungus.

What makes it worse is that the person I was responding to was not a Protestant… but a Catholic. You see, what happens when certain Church leaders pander to the heretics and apologize for supposed “sins” of past Catholics is that the Catholics who hear the disgusting apologies, become kind of “anti-Catholic” themselves. They are led to believe that the Church was the bad guy, and the heretics were “Christianity’s finest”.

Instead of apologizing for supposed sins of others, maybe these same Church leaders should apoligize to the Catholics for failing to governing the Church, and for promoting people such as Kasper, Mahony, and other heretics to Cardinal; and maybe they should apologize for singing the praised of heretics such as Martin Luther; and maybe, while they are at it, they could apologize to God for inviting animists and people of other false religions to the Vatican to break the first commandment, when they offered pagan sacrifices to their false Gods - THE REQUEST OF THE VATICAN. (Sorry, I just had to get that off my chest.)

 

[BibleReader]

Catholic Dude:

When I read your posts you seem to be talking all this trash. Then I see the (underlined) quote above and cant figure out what you are trying to get at. Is what a small percentage of priests did a shame and embarrasment to the CC, YES. Is this going to be in our face for a long time, YES. But you cant keep fueling the fire by dumping gas on it. You throw this out as if we have no hope and might as well roll over. First of all who are these people you are talking to, if you really look you will find that small percentages of people in high positions do this kind of stuff everywhere, it just isnt mentioned. This is the media trying to hurt the Church, especially by dishing out skewed data. And in some cases it is turned into no big deal, take for example: The Honorable, Most Reverend, Most High, Most Respectable, Most Holy, Revernend Jessie “High” Jackson…does this guy speak for all black pastors? Why is he held in such a favorable light on every tv station? Did some priests do abominable acts, YES, but you need to correct the notion that every priest acts like this. If you look at America as a whole at that time this country was at an all time moral low. And about this discussion being “lost” to non-Catholics, yes, it is hard to converse with Protestants, especially when they are told to think a certain, and often irrational way. There are lots of factors to consider, and we are fighting an uphill battle.

Hi, Catholic Dude.

The idea behind openly and bluntly discussing what our Church has done to hurt the young in the 50,000 cases in which the priests have been caught (where there’s probably a large number of such cases in which the juvenile participants, now adults, do not wish to come forward – perhaps another 100% more, for a total of about 100,000 victims) is to shine a light on it and so kill it.

While a small percentage of our priests – about 4.5% according to the Church’s own study – perpetrated the crime, probably the * overwhelming majority of our bishops* participated in the nationwide “shell game” of shifting the perpetrators around from victimized parishes to unwary parishes.

Additionally, according to the book “Goodbye, Good Men,” a large number of our seminaries are still run by homosexual clergy sympathetic to homosexual candidates to the priesthood, a still-dangerous situation in light of the fact that an unbiased study by the Gay Studies Project in the University of Chicago generated evidence that male homosexuals appear to be inherently promiscuous – 87.8% of the large sample of gay men interviewed by them admitted to more than 15 sexual partners, 61.3% admitted to more than 30 sexual partners, and 42.9% admitted to more than 60 sexual partners. In other words, it is arguable that our Church is still functioning as a haven for inherently promiscuous young men.

It sounds like prejudice against our Church, but it’s not.

It’s our Church.

If we don’t openly discuss it, no one will bother to solve the problem, and make us “holy” again.

No matter what, we need to terminate our active participation in “The Great Falling Away.”

 

[MaggieOH]

BibleReader:

Hi, Church Militant.

What thousands of Roman Catholic priests did with young people in our rectories is not “off topic.” In my opinion, it is an expression of the evil of the Great Falling Away, and a terrifyingly huge scandal which really adds to the momentum of the Great Falling Away.

Whenever I try to evangelize, the subject is brought-up by my listener.

Again, any distiction between homosexual priests engaging in sex acts with young folks in the rectories, and “the Church,” tends to be lost on non-Catholics.

The damage which these priests, and the bishops who recommended them to unwary diocese after unwary diocese and innocent flock after innocent flock, did to God’s Holy Church is incredible.

“Fine distinctions” do not make such things go away.

Well I think that the subject is off topic and for a very good reason. First of all, there are not thousands of priests involved in this disgusting behaviour. There are a few priests who have disgraced themselves and the Church by their behaviour. Second, this is not confined to the Catholic Church. There is as much going on in the family home as there is anywhere else.

