The gun thing - a question from a European

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What I am saying is that most citizens of this earth are subjects of their governments, and must live under that subjection, or leave, if they can. To most of the world, the US, by comparison, looks like heaven. An armed citizenry is the only thing keeping our current government from asserting total control of its citizens. This is simply human nature.
If your current government wanted to assert total control, they could use the weapons at their disposal, which are much more powerful than those at the citizens’ disposal. A-bombs, tanks, planes. But, hopefully, no one is actually suggesting an armed conflict between the government and the citizenry.
 
Being born and raised on the West Coast off Scotland I can honestly say the gun ownership in the USA is mind boggling to me.

Don’t get me wrong, there are folk who own guns here, but mainly farmers, folk who collect guns (often antique weapons) and then folk who shoot for sport (amongst others I am sure).

Yes we have had our own gun related tragedies, look at Dunblane, but that was 16 years ago (I was still at high school and remember it vividly) and immediately after the government tightened the laws for private gun ownership (don’t quote me but I think they made personal possession of automatic weapons of a certain type illegal). Since then I can think of one other occasion of someone basically running amok around a town with a shotgun randomly picking targets, and that wasn’t in Scotland it was south of the border.

In my humble opinion making guns so accessible is not good, especially if someone does have severe mental health problems and can grab a gun on the way out the front door and cause untold misery and suffering to many.

Ok they aren’t the only way someone can wreak mayhem, but the availability of them doesn’t help.
 
Being born and raised on the West Coast off Scotland I can honestly say the gun ownership in the USA is mind boggling to me.

Don’t get me wrong, there are folk who own guns here, but mainly farmers, folk who collect guns (often antique weapons) and then folk who shoot for sport (amongst others I am sure).

Yes we have had our own gun related tragedies, look at Dunblane, but that was 16 years ago (I was still at high school and remember it vividly) and immediately after the government tightened the laws for private gun ownership (don’t quote me but I think they made personal possession of automatic weapons of a certain type illegal). Since then I can think of one other occasion of someone basically running amok around a town with a shotgun randomly picking targets, and that wasn’t in Scotland it was south of the border.

In my humble opinion making guns so accessible is not good, especially if someone does have severe mental health problems and can grab a gun on the way out the front door and cause untold misery and suffering to many.

Ok they aren’t the only way someone can wreak mayhem, but the availability of them doesn’t help.
What you did after Dunblane is a great example of making a positive difference, in my opinion.
 
I really don’t understand the gun thing. Why would any civilian need weapons that kill dozens of people in a matter of seconds, anyway?
Hitler made sure he knew where all the guns were. First thing he did was take 'em all away.

Jewish parents could have used some submachine guns.
 
If your current government wanted to assert total control, they could use the weapons at their disposal, which are much more powerful than those at the citizens’ disposal. A-bombs, tanks, planes. But, hopefully, no one is actually suggesting an armed conflict between the government and the citizenry.
Neither do we purchase vehicle insurance because we intend to crash.
 
If your current government wanted to assert total control, they could use the weapons at their disposal, which are much more powerful than those at the citizens’ disposal. A-bombs, tanks, planes.
You’re right. Gun organizations like the NRA are very good in selling guns and ammunition, what else can one say. 300,000,000 and still counting.
 
I don’t understand. Are you being facetious or was this a genuine proposal? I, for one, can’t deduce anything from the photo.

I put the picture of the weapons his mother had in the home because the picture, quite frankly, shocks me. I’ve never seen weapons of this sort in my life and I hope I never will. I suppose not everyone will share that reaction.
I don’t know what are you trying to drive at here, in Switzerland in the middle of Europe ALL citizens are armed, they have at home FULLY automatic assault weapons and some that are trained to use it have .50mm Can Machine Guns, fully paid for by the Swiss government.

They are a guarantee that NO ONE will attempt to conquer that country.

In the US their Constitution guarantees their citizens the right to have weapons for the common defense of their land from menace foreign and domestic.

