"The Hidden Exodus" - Do Catholic Churches Need More Bible?

[Dave_Noonan]

I agree with this paragraph of yours, except for the part after the hyphen. I question how it would challenge tradition?

Alright, how about John Henry Newman? He was an Anglican academic at Oxford, and he wanted to prove that the Catholic Church was not the Church established by Christ. He found it impossible to argue for that, and converted.

Phil

I think you’re confusing Bible scholars and theologians.

 

[ESMDHokie77]

I think you’re confusing Bible scholars and theologians.

That’s fine… I suppose i’ve come to the point where part of the discussion is over my head. But I’ll try to keep the distinction for future.

 

[TrueLight]

Hi and Welcome True Light!!! I seem to run into your posts a lot over in the trad catholics forum!

Yeah,sometimes I think I hang too much on this forum, but hey, I’m learning, so that can’t be bad.

Protestants go to Sunday services to be taught the Bible by their pastor. Catholics are expected to learn on their own and go to Sunday mass to worship God. That’s a big difference and an important point when comparing the Mass to Sunday worship and a Protestant church.

I’m beginning to understand that, but then where is the opportunity as a community to really delve into the bible aside from at bible studies that the majority of Catholics don’t or cannot attend? And not just the bible, but the Catechism.

I miss Fr. Corapi’s “Catechism of the Catholic Church” series where he really made the catechism and the Word of God come alive.

If Catholics find Protestant congregationa that offer them that kind of teaching, won’t it be like the proverbial dangling carrot?

 

[Revert_43]

Yeah,sometimes I think I hang too much on this forum, but hey, I’m learning, so that can’t be bad.

Protestants go to Sunday services to be taught the Bible by their pastor. Catholics are expected to learn on their own and go to Sunday mass to worship God. That’s a big difference and an important point when comparing the Mass to Sunday worship and a Protestant church.

I’m beginning to understand that, but then where is the opportunity as a community to really delve into the bible aside from at bible studies that the majority of Catholics don’t or cannot attend? And not just the bible, but the Catechism.

I miss Fr. Corapi’s “Catechism of the Catholic Church” series where he really made the catechism and the Word of God come alive.

If Catholics find Protestant congregationa that offer them that kind of teaching, won’t it be like the proverbial dangling carrot?

Well, over the last few years the Archdiocese of Boston has been offering different Bible studies for just this reason. Lenten Longings was one, Next Lent there’s another Why Catholic? There are also 3rd orders where folks can learn more, some of the third orders require a person to be a Catholic, others don’t. My point, if you really really really want to join a group and learn you can find one.

Benedictine Oblates, Dominican Laity, Confraternity of Penitents, Holy Name Society, etc etc. There are options, keep hanging out here and learning.

 

[JamestheOlder]

First off, I wasn’t aware that this exodus was hidden; I was well aware of the fact that Catholicism has the worst net conversion ratio of any major religious group in America. And that on a global scale, it’s the only one of the six mega-blocks that has negative net conversion numbers.
Please reference your statistics. The Catholic Church is growing faster than even the Southern Baptists (in second place) according to easily available statistics from a non-Catholic source on the Internet.

Second, I’ve looked at a few of the studies on why people leave Catholciism, and no single reason or group of reasons ever stuck out to me. Even when you’re looking at a pretty long and detailed list of option, the “Other” category tends to be in the top two or three vote-getters. And while it might be encouraging to know that certain worrisome events or factors aren’t individually responsible for as much damage as one might fear, it kind of adds up to something a little more discouraging- there is no single thing that you can focus on in order to fix the problem. It’s got to be several things at once.
That may, or may not, be true. The main reasons why Catholics leave the Church is (1) lack of catechesis (including Bible study…and that is mostly an individual decision), and, due to that lack of catechesis, a misunderstanding of Catholic teaching/along with an idea they don’t agree with that “teaching”. In my ancient existence, exposed to people in perhaps 200 parishes, I have NEVER heard that someone left the Church because of lack of Biblical teaching…of course, that is only anecdotal evidence.

