The Great Debate Continues

[eightydeuce82]

I have a cousin who lives across the United States. His father is a Deacon and he is a good Catholic. I like to think I am as well. A sinner yes and a really bad one but I am a firm believer in the Catholic church and her mercy…on to the subject id like to discuss…

My cousin and I have taken to Facebook to use it as a medium to discuss religion and more specifically see if we can dispel any rumors that are out there regarding our Catholic faith. I must say I have many Protestant friends and I have to say that I am shocked to see the things they are apparently taught about us. Its nothing new the usual idol worship, non-scriptural, yada yada yada…but I am starting to see a real hatred and to me obviously misguided view of us as Catholics. It’s almost like the Reformation (i like to call it a revolt) is still alive and well. Pastors seem to be teaching a very anti-Catholic line to this very day.

So I see one of my friend’s posts something about evangelical pastoral difficulties in keeping a good amount of people attending their church and how if attendance is low the pastor needs to go out to evangelize. The conversation that follows went a little something like this.

Me: You know you should really come out and take a look at the Catholic Church because in general we don’t have that issue. The oratory skills of our priests are of less importance and more emphasis is given to the presence of Christ at the mass… (Obviously it’s a plus if you have a pastor that can give a good homily).

Him: The thing I don’t like about yall is you make up your own history and there is no historical artifacts found to prove anything you all say. Your priests molest children and the Catholic Church just dished out millions in payments to these people…why would I want to join a church like that?

Me: (astonished) Fist off I think you’re confusing the Mormon’s and the Catholics, There has been no historic proof of Mormon history. Catholics on the other hand trace our roots back 2000 years to the traditions of the apostles. As a matter of fact you can thank a catholic for the bible that you read every day. As for molesting children…If you look at statistics I’m sure you will find more widespread molesting of children on the protestant side of the house but in all honesty it has happened and these people are evil no matter what side they are on.

Him: That’s bull the Catholics didn’t come up with the bible it was Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic and was created in Gutenberg (i know i spelled it wrong so did he) (I face palmed this one).

Me: You need to reexamine your history. The bible was first PRINTED in Gutenberg but the formation of the bible took place between 100-383 approximately. You did know the first Christians were Hebrew right? They were Jewish converts and Romans?

ME: Did you think that god just dropped the bible from heaven in the 1500s? (I know not nice of me)

I then took the conversation private because he wasn’t faring to well and was starting to look kind of foolish. I sent him a message that said he really should look at history and gave him the typical Catholic really condensed timeline and he responded back that he does not study history because it detracts from god!!!

I told him simply reading the bible is reading history and that learning about one’s faith and its historical roots can do nothing but strengthen ones faith.

Now I know that there are Catholics out there that I call bullet point Catholics that have no idea what and why we do what we do (in fact far too many) but is this really what we are confronting with your typical Protestant normal person? Why is it that a denomination is teaching hatred toward another and misleading its people like my poor friend? Is this really what it’s come to in the Protestant world…not only do they teach solo scriptura but a healthy heaping of anti-Catholic sentiment? This is not the first person I have had these types of conversations with as I lived in Southern Virginia in the Blue Ridge smack dab in the bible belt. This has been my consensus overall after thousands of conversations trying to defend the faith…My own mother is Methodist and she even has these built in even having married a catholic and been exposed all these years…

This has me troubled and has proven to be a lost cause as no matter how well I explain to these people why we do what we do, they never seem to get it. They hold firm that I am evil and a member of the anti-Christ church. I’m talking about normal people here not theologians…it just has me very disappointed and saddened. I know that Catholics could be painted in the same picture as there are intolerant members among us as well but I have been to many churches across the US and abroad and lived in the same and only really felt this from the other side. Remember my mother is not catholic so I have sympathy for both sides and have seen both sides of the field…very sad.

 

[JackieO123]

It’s no debate; the Church is right.