That is all there is to it.
The principle applied here is that all the citizens of a country should have the right and the duty to defend it.
Except in many countries arms ownership is restricted to the military and police and how many times have we seen the military and police used to control, repress and sometimes kill their own populations.
I would rather live as a FREE Swiss or American citizen given the choice. 👍
 
You’re right. Gun organizations like the NRA are very good in selling guns and ammunition, what else can one say. 300,000,000 and still counting.
Uhmm I believe you are grossly mistaken, the NRA does not sell neither guns nor ammunition.

It is a CLUB that people that like guns for recreational (hunting, competition, etc) join.
The NRA represents gun owners like other associations represent their member’s interests with the US government legislative branches.
 
I know it is difficult for our European friends to understand the culture of America. If you read our Constitution, that might help. Better yet, read the Federalist Papers which will give you a better idea of how our Constitution was formed and why we think differently about guns and other things.
 
I don’t know what are you trying to drive at here, in Switzerland in the middle of Europe ALL citizens are armed, they have at home FULLY automatic assault weapons and some that are trained to use it have .50mm Can Machine Guns, fully paid for by the Swiss government.
This is not quite true. All the Swiss are treated as soldiers and have to undergo military training and are assigned weapons while they serve - from ages 20 to 30, then they have to return them (or file to register, in which case the automatic function is removed) - and they receive no ammo to be kept at home. Ammo can only be used in practice ranges. In some cantons, the guns are kept in depots, not homes.

There’s not much “free” about it.

And Switzerland is certainly different from most European countries in many respects.
 
Uhmm I believe you are grossly mistaken, the NRA does not sell neither guns nor ammunition.

It is a CLUB that people that like guns for recreational (hunting, competition, etc) join.
The NRA represents gun owners like other associations represent their member’s interests with the US government legislative branches.
Ignore him. He’s been repeating that same post on any thread that he can. I’m sure if someone started a thread about water guns he’d figure out a rationale for posting it there as well.
 
The government CANNOT infring on the right of it’s citizens to be able to own and bear arms. Since this right ensures that no government will become oppressive like the king George of England had become.

The framers of the US Constitution envisioned that without checks even a local government could acrue power onto itself and become the same as what they were fighting against (The English).
The framers of the US Constitution never envisioned what we saw in this nation over a week ago. We use to have drills for tornados’…now children have drills for lock down for bomb threats. Now this. Gun liberties have gone too far…if we live by the sword, we will surely die by the sword.

If you hunt…eat what you kill.

Our children are not for sport.

Make all assault rifles illegal.

NO ONE should own a gun without psychiatric clearance.

STRICT gun measures must be taken.

The constitution first and foremost must abide by the rule of all persons’ right to life, libery and the pursuit of happiness.

I would say these 20 children had their right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness…infringed upon.

Wouldn’t you?
 
The government CANNOT infring on the right of it’s citizens to be able to own and bear arms. Since this right ensures that no government will become oppressive like the king George of England had become.

The framers of the US Constitution envisioned that without checks even a local government could acrue power onto itself and become the same as what they were fighting against (The English).
You know what: I bet if you actually analyzed it a case could be made that your current government is more “oppressive” than King George.
 
I don’t know what are you trying to drive at here, in Switzerland in the middle of Europe ALL citizens are armed, they have at home FULLY automatic assault weapons and some that are trained to use it have .50mm Can Machine Guns, fully paid for by the Swiss government.

They are a guarantee that NO ONE will attempt to conquer that country.

In the US their Constitution guarantees their citizens the right to have weapons for the common defense of their land from menace foreign and domestic.

That is all there is to it.
The principle applied here is that all the citizens of a country should have the right and the duty to defend it.
Except in many countries arms ownership is restricted to the military and police and how many times have we seen the military and police used to control, repress and sometimes kill their own populations.
I would rather live as a FREE Swiss or American citizen given the choice. 👍
Maybe - but I bet they don’t have the ammo, do they. Because that’s at the depot/armoury.
 
In America, the argument you’ll usually run up against is the slippery slope. Take away the assault rifles, next it will be semi-automatic handguns, then shotguns, then eventually all firearms entirely. And then how will we defend ourselves against the government when it tries to impose a martial law dictatorship?
Too many nations to count have banned or partially banned assault rifles and similar weapons without even nearly sliding down that slope to total bans on guns or martial law.
And, here is a Catholic Bishop explaining that such will not solve the problem. The problem is that God has been expelled from our schools and society, allowing the devil free reign. isthmuscatholic.org/resources/media/448

Guns were written into the DNA of the United States to provide a means of opposing an oppressive government - such as that of King George III which necessitated the formation of the United States.

