B
Bookcat
Guest
And the Canonized Saints who did not always avoid them? But enjoyed them…
They were less saintlike?
No.
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They were less saintlike?
No.
B
Bookcat
Guest
I will do better than that and let then Pope Benedict XVI explain it:
" Jesus said, “He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life” (Jn 12: 25). Thus, if we can die to our selfishness, if we refuse to withdraw into ourselves and make our life a gift to God and to our brethren, we too will be able to know the rich fruitfulness of love. And love does not die."
–Pope Benedict XVI
from vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20080423_card-trujillo_en.html
“Dear brothers and sisters, this is the demanding way of the Cross that Jesus points out to all his disciples. On several occasions he said, “If anyone wants to serve me, let him follow me”. There is no alternative for the Christian who wishes to fulfil his vocation. It is the “law” of the Cross, described with the image of the grain of wheat that dies in order that new life may germinate; it is the “logic” of the Cross, recalled also in today’s Gospel: “He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life”. “To hate” one’s life is a strong and paradoxical Semitic expression that clearly emphasizes the radical totality which must distinguish those who follow Christ and, out of love for him, put themselves at the service of their brethren. They lose their life and thus find it. There is no other way to experience the joy and the true fruitfulness of Love: the way of giving oneself, of self-giving, of losing oneself in order to find oneself.”
~ Pope Benedict XVI:
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20090329_magliana_en.html
B
Bookcat
Guest
And the Canonized Saints who did not always avoid them? But enjoyed them…
They were less saintlike?
M
Michael_Mayo
Guest
You despise this gift of God? And think so little of it?
P
philipl
Guest
T
TK421
Guest
Jesus & Mary would have drank wine, not beer, and the wedding feast more than likely had mutton, beef, or fish, since pizza ovens were not invented yet, unless the Blessed Mother petitioned Jesus further into creating a Chicago Deep Dish out of the bread, but this is unlikely and either way it isn’t recorded. Pepperoni would have been off the menu unless it was a kosher alternative.
But, yes, their happiness did not rely on earthly pleasures.
To increase in holiness is to increase in love towards God & others. It is often the case that worldly pleasures obstruct this, but there is nothing in of themselves about sensual pleasures that are problematic, and - at less common times - the denial of them could be problematic, such as refusing hospitality. There is no specific formula for sainthood since this pool consists of monks, priests, kings, queens, doctors, lawyers, thieves, prostitutes, philosophers, warriors, teachers, craftsman, children, and others. The universal formula is love and the fruits that spring from it.
R
Robert_Sock
Guest
Did anybody have the chance to view and comment upon The Stations of the Cross by St Francis of Assisi?
youtube.com/watch?v=oZ9om4YElns
youtube.com/watch?v=oZ9om4YElns
R
Robert_Sock
Guest
"The death of the just: Death will reach everyone, the good and the bad; but the destiny of each one is quite different. The just man sees himself in this valley of tears as a prisoner, serving a very hard term. He considers himself a slave in this world, suffering an extremely distressing servitude. He regards himself a sailor caught in a horrible storm. And as death means an end of his confinement, an end of his slavery, and is the port of his salvation, he ceases not to cry with David, ‘Woe is me that my sojourning is prolonged!’ (Ps. 119:5)… He ceases not to ask with the Apostle’… Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (Rom. 7:24)”
-The Golden Key to Heaven, by Saint Anthony Mary Claret
-The Golden Key to Heaven, by Saint Anthony Mary Claret
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Robert_Sock
Guest
Whatever you do in this life, do it to bring yourself closer to God!
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puzzledtoo
Guest
“Whatever you do in this life…” To me this makes a nice definition of the saintly life.
M
MtnDwellar
Guest
I agree with what I think you are saying. Prayer and sacrifice are the doorways to a spiritual life. There are many ways to sacrifice. Avoiding material pleasure is a good one. Helping others, visiting the sick, and donating to charity are also good.
I happen to think that people sometimes use the “attachment clause” as a way to justify an abundance of material possessions. ie. “I’m not attached to my summer home, mansion, or yacht.” My thinking is that sacrifice is a doorway and unnecessary possessions are bricks in a wall that block our spiritual advancement. Material pleasures are akin to material possessions.
We are all called to sacrifice and to give. Some of us are called to give everything.
R
Robert_Sock
Guest
Meditation
Prayer
-The Way of the Cross, St Francis of Assisi
Code:
The body of Jesus is interred in a stranger's sepulchre. He who in this world had not whereupon to rest His head, would not even have a grave of His own, because He was not from this world. You, who are so attached to the world, henceforth despise it, that you may not perish with it.
