The great kneeler controversy

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loyola_rambler

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Ceteris parabis, I’m sure this will bring out some strong emotion. But it’s an interesting controversy, so here goes.

For over 15 years, parishes were taking out kneelers at the request of their bishops and cardinals. For many parishes it was a legal matter because the kneelers were causing a lot of injuries and bringing about a lot of law suits. For others it was just a matter of the prelate’s preference.

While on my parish’s pastoral council a few years ago, we looked to raise about $3mm for some major renovations. The architect from the Archdiocese came to visit and told us that the kneelers had to go. That was going to add over $100,000 to our bill because the kneelers were literally holding the bottom of the pews together. They ended up with a compromise and put in bars. Fastforward another year and we get a letter from the Archdiocese that the cardinal wanted estimates from every parish on the cost of putting the kneelers back into the pews. Ouch!

Well the final estimate was almost $300,000 (these were 125 year old pews and we could have replaced them for $500,000). The Archdiocese wasn’t going to put up any money to restore the kneelers, but the cardinal asked that any subsequent renovations consider putting back the kneelers. That’s easier said than done since we still didn’t have the funds to even pay off replacing the slate roof that leaked like a sieve.

Some people want to kneel even when the kneelers are missing. Others find it very difficult to even get all the way to the floor and back up because the pews are very narrow and those 6" make a big difference. Some who are used to not having kneelers sit even when the kneelers are present.

So what’s your take on it? I know the kneeling isn’t supposed to be optional, but on occasion the exception has to be made (such as my former parish where the floor is crumbling and the steam pipes that heat the church run through the pews. Barring that, do you stand, sit or kneel and what’s your own preference (beyond what’s written or the norm in your parish)?
 
One of the mission churches that we attend does not have kneelers. The parish we attend on a regular basis has kneelers.

The consecration in both churches transform the bread and wine into the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. The eucharistic prayers are identical and transubstantiation occurs.

With this is mind, I kneel during the consecration. I am fortunately, blessed with being able to do so and I will continue to do so, kneelers or not until I can no longer kneel.
 
Good morning. 🙂

I’d just like to warn that I’ve not had my coffee yet this morning. :o

Sad that the reason for not replacing the kneelers (which never should’ve been removed in the first place) boils down to the Almighty Buck.

How many people really sue the Church and win anything because they tripped over a stationery kneeler (which they should’ve known was there, as all Catholic Church’s have used them for 100’s of years!) ? Millions of the faithful’s contributions have gone down the drain to settle lawsuits for other “indiscretions” within the Church, and the bishops seem to be able to come up with those funds.

I really do think that the kneelers or lack thereof represent two things:

  1. *]the diocese’s willingness to obey the Magisterium and
    *]the diocese’s care, concern, and consideration of the physical needs of the faithful who worship in your church.

    The reason that I look to the diocese is that It had to approve of all the expenditures for your parish’s rennovations in the first place. It approved the removal of the original kneelers.

    Ever been to a diocesan soiree? They’re pretty extravagant in most dioceses (from what I hear).

    Should a shepherd’s priority be to keep his church structures sturdy and “liturgically correct” for the faithful of his diocese, or to entertain the “inner circle” several times a year and live lavishly?

    The cost of replacing the kneelers is nothing compared to what “some” dioceses have had to shell out for lawsuits due to scandalous conduct by priests and bishops.

    Priorities.

    I really think our clergy needs to get back to Poverty, Chastity, and Obedience. (Even if they didn’t take these vows, they’re still great virtues to practice, and if they love the churches in their diocese they should be willing to make “some” sacrifices in order to afford to maintain them.)

    That said, the faithful, too, with their second homes, third & fourth cars, etc. (if they have those things) should feel twinges of guilt when they sit during the Consecration because there was not sufficient contributions to replace the kneelers.

    Again, priorities.

    (After I have my coffee, I’ll probably regret saying this.) 😦

    Pax Christi. <><
 
I once attended Mass at a firestation in Virginia (a new parish without a home). Since they used folding chairs there were no kneelers. All the regular parishoners brought little throw pillows to kneel. There were a stock of these little pillows at the entrance for visitors.
 
It just shows a lack of faith of the bishop and those he shepherds.

If the Lord and Savior of the Universe were to physically manifest Himself in front of them, they’d be on their knees immediately and willingly!.

But when this is done at mass, it is yawning time.
 
Am I gonna kneel? You betcha kneelers or not. I can always offer it up.
 
loyola rambler:
Some people want to kneel even when the kneelers are missing…
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Some people are obedient even when it is inconvenient and uncomfortable.
Doesn’t this send a powerful message?
Kudos to those who kneel, despite the absence of kneelers.
Some who are used to not having kneelers sit even when the kneelers are present.
Click to expand...
Are you sure they sit because they’re used to “no kneelers?” Maybe they have back or knee problems, or are prideful, or don’t know any better. Kneelers haven’t been out of most churches all that long!
How can you be sure that they’d still sit if kneelers were provided?
 