 

[Auntie_A]

Yes,there is a lot of misinformation that keeps getting repeated and if it’s repeated often enough, many begin to believe it is a fact. AND, there is a significant amount of outright hatred for what some perceive the Church stands for and this gets passed on as well. I like your simple argument to check history. Be prepared to have some decent history books to refer to since we live in a revisionist time where even history is turned upside down.

I like listing the cultural accomplishments of the Church, the social movements, and even its enemies through history. Why did/do the KKK hate the “papists” so much? Why was it so controversial that Kennedy was a Catholic—an Irish Catholic? Why did the communists attack the Catholic populations in North Vietnam? What is/was so dangerous about Catholic Poland, Czechoslovakia, Ukraine?

 

[eightydeuce82]

It most certainly has become the norm. I think the ideas of the reformation ended with that generation and only the hatred of that generation became the normal teachings to general people not of Catholic origin. It just strikes me as sad and unfortunatly unchangable. Im a history buff so I have my history down pretty good so no worries there. I know I am called to spread the word and defend the church I just find it expecially here in the US with our declining moral codes harder and harder to accomplish.

 

[Miserissima]

I’m going to subscribe to this thread. The most difficult thing for me to respond to is, “I don’t need to know history / historical context to understand the Bible.” I’d like to learn how others have countered this. I know that I could ask next about teaching authority, but at that point when I hear that phrase, I start to shut it down nicely.

I had a roommate once who asked all sorts of questions about rye Catholic view of sin and said “I don’t need to know what concupiscence is, because I’m going to Bible college and that’s not in the Bible.”

 

[ynotzap]

A lie never lasts, the truth endures on it’s own. the Churches founded by man will not last because of human corruption, and disunity Jesus said you will have persecution, and if they reject Him, they will persecute and reject you. He also said that He will sustain His Church to the end of time, and His words will not pass away. We can’t convert but we can witness to the truth, Jesus Christ. We can agree where we can and disagree where we must all in the spirit of love. You can’t reason with people whose reason is clouded by hatred. Not to worry God has a plan, and there is light on the horizon The splits in Christianity have come about because of Satan’s activity which causes division, the Holy Spirit causes unity, Glorify Jesus always, and you will witness Satan’s grip on humanity weaken and you will be on the winning side cheering for Him, the Conquering Lion of Peace

 

[po18guy]

Human words fail to convince. It is the Holy Spirit Who convicts a heart of truth. I would leave it to the Holy Spirit and simply pray for him. Far better to win a heart than to win an argument. This may take years, or even decades. Not very satisfying, I know.

 

[eightydeuce82]

To my friend it seem history only started after Luthor…anything else before that was non important. This was taught to him by someone. This is why he though the bible wasnt created by catholics and he confused mormonism to catholocism. I tried to compel him that knowing your particular denominations history is important. The why am I a catholic or a methodist should be an important question in any faith setting. Im pretty sure he doesnt even know anything about Martin Luthor even though he says God bless martin luthor all the time!

The problem is it isnt just him and it seems to be becoming the norm for not just religion but in just about everything. Since this is a religious forum ill stick to the religion side.

Having seen both sides and given a choice I could not see how following the apostles teaching and tradition was a bad thing. Sure MEN in the church have done some bad things but that does not make the CHURCH bad just those men. Is this concept really lost to our protestant brothers? Its like all the things Luthor disliked about MEN in the church became Protestant Dogma as defacto Catholic.

The idea that scripture alone resonates from every non catholic denomination and they have forgotten that WE put that bible they read together in the first place. Its almost like they just mute that part of history and litterally dont teach future generations about that catholic history part of their faith and you get people like my friend

 

[sierradepadre]

I am sorry to read what you are going through. Having read what the other person has said, it is obvious to me and many others that that individual is full of so much hate and anger, I find them scary. . Some thoughts:

I.Facebook: May not be the best place to gently lead anyone to any truth about anything if their mind is already made up.
A. what happens when you click on their page? Does their page have a lot of info about them and pictures so you know this person is real and not some “false” individual who has gotten on only to make trouble.
B. from what you have “paraphrased”, they have not stated any facts, only generalities . One option might be to give them some facts and post the facts and also a link.
a. My gut reaction is they will not counter with anything but only continue with their remarks based on hate.
C. I might just be honest and say something like," I am sorry you have so much misinformation. What are saying is very scary and that is why I have posted the links so you can read some facts."
D. There is no way you will “win.” The most you might be able to do is to post some facts and ,say what ever you wish and be done with them.
E. I think most people who go on Facebook are their not to be informed about religion but to share pictures and stories about what they are doing or where they went so most are not going to bother.
Finally, you have a lot of info from others and you can decide, I would pray on it but whatever you do, do not get pulled into the hate and anger because that is really what they want you to do!
sierradepadre

 

[eightydeuce82]

Id be interested to hear from our protestant friends.

 

[InNomineDomini]

… “I don’t need to know history / historical context to understand the Bible.” I’d like to learn how others have countered this.

If this is a variant of an argument for biblical perspicuity, then I would personally feel most comfortable taking the discussion in a baptism direction. If the Scriptures are sufficiently clear on the most important matters dealing with salvation (an assumption brought to the Scriptures not derived from them) then:

• Is Baptism regenerative? Who may receive it? Which of the various schools of Protestant interpretation should be believed when they disagree amongst each other? Why?

Non-regenerative, infants: Calvin
Regenerative, infants: Luther
Non-regenerative, adults: Baptists
Regenerative, adults: Churches of Christ
No baptism at all: Salvation Army, Quakers

If we are commanded in Scripture to be baptized as a criterion for salvation, then does Scripture alone afford us with sufficient doctrinal data to answer the above questions about the nature and proper recipient of baptism? If yes, then why is there so much confusion on this matter? Sin? Stupidity?

Many Protestants adhere to doctrines which they think are biblical, and which they can point to in the bible with various degrees of confidence. But many of such Protestants have merely inherited a method of interpreting the bible from their denomination. This is something they can reflect on if given the opportunity: they’ve inherited a tradition which can be located in history. Do they accept the tradition because it is reflected in Scripture, or do they see doctrines in Scripture because they’ve accepted a tradition? Cutting off from history makes this question incredibly difficult to answer.

 

[PJM]

=eightydeuce82;11771271]I have a cousin who lives across the United States. His father is a Deacon and he is a good Catholic. I like to think I am as well. A sinner yes and a really bad one but I am a firm believer in the Catholic church and her mercy…on to the subject id like to discuss…

My cousin and I have taken to Facebook to use it as a medium to discuss religion and more specifically see if we can dispel any rumors that are out there regarding our Catholic faith. I must say I have many Protestant friends and I have to say that I am shocked to see the things they are apparently taught about us. Its nothing new the usual idol worship, non-scriptural, yada yada yada…but I am starting to see a real hatred and to me obviously misguided view of us as Catholics. It’s almost like the Reformation (i like to call it a revolt) is still alive and well. Pastors seem to be teaching a very anti-Catholic line to this very day.

So I see one of my friend’s posts something about evangelical pastoral difficulties in keeping a good amount of people attending their church and how if attendance is low the pastor needs to go out to evangelize. The conversation that follows went a little something like this.

Me: You know you should really come out and take a look at the Catholic Church because in general we don’t have that issue. The oratory skills of our priests are of less importance and more emphasis is given to the presence of Christ at the mass… (Obviously it’s a plus if you have a pastor that can give a good homily).

Him: The thing I don’t like about yall is you make up your own history and there is no historical artifacts found to prove anything you all say. Your priests molest children and the Catholic Church just dished out millions in payments to these people…why would I want to join a church like that?

Me: (astonished) Fist off I think you’re confusing the Mormon’s and the Catholics, There has been no historic proof of Mormon history. Catholics on the other hand trace our roots back 2000 years to the traditions of the apostles. As a matter of fact you can thank a catholic for the bible that you read every day. As for molesting children…If you look at statistics I’m sure you will find more widespread molesting of children on the protestant side of the house but in all honesty it has happened and these people are evil no matter what side they are on.