Yes, in the long run. Provided that Church leaders can succeed in demonstrating that various aspects of Church teaching, properly explained, actually do harmonize with Scripture. That can be a tough sell, though. In the short term, I think that could lead to a certain degree of trading quantity for quality. In the long term, though, quality does lead to more effective ministry and cultural/community impact.
Tough sell? That is what is needed. Better the quality of Catholic is there, rather than shoot for “numbers”.

Most definitely. They should emphasize Scripture as the highest authority and everything else as, at best, second in authority to that.
Baloney. One point made by most knowlegeable Scripture scholars is that the Church existed for 300 to 400 years without a defined canon of Scripture; sola scriptura has been discredited so often (Hahn, Cavins, etc., etc.) that I’m surprised you brought it up.
Realistically, though, it would be nice if Catholics started treating Scripture like a self-interpreting (Ha!) document. They already do that with the Catechism (not the folks I know), but they currently don’t do it with Scripture. That’s definitely not right.

Tradition (capital “T”) plus Scripture have always been the way of the Catholic Church. Somehow, most practicing Catholics prefer it that way…the way Christ designed it.

 

[MarkInOregon]

Hi there,
Another poster from last month mentioned this article, which I read and found very interesting. Apologies if this is not the best forum to discuss… I’m new and learning the ropes a bit.

Here’s a link to the article:
ncronline.org/news/hidden-exodus-catholics-becoming-protestants

The article attempts to look at data regarding departures from the RCC towards either evangelical churches or mainline Protestant churches (i.e. Episcopal/Lutheran/Methodist,etc).

It seems the underlying theme of departures is directly relevant NOT to social beliefs of the RCC, but a lack of Biblical focus and a lack of an engaging worship service:

As a non-Catholic, I can agree with this sentiment, but I’d like to hear the opinions of you folks on this topic.

Would it HELP the Roman Catholic Church to increase time spent on scripture interpretation at mass?

Do you AGREE with the article’s author that the Church needs to emphasize SCRIPTURE even above the Catechism?

Thanks all!

I think it is a “cultural” problem–not a biblical or mass problem. We all often hear how boring the mass is. I always wonder if they are attending the same mass that I am. I am not sure it is a mass problem–I think it is the attendees problem. We get out of mass what we put into it.

I can find beauty and engagement in even the most poorly said mass–I am always fed at mass. I worship with my brothers and sisters in the faith, I ask for forgivness for my sins, I hear the scriptures proclaimed, I sing the Psalms, I hear a homily–where if I listen and don’t critique I can usually pick out at least one thing to use, I confess what I believe, I participate in prayers of thanksgiving, I recieve Christ in the Eucharist (as he commanded) and I am dismissed to love and serve the Lord. How can I be bored at this–especially when our Lord comes and gives himself to us?

If there is a problem --it is not with the mass–but with the attendee. Today church going americans expect to be entertained at their church rather than to worship God. I go to mass to worship God–not to be entertained and dazzled by a great band, a charasmatic speaker and a captivating multi-media show. I go to worship not to be entertained. That is the crux of the problem–most want to be entertained–it’s the society we live in–they don’t want to worship–they don’t want to seek forgivness–they don’t want to take up their cross and follow Christ–they want to be entertained. If that’s the standard well it no wonder the mass isn’t engaging to them. They probably would have left the last supper early to catch the game too.

If truth be told–most catholics leaving the Church do so over disagreement with authority (in america and indeed the west in general we like to be our own authority) and Church teaching–“how dare the Church tell me it’s a sin to use birth control” or whatever. It’s just easier to blame it on a lie such as the Church isn’t “Biblical” and besides boy that other church is fun–I am entertained when I go there.

We are continually exhorted to read the Bible as Catholics, we have tons of resources available–the problem is most who identify themselves as Catholic attend mass sporatically, and aren’t listening or heeding the call.