That such incidents happen points to an abject failure of government to control the violent in society. Connecticut had rejected a mental health law update in July, as it would infringe upon the rights of the violent. What rights?

Are we defining freedom by the lowest common denominator? It is lamentable that the incident occurred at all. It is more lamentable that government failed miserably in dealing with a violent young man before this all happened.
I wonder what that little dust-up that we had (1861-1865)? I think it was called the Civil War. :D:confused:
And of course in that ‘little dust up’ the horrendously oppressed (by which I presume you mean the Confederates - I doubt the Union troops thought they were being oppressed by the US government) had a mighty triumph and gave that tyrant Abe Lincoln whatfor to the extent that they are still free of the shackles of Washington DC today?

Uh … Except they didn’t and they aren’t 🤷
 
If your current government wanted to assert total control, they could use the weapons at their disposal, which are much more powerful than those at the citizens’ disposal. A-bombs, tanks, planes. But, hopefully, no one is actually suggesting an armed conflict between the government and the citizenry.
Well, they sent armed military to a college campus and shot 4 students. Violent clashes between the citizens and the government are part of our culture. The students did not slink away and think, “Oh no! We must do as we are told!” They rioted and trashed a whole town.

Would they use “A-bombs?” Not unless they want to be invaded by a bunch of countries for breaking a nuclear arms treaty and contaminate the country they want to control.

Tanks? Maybe. Pretty sure posse comitatus has a way of dealing with them. Planes? Citizens fly, too. There are more of us than there are of them. It’s a stand-off. So far. Mostly it works because they are all busy fighting with each other to get elected and no one hangs around long enough to get a foothold.

Of course, they are making in-roads. But power always underestimates the strength of the oppressed. We are so arrogant as to think we have the right to freedom. We even think you do. It’s built into the American psyche to both kill for freedom and die for it.

What would you do for your freedom? Or ours?
 
So, in effect, the government has to allow the people to be able to defend themselves against said government?

The violently mentally ill certainly need to be controlled, I’m with you on that. But if there are no guns all around the place, the best they can get is a knife or a baseball bat. And then they can be overpowered by brooms.
From the way you write, you possibly live in any one of a number of European cities. In the UK and many of the countries on the Continent, the Police have far more control over the populace than any Americans would ever tolerate. As an example, the UK and many of the European countries have TV surveilance cameras for pedestrians, whereas, in the US we have them in a few cities for automobile traffic violations only-and even these are being protested in our courts. In addition, European Governmental statistics about violent crime, such as assaults, that are made public cannot be trusted because they are often “cooked” so as not to alarm the public.
However, it is well known that in the UK, after Parliment effectively disarmed the public and took away their right of self defense, that violent crime soared against individuals.
That is what happens when only the police and criminals have firearms. We have proof of that in the US in places like NYC, Chicago, parts of Los Angeles, Washington, DC, and Philadelphia. Where the authorities have an almost British attitude towards gun control-despite our 2nd Amendment.
You have obviously never lived in a large violent city. Such is the case in parts of New York City, Chicago, Oakland, CA and parts of Los Angeles. In many of these places one is foolish not to be armed in ones house.
However, for all the blather against firearms, they are not the cause of most of the deaths in the US. According to the Federal Government the following are the causes of un-natural deaths:
Tobacco use: 529,000
Medical Errors: 195,000
Unintentional injuries: 118,021
Alcohol Abuse: 107,400
Motor Vehicle Accidents: 34,485
Unintentional Poisoning: 31,758
Drug Abuse: 25,500
Unintentional Falls 24,792
*Non Firearm Homicides: 16 799
Firearm Homicides 11,493
*According to the FBI, the #1 weapon used in violent crimes is a baseball bat.
WHY is there NO outcry to RESTRICT baseball bat ownership?
(Maybe because so many law-abiding citizens enjoy them safely, for sport? Hmmm…)
 
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