We attend a big parish that has Masses in both the church and the school. In the church, we usually sit in the transcepts where there are no kneelers. In the school, there are no kneelers because Mass is said in the auditorium.

Take a guess which family sticks out like a sore thumb in both places.
 
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condan:
Take a guess which family sticks out like a sore thumb in both places.
Click to expand...
👍

Well this thumb’s not sore!

😉 😃 :love:

Pax Christi. <><
 
15 to 20 years ago the diocese Of St. Petersburg decided to form one priest parishes and build utility building churches. Combination church, parish recreation center and offices. Mass one day dance hall the next. No kneelers just linked together chairs so close that there is no way to kneel even on the floor.

You sit during the consecration like you are home watching TV. You can’t even kneel for the exhibition of the Blessed Sacrament.
The priest says , " No one is stopping you from kneeling."
Break a leg and sue the Bishop I guess.
 
We have kneelers in our church, and we use them. The first row of chairs on both sides have no kneelers, but it is understood that those are reserved for people with physical problems that can’t kneel (like me at the moment) At another church, they had kneelers, but didn’t use them, because the priest said they were too noisy. Go figure! That church is now closed.
 
When traveling, if a parish doesn’t have kneelers- I won’t go back. Luckily it isn’t often I stumble upon no-kneeler parishes.

With the new GIRM, doesn’t it make it much clearer now to kneel during consecration and during the eucharistic prayer? If so, maybe the Bishops have reversed the “no-kneeler” policy. Now if they would just stop transferring Holy Days to Sundays!!!
 
tom.wineman said:
15 to 20 years ago the diocese Of St. Petersburg decided to form one priest parishes and build utility building churches. Combination church, parish recreation center and offices. Mass one day dance hall the next. No kneelers just linked together chairs so close that there is no way to kneel even on the floor.
Click to expand...

Not surprisingly, at about that same time in that diocese, my brother got married. At the Nuptial Mass, he and his wife fed each other Holy Communion like It was a piece of wedding cake or something. :mad:
The priest says , " No one is stopping you from kneeling."
Break a leg and sue the Bishop I guess.
Click to expand...
That’s it!!! You’ve got it!!!
Write a letter to your pastor with copy to the bishop, citing the GIRM stating that we kneel.
Politely insist upon proper furnishings to participate in the Mass, citing your concern for possible liabilities if anyone who follows the rubrics should get injured. A dispensation from kneeling would not save their pocketbooks should a faithful kneeler become disabled from a poorly-designed and constructed “worship space!” :bounce:

Anybody know a good lawyer??? 😃 😉
 
The medieval cathedrals never had either pews or kneelers, pews were unknown during the first 3/4 of RCC history.

In New York City, the Protestant Cathedral of St. John the Divine is being built based on authentic RCC traditions for such buildings, there are no pews there.

If a modern RCC parish doesn’t build kneelers or pews into its nave, its actually a return to an older tradition and not a new innovation.
 
At the name of Jesus, every knee should bend!

I think it is crazy that we are even having this conversation. What kind of religious leaders would take the kneelers out of “The Church” !!!

I don’t particulary enjoy being on my knees, I’ve always considered myself to have week knees, I’ve kneeled through Mass on cement floors many times - most of the time I wimp out and put something under my knees but sometimes I use it as a sacrifice and offer it up for the conversion of someone I love and just when I start thinking I can’t take it anymore, I think of my Lord Jesus Crucified and the 3 inch thorns that they drove into his head and he allowed this to happen for love of me. So how does my sacrifice even begin to compare!

If the leaders of “The Church” are making these hair brain decisions then it is time for the people to stand up and say STOP!
 
*At the name of Jesus, every knee should bend!

I think it is crazy that we are even having this conversation. What kind of religious leaders would take the kneelers out of “The Church” !!! *

The issue isn’t kneeling, but kneelers. Kneelers aren’t really an ancient part of RCC tradition, being introduced at a fairly late date. Whether the people ought to kneel, stand, or whatever, is a separate situation.
 
tom.wineman said:
" No one is stopping you from kneeling."
Break a leg and sue the Bishop I guess.
Click to expand...

I should think the Bishops are so use to being sued now, that being sued for a broken leg might be a welcomed relief.
 
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Fullsizesedan:
If a modern RCC parish doesn’t build kneelers or pews into its nave, its actually a return to an older tradition and not a new innovation.
Click to expand...
Wasn’t that Luther’s mindset when he decided to throw out the Deuterocanonical books out of the canon?
 
Fullsizesedan is totally right about the medieval church and its lack of pews and kneelers. People stood for the mass, and then at the consecration, the most pious among them knelt. The rest didn’t. I’m not sure who invented the pew and/or the kneeler, but it is a relatively modern invention. Campion’s equation of Fullsizesedan and Luther made me howl with laughter!

For the record, I hate kneelers. If I’m going to kneel, I’d rather do it on the floor.

Naprous
 
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