Him: That’s bull the Catholics didn’t come up with the bible it was Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic and was created in Gutenberg (i know i spelled it wrong so did he) (I face palmed this one).

Me: You need to reexamine your history. The bible was first PRINTED in Gutenberg but the formation of the bible took place between 100-383 approximately. You did know the first Christians were Hebrew right? They were Jewish converts and Romans?

ME: Did you think that god just dropped the bible from heaven in the 1500s? (I know not nice of me)

I then took the conversation private because he wasn’t faring to well and was starting to look kind of foolish. I sent him a message that said he really should look at history and gave him the typical Catholic really condensed timeline and he responded back that he does not study history because it detracts from god!!!

I told him simply reading the bible is reading history and that learning about one’s faith and its historical roots can do nothing but strengthen ones faith.

Now I know that there are Catholics out there that I call bullet point Catholics that have no idea what and why we do what we do (in fact far too many) but is this really what we are confronting with your typical Protestant normal person? Why is it that a denomination is teaching hatred toward another and misleading its people like my poor friend? Is this really what it’s come to in the Protestant world…not only do they teach solo scriptura but a healthy heaping of anti-Catholic sentiment? This is not the first person I have had these types of conversations with as I lived in Southern Virginia in the Blue Ridge smack dab in the bible belt. This has been my consensus overall after thousands of conversations trying to defend the faith…My own mother is Methodist and she even has these built in even having married a catholic and been exposed all these years…

This has me troubled and has proven to be a lost cause as no matter how well I explain to these people why we do what we do, they never seem to get it. They hold firm that I am evil and a member of the anti-Christ church. I’m talking about normal people here not theologians…it just has me very disappointed and saddened. I know that Catholics could be painted in the same picture as there are intolerant members among us as well but I have been to many churches across the US and abroad and lived in the same and only really felt this from the other side. Remember my mother is not catholic so I have sympathy for both sides and have seen both sides of the field…very sad.

Sever points from a 69 year old Catholic;

Always charity
yes speak the truth [NICELY} regardless of what THEY are doing

There is a MUST read book:
****Fundamentalism and Catholicism *** by Karl Keating the founder of this Forum

It’s an “oldie but GOODIE” and Google it and you should be able to find a copy.

Its the BEST defence of our beliefs I have found in one place:thumbsup: And its cheap too

There is no substitute for charity; and it’s something they don’t expect and it confuses many of them.

Thanks for posting,
Patrick

 

[sierradepadre]

I want to reiterate what I posted before a bit more succinctly. You are not going to win or convince this individual.

What will happen is that you will learn a lot more about being a Catholic and our faith( this includes me)

And if by some rare chance that this person would decide to include some scriptural evidence (so to speak), then the only thing that would lead to would be scriptural war on Facebook? Fruitless.

Did the person really use the word ,'Y’ALL" They are playing a game. I would choose not to play.

Ever the phrase. “never wrestle with a pig in the mud cause you get mud all over yourself and the pig likes it?”

I would focus on lent and there you might find a new direction
Sierradepadre:shrug:

 

[EIF5A]

If not by history, then perhaps your friend might be appealed to by the fruits of charity and virtues of the saints throughout history. He may not believe in the Real Presence or Sacraments yet, but surely, even unbelievers see the light of the various virtues exhibited by the holy saints and servants of God — as a Protestant, I’m sure the beauty of virtue would not be lost to him…

Might I humbly suggest the lives and sayings of the Desert Fathers as an option. They are old enough that he can’t claim Roman “innovation”, and the early fathers and hermits express the true teachings of the Church (e.g., Real Presence of the Eucharist).