I think that often we compare luke warm, disgruntled Catholics–who have refused to study their faith and leave the Church to the on-fire active protestants. We compare apples to oranges. The Catholic Church contains everyone.

Well thats enough said. Thats my two cents.

Peace,
Mark in Oregon

 

[Saintlucy]

I think it is a “cultural” problem–not a biblical or mass problem. We all often hear how boring the mass is. I always wonder if they are attending the same mass that I am. I am not sure it is a mass problem–I think it is the attendees problem. We get out of mass what we put into it.

I can find beauty and engagement in even the most poorly said mass–I am always fed at mass. I worship with my brothers and sisters in the faith, I ask for forgivness for my sins, I hear the scriptures proclaimed, I sing the Psalms, I hear a homily–where if I listen and don’t critique I can usually pick out at least one thing to use, I confess what I believe, I participate in prayers of thanksgiving, I recieve Christ in the Eucharist (as he commanded) and I am dismissed to love and serve the Lord. How can I be bored at this–especially when our Lord comes and gives himself to us?

If there is a problem --it is not with the mass–but with the attendee. Today church going americans expect to be entertained at their church rather than to worship God. I go to mass to worship God–not to be entertained and dazzled by a great band, a charasmatic speaker and a captivating multi-media show. I go to worship not to be entertained. That is the crux of the problem–most want to be entertained–it’s the society we live in–they don’t want to worship–they don’t want to seek forgivness–they don’t want to take up their cross and follow Christ–they want to be entertained. If that’s the standard well it no wonder the mass isn’t engaging to them. They probably would have left the last supper early to catch the game too.

If truth be told–most catholics leaving the Church do so over disagreement with authority (in america and indeed the west in general we like to be our own authority) and Church teaching–“how dare the Church tell me it’s a sin to use birth control” or whatever. It’s just easier to blame it on a lie such as the Church isn’t “Biblical” and besides boy that other church is fun–I am entertained when I go there.

We are continually exhorted to read the Bible as Catholics, we have tons of resources available–the problem is most who identify themselves as Catholic attend mass sporatically, and aren’t listening or heeding the call.

I think that often we compare luke warm, disgruntled Catholics–who have refused to study their faith and leave the Church to the on-fire active protestants. We compare apples to oranges. The Catholic Church contains everyone.

Well thats enough said. Thats my two cents.

Peace,
Mark in Oregon

I wish I’d said that!

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Hi there,
Another poster from last month mentioned this article, which I read and found very interesting. Apologies if this is not the best forum to discuss… I’m new and learning the ropes a bit.

Here’s a link to the article:
ncronline.org/news/hidden-exodus-catholics-becoming-protestants

The article attempts to look at data regarding departures from the RCC towards either evangelical churches or mainline Protestant churches (i.e. Episcopal/Lutheran/Methodist,etc).

It seems the underlying theme of departures is directly relevant NOT to social beliefs of the RCC, but a lack of Biblical focus and a lack of an engaging worship service:

As a non-Catholic, I can agree with this sentiment, but I’d like to hear the opinions of you folks on this topic.

Would it HELP the Roman Catholic Church to increase time spent on scripture interpretation at mass?

Do you AGREE with the article’s author that the Church needs to emphasize SCRIPTURE even above the Catechism?

Thanks all!

I disagree. I think better adult education in the doctrines of the faith - not just “what we believe” but the REASONS behind the beliefs - are essential. A good Catholic understanding of the mass would stop cold anyone that was leaving for “something better” because, properly understood, there can be no better worship service than the mass.

As one who has spent the past several years delving into the Scriptural, Traditional and historical bases for the Catholic Doctrine of the the Real Presence in the Eucharist, I can’t imagine anyone saying, “Yeah, I left the mass at which I was receiving the body, blood, soul and divinity of the Son of the Living God… because I wanted better music and Starbucks coffee after worship service.” God help us if that’s *really *how shallow we’ve become as a people.