Code:
O Jesus, Thou hast set me apart from the world; what, then, shall I seek therein? Thou hast created me for Heaven; what, then, have I to do with the world? Depart from me, deceitful world, with thy vanities! Henceforth I will follow the Way of the Cross traced out for me by my Redeemer, and journey onward to my heavenly home, there to dwell forever and ever.
P
puzzledtoo
Guest
Is despise being used by the author the same as hate is supposedly used in the bible? As in “like less” rather than how we view hate or despise now?
I would offer that the greatest freedom is freedom from our own egotism rather than worldly pleasures. Let go of the ego and we can let go of an over attachment to the world.
I would offer that the greatest freedom is freedom from our own egotism rather than worldly pleasures. Let go of the ego and we can let go of an over attachment to the world.
This from Sathya Sai--I want peace- I is ego-Want is desire-Remove ego and desire and you have peace.
B
Bookcat
Guest
Important to read in context - and understood correctly. Older language can be misleading to modern ears.
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Robert_Sock
Guest
I would think that losing our ego is more important than letting go of the pleasures of the world. Again, I believe it all has to do with the level of saintliness we are seeking.
I like listening to classical music, with plenty of Masses and Gregorian Chants, but I would like to think that it brings me closer to God, so I do not believe that all pleasures are to be abandoned, just those that are irrelevant to our serving God. And we should all feel the higher-ordered gifts of the Holy Spirit and the joy in contemplating the World to Come.
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PluniaZ
Guest
My own experience is that a lot of worldly pleasures distract from and hinder my spiritual life. Things like TV, video games, popular music, etc.
I’m having a hard time giving them up at the moment
I’m having a hard time giving them up at the moment
B
Bookcat
Guest
"“Be not conformed to this world” (Rom. 12:2). Here by the world is meant that spirit of vanity and malice which transforms into an instrument of sin those human energies intended for the service of God and man.
Hence if anyone wants to know how this unhappy situation can be overcome, Christians will tell him that all human activity, constantly imperiled by man’s pride and deranged self-love, must be purified and perfected by the power of Christ’s cross and resurrection. For redeemed by Christ and made a new creature in the Holy Spirit, man is able to love the things themselves created by God, and ought to do so. He can receive them from God and respect and reverence them as flowing constantly from the hand of God. Grateful to his Benefactor for these creatures, using and enjoying them in detachment and liberty of spirit, man is led forward into a true possession of them, as having nothing, yet possessing all things.(9) “All are yours, and you are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s” (1 Cor. 3:22-23)."
~ The Second Vatican Council
GAUDIUM ET SPES
PROMULGATED BY
HIS HOLINESS, POPE PAUL VI
ON DECEMBER 7, 1965
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651207_gaudium-et-spes_en.html
Hence if anyone wants to know how this unhappy situation can be overcome, Christians will tell him that all human activity, constantly imperiled by man’s pride and deranged self-love, must be purified and perfected by the power of Christ’s cross and resurrection. For redeemed by Christ and made a new creature in the Holy Spirit, man is able to love the things themselves created by God, and ought to do so. He can receive them from God and respect and reverence them as flowing constantly from the hand of God. Grateful to his Benefactor for these creatures, using and enjoying them in detachment and liberty of spirit, man is led forward into a true possession of them, as having nothing, yet possessing all things.(9) “All are yours, and you are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s” (1 Cor. 3:22-23)."
~ The Second Vatican Council
GAUDIUM ET SPES
PROMULGATED BY
HIS HOLINESS, POPE PAUL VI
ON DECEMBER 7, 1965
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651207_gaudium-et-spes_en.html
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nuntym
Guest
+JMJ+
Learn the virtue of eutrapelia.
If things are stumbling blocks to sainthood, they are not permissible. Please be consistent.
Run, jump, play, laugh, make noise but do not sin. - St John Bosco.
Learn the virtue of eutrapelia.
N
nuntym
Guest
+JMJ+
On the subject of eutrapelia, St Thomas Aquinas has this to say:
In human affairs whatever is against reason is a sin. Now it is against reason for a man to be burdensome to others, by offering no pleasure to others, and by hindering their enjoyment. Wherefore Seneca [Martin of Braga, Formula Vitae Honestae: cap. De Continentia] says (De Quat. Virt., cap. De Continentia): “Let your conduct be guided by wisdom so that no one will think you rude, or despise you as a cad.” Now a man who is without mirth, not only is lacking in playful speech, but is also burdensome to others, since he is deaf to the moderate mirth of others. Consequently they are vicious, and are said to be boorish or rude, as the Philosopher states (Ethic. iv, 8).
newadvent.org/summa/3168.htm
In other words, telling others to not have reasonable fun is sinful. Don’t do it.