 

[PJM]

=EIF5A;11783121]If not by history, then perhaps your friend might be appealed to by the fruits of charity and virtues of the saints throughout history. He may not believe in the Real Presence or Sacraments yet, but surely, even unbelievers see the light of the various virtues exhibited by the holy saints and servants of God — as a Protestant, I’m sure the beauty of virtue would not be lost to him…

Might I humbly suggest the lives and sayings of the Desert Fathers as an option. They are old enough that he can’t claim Roman “innovation”, and the early fathers and hermits express the true teachings of the Church (e.g., Real Presence of the Eucharist).

VERY nicely done my friend, thank you!
Patrick

 

[Kal2012]

You really have to pick and choose your battles.

I know plenty of Protestants I can have a great Biblical discussion with because they know their Bible and aren’t anti-Catholic.

However, I know plenty of Protestants where they think they know their Bible and are very anti-Catholic. I just smile and tell them that we aren’t going to care who’s right when we are standing face to face with Jesus. All of us will revel in his presence when we are face to face with our Savior. For now, we’ll have to agree to disagree. I don’t engage this type of person unless I think it is worth my time to do.

There’s a difference between someone who just wants to spout off what they know and someone who is willing to listen and learn about what the Catholic church really teaches.

Also, we have Catholics who don’t know their history or theology. How can we expect Protestants to know better when they get the "ex-Catholics"in their churches complaining about how awful the RCC is (and reinforces their already suspicious attitudes towards Catholics)? Protestants are taught, in some form, our church is different from Catholicism because…

As a convert to the RCC, I can tell you that the attitude “we are different and here’s why” is mainstream and normal. I’ve noticed the most anti-Catholicism from older generations and ex-Catholics and those in the agnostic/atheist category. There’s a difference between having sincere theological differences with the RCC and just being an Anti-Catholic hater.

That’s why I advocate picking and choosing your battles.

I’d also explain to your cousin that it was the monks who copied the books of the Bible so they would be preserved and spread to other communities. It was usually the priests and the monks who were among the small group of educated and literate people in most communities before the invention of the printing press. Most people couldn’t read or write. Literacy wasn’t a high value for a lot of people at that time.

And, Of course, the RCC didn’t write the Bible (seriously?), but it gathered the books together and put them in one volume so it would be easier to access.

 

[PJM]

=Kal2012;11783581]You really have to pick and choose your battles.

I know plenty of Protestants I can have a great Biblical discussion with because they know their Bible and aren’t anti-Catholic.

However, I know plenty of Protestants where they think they know their Bible and are very anti-Catholic. I just smile and tell them that we aren’t going to care who’s right when we are standing face to face with Jesus. All of us will revel in his presence when we are face to face with our Savior. For now, we’ll have to agree to disagree. I don’t engage this type of person unless I think it is worth my time to do.

There’s a difference between someone who just wants to spout off what they know and someone who is willing to listen and learn about what the Catholic church really teaches.

Also, we have Catholics who don’t know their history or theology. How can we expect Protestants to know better when they get the "ex-Catholics"in their churches complaining about how awful the RCC is (and reinforces their already suspicious attitudes towards Catholics)? Protestants are taught, in some form, our church is different from Catholicism because…

As a convert to the RCC, I can tell you that the attitude “we are different and here’s why” is mainstream and normal. I’ve noticed the most anti-Catholicism from older generations and ex-Catholics and those in the agnostic/atheist category. There’s a difference between having sincere theological differences with the RCC and just being an Anti-Catholic hater.

That’s why I advocate picking and choosing your battles.

I’d also explain to your cousin that it was the monks who copied the books of the Bible so they would be preserved and spread to other communities. It was usually the priests and the monks who were among the small group of educated and literate people in most communities before the invention of the printing press. Most people couldn’t read or write. Literacy wasn’t a high value for a lot of people at that time.

And, Of course, the RCC didn’t write the Bible (seriously?), but it gathered the books together and put them in one volume so it would be easier to access.

My friend you were ding really good right up to your last statement.

Catholics certainly did not write the bible
BUT MOST CERTAINLY DID ERIRE THE ENTIRE NEW TESTAMENT:thumbsup:

God Bless you,
Patrick