And BTW - there’s more scripture in the Catholic Mass than any three non-Catholic services. In every mass there are always three full readings from scripture (usually a reading from the OT, the NT epistles, and a Gospel reading. There is always a psalm that is sung, chanted, or spoken aloud, and there are beautiful and ancient christian prayers that are soaked in biblical language. So, if someone really says they are leaving the Church for “more bible reading” they just don’t understand what they’re really leaving. And there is no dichotomy between Catechism and Scripture. The two are consistent and both assist in teaching the fullness of the faith.

Yes, I think it’s just that simple. But of course, this is all just my :twocents:

Peace,
Robert

 

[jwinch2]

I disagree. I think better adult education in the doctrines of the faith - not just “what we believe” but the REASONS behind the beliefs - are essential. A good Catholic understanding of the mass would stop cold anyone that was leaving for “something better” because, properly understood, there can be no better worship service than the mass.

As one who has spent the past several years delving into the Scriptural, Traditional and historical bases for the Catholic Doctrine of the the Real Presence in the Eucharist, I can’t imagine anyone saying, “Yeah, I left the mass at which I was receiving the body, blood, soul and divinity of the Son of the Living God… because I wanted better music and Starbucks coffee after worship service.” God help us if that’s *really *how shallow we’ve become as a people.

And BTW - there’s more scripture in the Catholic Mass than any three non-Catholic services. In every mass there are always three full readings from scripture (usually a reading from the OT, the NT epistles, and a Gospel reading. There is always a psalm that is sung, chanted, or spoken aloud, and there are beautiful and ancient christian prayers that are soaked in biblical language. So, if someone really says they are leaving the Church for “more bible reading” they just don’t understand what they’re really leaving. And there is no dichotomy between Catechism and Scripture. The two are consistent and both assist in teaching the fullness of the faith.

Yes, I think it’s just that simple. But of course, this is all just my :twocents:

Peace,
Robert

I agree with your ideas solutions but I think that can be enhanced by better Bible training for Catholics in general. If the Bible is taught hand in hand with Sacred Tradition and related to the Mass and Magesterial Teaching I think you will have far fewer people who don’t understand the Biblical underpinnings of the Mass and the reasons behind Church teaching.

Thoughts?

 

[dcointin]

I once attended a saturday night service at Willow Creek, the famous non-denominational church in Chicago. There was no scripture readings, the sermon was about Martin Luther King and the importance of loving each other, and the name “God” or “Christ” were used just twice. If my experience was indicative of their services as a whole, then I have a very hard time believing that people are joining it for its emphasis on scripture.

 

[hn160]

Yeah,sometimes I think I hang too much on this forum, but hey, I’m learning, so that can’t be bad.

Protestants go to Sunday services to be taught the Bible by their pastor. Catholics are expected to learn on their own and go to Sunday mass to worship God. That’s a big difference and an important point when comparing the Mass to Sunday worship and a Protestant church.

I’m beginning to understand that, but then where is the opportunity as a community to really delve into the bible aside from at bible studies that the majority of Catholics don’t or cannot attend? And not just the bible, but the Catechism.

I miss Fr. Corapi’s “Catechism of the Catholic Church” series where he really made the catechism and the Word of God come alive.

If Catholics find Protestant congregationa that offer them that kind of teaching, won’t it be like the proverbial dangling carrot?

I take it that you have never been to a Lutheran Divine Service ( Mass ), our service is similar to the Catholic Mass without the priest offering the sacrifice. God comes to serve us in Confession and Absolution, Word read and preached, and in the Sacrament of the Altar. Two of the three Lutheran Sacraments are always present in the Lutheran Divine Service.

 

[MarkInOregon]

I’m beginning to understand that, but then where is the opportunity as a community to really delve into the bible aside from at bible studies that the majority of Catholics don’t or cannot attend? And not just the bible, but the Catechism.

.