On the subject of eutrapelia, St Thomas Aquinas has this to say:
In human affairs whatever is against reason is a sin. Now it is against reason for a man to be burdensome to others, by offering no pleasure to others, and by hindering their enjoyment. Wherefore Seneca [Martin of Braga, Formula Vitae Honestae: cap. De Continentia] says (De Quat. Virt., cap. De Continentia): “Let your conduct be guided by wisdom so that no one will think you rude, or despise you as a cad.” Now a man who is without mirth, not only is lacking in playful speech, but is also burdensome to others, since he is deaf to the moderate mirth of others. Consequently they are vicious, and are said to be boorish or rude, as the Philosopher states (Ethic. iv, 8).
newadvent.org/summa/3168.htm
In other words, telling others to not have reasonable fun is sinful. Don’t do it.
N
nuntym
Guest
+JMJ+
Here is my discussion on the correct relationship of rest, work, play, and leisure that I posted in another website:
Play and leisure might look like they are the same; the reason for this is that they have the same effect, which is joy. They however differ with the potential effect they have to a person.
If a joyful activity done for a significant amount of time and resources only stagnates or harms, then you can consider that to be “play”: crossword puzzles, video games, joking around with people, surfing the web, listening to music, watching videos, and similar activities.
However, if a joyful activity done for a significant amount of time and resources enriches someone’s life, then it can be called “leisure”: going to church, praying, reading great pieces of literature, spending time with family, learning new languages, playing a musical instrument, and so on.
So do these descriptions mean that play is inherently bad? Not at all. Play has an important role in our lives, so much so that St Thomas Aquinas thinks of those who do not play and who have no sense of humor as vicious, boorish, rude, and (ultimately) evil.
The role of play can be found in its effect: joy. Joy is the result of us getting what we want; that is, with joy, our hearts rest. That is why, for the ancients, play is the rest of heart and soul as repose is the rest of the physical body.
From this discussion we can already see the correct relationship of rest, play, work, and leisure in our lives. Leisure is the greatest thing we can do in our lives, not work, since it is leisure that enriches our lives. Work, rather, serves leisure, in that it gives us the resources to have leisure. Rest and play serve both work and leisure; they refresh our body, mind, and soul, and give us the energy we need to work and do leisure better.
Lastly, a playful activity must be enjoyed for the sake of itself or it will not give us joy, which is the whole point of playing. However, play presupposes work and looks forward to more work. Play is therefore not the cure for boredom, but rather leisure and work. Play for the sake of playing can kill.
Here is my discussion on the correct relationship of rest, work, play, and leisure that I posted in another website:
Play and leisure might look like they are the same; the reason for this is that they have the same effect, which is joy. They however differ with the potential effect they have to a person.
If a joyful activity done for a significant amount of time and resources only stagnates or harms, then you can consider that to be “play”: crossword puzzles, video games, joking around with people, surfing the web, listening to music, watching videos, and similar activities.
However, if a joyful activity done for a significant amount of time and resources enriches someone’s life, then it can be called “leisure”: going to church, praying, reading great pieces of literature, spending time with family, learning new languages, playing a musical instrument, and so on.
So do these descriptions mean that play is inherently bad? Not at all. Play has an important role in our lives, so much so that St Thomas Aquinas thinks of those who do not play and who have no sense of humor as vicious, boorish, rude, and (ultimately) evil.
The role of play can be found in its effect: joy. Joy is the result of us getting what we want; that is, with joy, our hearts rest. That is why, for the ancients, play is the rest of heart and soul as repose is the rest of the physical body.
From this discussion we can already see the correct relationship of rest, play, work, and leisure in our lives. Leisure is the greatest thing we can do in our lives, not work, since it is leisure that enriches our lives. Work, rather, serves leisure, in that it gives us the resources to have leisure. Rest and play serve both work and leisure; they refresh our body, mind, and soul, and give us the energy we need to work and do leisure better.
Lastly, a playful activity must be enjoyed for the sake of itself or it will not give us joy, which is the whole point of playing. However, play presupposes work and looks forward to more work. Play is therefore not the cure for boredom, but rather leisure and work. Play for the sake of playing can kill.
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