The subject is also off topic because it tends to get very emotive when people discuss something that generates such heat. What has happened should not have happened. However, the general population have not supported their priests in the past and have put them on to pedestals. When the pedestal has fallen momentarily it because very hard to accept.

Is the anger justified? I do not believe that there should have been all of these lawsuits and such large payouts to these alleged victims of abuse. I still wonder how many did not have such an experience but have been led into believing that something happened.

Regardless, people in glass houses should not throw stones. Let us leave this topic alone because it has nothing to do with the claim about a great apostasy. Besides the ones who started with the claim are the ones who are continuing to hide their own misdeeds.

MaggieOH

 

[MaggieOH]

BibleReader:

Hi, Catholic Dude.

The idea behind openly and bluntly discussing what our Church has done to hurt the young in the 50,000 cases in which the priests have been caught (where there’s probably a large number of such cases in which the juvenile participants, now adults, do not wish to come forward – perhaps another 100% more, for a total of about 100,000 victims) is to shine a light on it and so kill it.

While a small percentage of our priests – about 4.5% according to the Church’s own study – perpetrated the crime, probably the * overwhelming majority of our bishops* participated in the nationwide “shell game” of shifting the perpetrators around from victimized parishes to unwary parishes.

Additionally, according to the book “Goodbye, Good Men,” a large number of our seminaries are still run by homosexual clergy sympathetic to homosexual candidates to the priesthood, a still-dangerous situation in light of the fact that an unbiased study by the Gay Studies Project in the University of Chicago generated evidence that male homosexuals appear to be inherently promiscuous – 87.8% of the large sample of gay men interviewed by them admitted to more than 15 sexual partners, 61.3% admitted to more than 30 sexual partners, and 42.9% admitted to more than 60 sexual partners. In other words, it is arguable that our Church is still functioning as a haven for inherently promiscuous young men.

It sounds like prejudice against our Church, but it’s not.

It’s our Church.

If we don’t openly discuss it, no one will bother to solve the problem, and make us “holy” again.

No matter what, we need to terminate our active participation in “The Great Falling Away.”

Then start a new thread and make sure you get the statistics correct. There is a lot of exaggeration in the above.

Please do not hijack this thread.

MaggieOH

 

[MaggieOH]

Here is a link to an article written by Patrick Madrid on the subject of the Great Apostasy. It would seem that this idea came from Joseph Smith:

ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/MORMON2.htm

To me it does not make sense to make a claim that the Church had been in “apostasy” for something like 1700 years.

You might also want to have a look at this site. It is a lot more colourful

tscpulpitseries.org/english/1980s/ts860507.html

heaven forbid that anyone listens to some good old rock n roll. Better watch out because you just might be an apostate according to this preacher.

Maggie

 

[MaggieOH]

Now I have learned everything there is to know about a great apostasy:

evangelicaloutreach.org/music.htm

Now that Country Music, Southern Gospel, Christian Rock, and Praise and Worship bands are all of Satan…

Have a look and see for your self…

MaggieOH

 

[BibleReader]

Hi, folks.

This thread is about “The Great Apostasy” meantioned by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2, as a sign of the approach of the End of Time.

While I believe that departures of families from non-Catholic Christian congregations would be included in such a sign, because we, the Roman Catholic Church, are THE Church, preeminently The Great Apostasy would refer to departures from OUR Church.

Things like the departure of thousands and the death of vocations as well as mass disobedience of married church-goers in the Church, because of laity insistence on using ABC, or the departure of thousands and the death of vocations because of scandal generated by the 4,392 priests (numbered in the Church’s own study, published in the Catholic Bishop’s own website, at

usccb.org/nrb/johnjaystudy/prev3.pdf)

and by the priests not yet fingered by victims still too ashamed to come forward, as well as the general emptying of Catholic churches in Europe (France is down to something like 3% attending Mass on Sundays), really qualifies quite well as a “Great Apostasy.”

I think that we’re IN “The Great Apostasy.”

Not discussing what happened in the priest cases though it is clearly relevant to a topic because one is a good Catholic and so is deeply depressed by such evidence really is a mistake.

Not discussing the problem so that we fail to stop what happened to those young people really and truly was what caused the problem.

If it’s relevant, as deeply depressing as the subject is, we should energetically discuss it and nastily condemn what happened.