Aside from Bible study? Where else should one study the Bible as a community? The Mass is a divine liturgy–a glimpse of heaven while we are on earth. The mass is what has been done since the time of the apostles–I am guessing that in the time of the apostles the readings were longer (at least thats the feeling I get from the writings of Justin Martyr) and the homily was probably a little longer–but it is unclear to me that delving into the readings in the way you suggest is what was done (but then I wasn’t there). We are following the model given to us by the apostles and doing what Christ commanded us to do.

At our Church we have Bible study available on two different days–a week day morning and on Sunday evening. I would guess that very few parishioners can’t make one of those two times–yet the vast majority do not attend. One can only assume it is because they don’t want to and that it’s not as important to them as Sunday night football or Desparate Housewives. I bet one can say that the vast majority don’t attend mass each and every Sunday also. Why don’t they attend every Sunday? Why do they check their watches if the mass runs over an hour? Why isn’t mass a priority for them? Why isn’t studying the Bible and their faith a priority? This is what puzzels me. People spend more time studying their fantasy football picks or movie stars than they do the Bible and their faith and getting to heaven. And lest anyone think I am casting stones–it should be noted that I spend far too much time mindlessly watching tv–and not nearly enough time in prayer and corporal works of mercy. I confess to almighty God and to you my brothers and sisters…

I guess what I am saying boils down to is this: that the opportunity is often there and the majority of Catholics simply don’t take advantage of that opportunity and I am not sure that spending more time delving in during the homily at mass–is going to make a difference–as the majority of Catholics don’t take advantage of Sunday mass attendence either. What is the old saying-you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink? And as one who has a priest who at times delves deeply – one often hears parishioners complain that the homily is over their head. It’s a no win job for the priest. They need to strike that hard to acheive balance not to simple, not to hard, but just right. One would like to say that you could run a cycle–the first time through the reading start “easy” explain the reading and if possible how it relates to Church teaching, the next time–go deeper and the next time deeper still. Repeat. That should cover everyone. Any way I suggest we all pray for our priests more and complain about them less (not that anyone in this discussion was doing that–just a general comment).

God Bless,
Mark

 

[TrueLight]

Aside from Bible study? Where else should one study the Bible as a community? The Mass is a divine liturgy–a glimpse of heaven while we are on earth. The mass is what has been done since the time of the apostles–I am guessing that in the time of the apostles the readings were longer (at least thats the feeling I get from the writings of Justin Martyr) and the homily was probably a little longer–but it is unclear to me that delving into the readings in the way you suggest is what was done (but then I wasn’t there). We are following the model given to us by the apostles and doing what Christ commanded us to do.

Well Mark, thank you for the Justin Martyr reference. I did a little Wikipedia browsing and found this:

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons.

It really is very close to the modern mass indeed.

But look at the part that says the President verbally instructs and exhorts. In my opinion this is the part that can be expounded on and this is the part that can include more biblical cross referencing.

I’m pretty sure the 12 Apostles were not shy about teaching the Gospel and also using whatever texts existed at the time.

Like it or not, for some people Mass, which they attend so as not to commit mortal sin, is their only opportunity to learn about their faith.

 

[The_GreyPilgrim]

Aside from the Mass being soaked in scripture(of which I am also a regular lector), I also help facilitate the Bible Study at my parish church.

Many times in the fall when Bible study starts up we gte an inrush of people from CHRP retreats who have been renewed in their faith and want to know the Bible more deeply. You get others who are older and who really haven’t studied the Bible much. You might also get some recent converts.

There’s no shortage of announcements in the bulletin and before Mass about the BS. But we struggle to get more than 25 enrollees per session for Thurs night(there are more people, mostly seniors, who sign up for Friday morning).

We usually get between 18-24 sign ups at the beginning of the session, but about halfway through attendence drops by half(this happens for various reasons, mostly time).

Out Bible studies are structured according to Catholic Tradition and the standard interpretive methods therein. We just got done with Jeff Cavins “Great Adventure” series where I learned a lot.

The point I guess I’m trying to make is that you can’t force people to be interested in the Bible. I pray all the time that God will send that spark to my brothers and sisters to want to know more about Him through the BIble.

It also doesn’t help that Catholic Schools in the 70’s and 80’s taught so many bad things to people that were utterly at odds with the Faith. I’m still fighting misunderstandings, even with the lady who is our BS director.

 

[Saintlucy]

Hymns sung at Mass always have to relate the scripture readings of the day. So there’s a bit more bible there too!

 

[elvisman]

Well Mark, thank you for the Justin Martyr reference. I did a little Wikipedia browsing and found this:
It really is very close to the modern mass indeed.

But look at the part that says the President verbally instructs and exhorts. In my opinion this is the part that can be expounded on and this is the part that can include more biblical cross referencing.

I’m pretty sure the 12 Apostles were not shy about teaching the Gospel and also using whatever texts existed at the time.

Like it or not, for some people Mass, which they attend so as not to commit mortal sin, is their only opportunity to learn about their faith.

**I don’t think that this is a good representation of the Mass. There is nothing more Biblical than the Mass. **

First of all, in a 3 year liturgical cycle, you will hear virtually the ENTIRE Bible being recited at mass.

The doctrines of the Church as they pertain to the Mass (Acts 2:46-47, 1 Cor. 10:16), the Eucharist (Matt. 26:26-29, Mark 14:22-25, Luke 22:19-20, John 6:29-71, 1 Cor. 11:27-30)**, *Confession *(Matt. 16:15, Matt. 18: 15-18, John 20:21-23, 2:Cor. 2:10, 5:18-20), *Baptism *(Ezk. 36:25-28, Acts 2:37-38, Acts 10:48, John 3:5, Mark 16:16, Eph. 4:5) and so on, are well-documented in the Bible.

The Book of Revelation is filled with similarities between Mass on earth and that of the heavenly liturgy. Here is a list of some of them:
**
Rev. 1:10 speaks of the heavenly liturgy being celebrated on the Lord’s day. Catholics are obliged to attend mass on Sunday (the Lord’s Day).
Rev. 1:12, 2:5** speaks of lampstands or “Menorahs” in heaven. They are also used in the mass here on earth.**
Rev. 1:13, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 15:6, 19:13-14** tells us about priests wearing special vestments in the heavenly liturgy. Here on earth, Catholic priests also wear liturgical vestments when celebrating Mass.**
Rev. 2:5, 16, 21; 3:3; 16:11** speaks of a penitential rite going on in heaven – just like the in the Mass on earth. **
Rev. 15:3-4** speaks of the* “Gloria*” being recited in heaven. You will hear this recited during the Mass on earth.**
Rev. 4:4, 5:14; 11:16, 14:3, 19:4** mentions the priests in heaven. On earth, the priest offers Jesus’ eternal and ongoing sacrifice during the Mass.**
Rev. 5:8, 6:9-11, 8:3-4** speaks of the saints in heaven interceding on our behalf – just as they are petitioned in the Mass. **
Rev. 4:8** speaks of heaven’s un-ending hymn of praise to God,* “Holy, Holy, Holy*”. This very same prayer is recited in the Mass.**
Rev. 2:17** speaks of manna in heaven that is given to the faithful. Likewise, during the Mass, we receive the true manna - the Eucharist.**
Rev. 5:8, 8:3-4** speaks of incense being used in heaven which has been part of the celebration of the Mass from the beginning.**
Rev. 6:9** tells us about the martyrs under the heavenly altar which is mirrored by the Church’s tradition of having relics of saints under the altars of our churches on earth. **
Rev. 5** speaks of the Lamb (describing Jesus). During the Mass, Jesus is described as the Lamb of God during the Liturgy of the Eucharist. **
Rev. 8:3, 11:1, 14:18, 16:7** speaks of an altar being present in heaven – which illustrates that an eternal sacrifice is being offered. That sacrifice is the very same one being offered on the altar during the Mass.**
Rev. 14:4** speaks of those who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They are celibate. In the same way, our celibate priests and religious here on earth follow the Lord.**
Rev. 15:7, 16:1-4, 8, 10, 12, 17; 21:9** speaks of chalices (bowls) being used in the heavenly liturgy. Likewise, chalices are used to offer our Lord’s eternal sacrifice on earth during the Mass.**
Rev. 17, 19:9** speaks of consuming the Lamb at the marriage celebration in Heaven. This is done at every single Mass on earth during Communion. **
Rev. 19:1, 3, 4, 6** speaks of the “Alleluia” being recited in heaven. You will find this recited at every Mass here on earth.**
Finally, in Rev. 5:14; 7:12; 19:4, we read that heaven’s concluding liturgical prayer “Amen” is the very one that is recited at the end of the Mass on earth.