 

[BibleReader]

It just occurred to me what the problem is in this thread – The Great Apostasy is not some wierd idea dreamed-up by Fundamentalists or lunatic fringe cults.

It is in Paul’s Epistles.

Paul uses this Great Apostasy as a sign of the approach of the end of time.
In other words, OUR OWN CHURCH, the Roman Catholic Church, is the source of the concept of the Great Apostasy.

 

[BibleReader]

BibleReader:

It just occurred to me what the problem is in this thread – The Great Apostasy is not some wierd idea dreamed-up by Fundamentalists or lunatic fringe cults.

It is in Paul’s Epistles.

Paul uses this Great Apostasy as a sign of the approach of the end of time.
In other words, OUR OWN CHURCH, the Roman Catholic Church, is the source of the concept of the Great Apostasy.

So, when I post evidence that we are in the midst of The Great Apostasy, I am actually trying to prove that a Catholic prophecy is being fulfilled.

 

[RSiscoe]

BibleReader:

Hi, folks.

This thread is about “The Great Apostasy” meantioned by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2, as a sign of the approach of the End of Time.

While I believe that departures of families from non-Catholic Christian congregations would be included in such a sign, because we, the Roman Catholic Church, are THE Church, preeminently The Great Apostasy would refer to departures from OUR Church.

I think that we’re IN “The Great Apostasy.”

I actually agree with a lot of what you are saying. Where I disagree is when you claim that the heretics of the 16th century were great people. Why would you assume that were “Christianity’s finest”. If they were really such great Christians, they would not left the Church over scandal: they would have remained and dealt with it.

But I do agree that we are in the great apostacy; and I place the blame at the top of the Church higherarchy. The current modernist and liberal Church leaders - right up to the very tip top - have been leading Catholics astray by their disgusting and perverse teachings, such as false ecumenism, which seeks to unite all religions - the true with the false, light with darkness, God will the devil - into one great “whore” (Apoc 17). We were warned of these “wolves” by Pope Pius X, who said the following:

“…the great movement of apostasy being organized in every country for the establishment of a One-World Church which shall have neither dogmas, nor hierarchy, neither discipline for the mind, nor curb for the passions, and which, under the pretext of freedom and human dignity, would bring back to the world (if such a Church could overcome) the reign of legalized cunning and force, and the oppression of the weak, and of all those who toil and suffer.”
–Pope Saint Pius X, “Our Apostolic Mandate,” 1910

This same group that the Pope warned us about are now leading the Church, and seem to have no scruples over believing and teaching things that were explicitly condemned in the sillybus of errors, of Pius IX.

These Church leaders - to the very tip top - are, in my opinion, the reason for the great apostacy. Although some of them put on the appearance of being “conservative” on moral issues (even when they promote pro-abortion Priests to Cardinal), they are flaming liberals when it come to the faith. They have ceased to be Catholic, and have become ecumenists, that is, people who no longer promote the One Church of Christ, but an amalgamation of all religions (so called “unity in diversity”) into “One”

Anne Catherine Emmerick: "I saw a strange church being built against every rule. . . No angels were supervising the building operations. In that church, nothing came from high above. . . There was only division and chaos. It is probably a church of human creation, following the latest fashion, as well as the new heterodox church of Rome, which seems of the same kind…

“I saw many pastors cherishing dangerous ideas against the Church. . . . They built a large, singular, extravagant [ecumenical] church which was to embrace all creeds with equal rights: Evangelicals, Catholics, and all denominations, a true communion of the unholy with one shepherd and one flock. There was to be a Pope, a salaried Pope, without possessions. All was made ready, many things finished; but, in place of an altar, were only abomination and desolation. Such was the new church to be, and it was for it that he had set fire to the old one; but God designed otherwise.”"I saw again the strange big church that was being built there (in Rome). There was nothing holy in it… Everything was being done, according to human reason…

”I saw all sorts of people, things, doctrines, and opinions. There was something proud, presumptuous, and violent about it, and they seemed to be very successful…

"Then, I saw that everything that pertained to Protestantism was gradually gaining the upper hand, and the Catholic religion fell into complete decadence. Most priests were lured by the littering but false knowledge of young school-teachers, and they all contributed to the work of destruction.

“In thence days, Faith will fall very low, and it will be preservedin some places only, in a few cottages and in a few families which God has protected from disasters and wars.”