 

[Contarini]

Aside from Bible study? Where else should one study the Bible as a community? The Mass is a divine liturgy–a glimpse of heaven while we are on earth. The mass is what has been done since the time of the apostles–I am guessing that in the time of the apostles the readings were longer (at least thats the feeling I get from the writings of Justin Martyr) and the homily was probably a little longer–but it is unclear to me that delving into the readings in the way you suggest is what was done (but then I wasn’t there).

St. Justin says that the Scriptures are read “as time allows.” I get the impression that they had a certain amount of time for it and just read until that time was up. And we do in fact have evidence of “delving into the readings”–we have a lot of sermons, mostly from the fourth century and later (though we have a lot of homilies from Origen). Sermons were very long, and they were deeply exegetical, examining every nuance of the text and applying it to people’s lives. Read some John Chrysostom. Then there were the lengthy catechetical lectures that people had to go to before they were even baptized (we have quite a lot of these too–I think Origen’s homilies may have been delivered to catechumens originally).

The early Church’s liturgy was an opportunity to study Scripture as well as being all the things you describe. The problem is that by our standards it was very long–I think probably it was about 3 hours. The Catholic Church might actually stand a chance of doing this, but it would cause a lot of grumbling.

And as one who has a priest who at times delves deeply – one often hears parishioners complain that the homily is over their head. It’s a no win job for the priest.

Well, the priest isn’t in a popularity contest, is he? My (Episcopal) priest gets those complaints too. Certainly the ideal is to combine substance and clarity, but I think Catholic priests need to work harder on the former than on the latter.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

I once attended a saturday night service at Willow Creek, the famous non-denominational church in Chicago. There was no scripture readings, the sermon was about Martin Luther King and the importance of loving each other, and the name “God” or “Christ” were used just twice. If my experience was indicative of their services as a whole, then I have a very hard time believing that people are joining it for its emphasis on scripture.

At those kinds of churches the substantive Bible study doesn’t take place in the main weekly service, but in small group meetings. This is a break from traditional Protestantism (radical break from the teachings of the Reformers, but the way was paved by 19th-century revivalism), and is controversial. (I think it’s just plain wrong!)

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

The Catholic sermons are shorter but more to the point and contain more “meat on the bone”…the non Catholic sermons are longer but that’s mostly because they are peppered with jokes, comedy, and pleas for money.

I have not found this to be the case. I’ve heard a Reformed Baptist pastor give an in-depth theological analysis of a Biblical passage for 45 minutes. And I have not generally found Catholic sermons to be particularly substantive. I have found Catholic priests using jokes and anecdotes (usually poor ones) when they didn’t have a lot of time to give a substantive sermon in the first place.

I DO think it might be an improvement if Catholics brought Bibles to Church and if the priest actually cited chapter/verse before beginning the reading.

Why not have pew Bibles?

 

[jwinch2]

Why not have pew Bibles?

Because the Bible is already in the Missal, just organized to the Liturgical calender. The chapter and versus the readings are taken from are right there in the Missal. How hard can it be to figure out where the text is coming from?