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patricius79
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You said that Luther said that he and the devil (the deciever) agreed about justification by faith alone, etc, right?
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Therefore I cannot include him among the chief books, though I would not thereby prevent anyone from including or extolling him as he pleases, for there are otherwise many good sayings in him. Therefore I will not have him in my Bible to be numbered among the true chief books, though I would not thereby prevent anyone from including or extolling him as he pleases, for there are otherwise many good sayings in him. One man is no man in worldly things; how then, should this single man alone avail against Paul and all Scripture.
I know you want to slant this as claiming authority, but the fact is he is stating an opinion, which starts with praising the book.
I know you want to slant this as claiming authority, but the fact is he is stating an opinion, which starts with praising the book.
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JohnR77
Guest
I agree. We should let Martin Luther speak for himself.
See Quotes below.
Reformers or Revolutionaries?
By Steve Weidenkopf
September 26, 2017
Reformers or Revolutionaries?
October marks the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation. Secular and religious media will feature stories about the main leaders of the Protestant mov...
Also Steve Woods selection of quotes.
http://r.dads.org/nl/lmip/1izsr.htm...x=3nUa31zt0OHPcCZkRKWO6fvdk4nSBp_Gq7q6IxhYl2s
Download Free Book of
Luther’s Own Statements, highlighted by Steve Wood
http://dads.org/faith/luthers-own-statements/
You also might want to look at some of Martin Luther’s cartoon tracts.
In cartoon 4 “A Just reward for the Most Satanic Pope and His Cardinals” Luther depicts the hangman pulling out the Pope’s tongue.
“Were there temporal punishment here below, Pope and cardinals would be treated so.
His blasphemous tongue right well deserves What the painter for us here preserves.”
Dr. Martin Luther.
“The Pope, the Cardinals…ought to be taken and (as they are blasphemers) their tongue ought to be torn out through the back of their neck and nailed to the gallows…”
John
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
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Don_Ruggero
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As Catholics faithful to the Holy See, we recognise and use the titles that the Holy See bestowed upon Martin Luther from his 500th birthday through even to this recent anniversary: “Witness of Jesus Christ” and “Witness to the Gospel”.
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rcwitness
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Yet there is a very significant disunity, otherwise there would be Communion with His one Eucharist!R_H_Benson:
Nothing “fake” about the unity. It is from the Holy Spirit, as Saint John Paul II wrote in Ut Unum Sint of "the deep communion — linked to the baptismal character — which the Spirit fosters in spite of historical and canonical divisions among all th ebaptised – Catholic and non-Catholic alike.
As he went on to say, “This broadening of vocabulary is indicative of a significant change in attitudes. There is an increased awareness that we all belong to Christ.”
These Christians are NOT receiving the Body and Blood of our Lord, according to the Catholic faith!
If we “ALL” belong to Christ, why are we not “ALL” partaking of one Eucharistic celebration?
I realize there need to be steps taken towards this unity. And i also realize there is often (but certainly not always) no fault of some individuals raised into these separated communities for not being in Communion with Jesus’ Eucharist.
But how far can we really say non-Catholic Christians belong to Christ, if they are not receiving His broken body and shed blood at the one table???
For the Catholic Church to place such emphisis on Holy Communion, and even attributing Jesus’ Teaching about the Bread of Life in John 6, and then praise and affirm leaders who have created and maintained a Communion which is at odds with the Catholic celebration of our Lord’s Supper is lacking conviction.
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rcwitness
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Is Martin Luther a witness to the Lord’s Eucharist?
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rcwitness
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This is a genuinely good point! How can the Church be expected to praise a man (and a movement) which opposed the Roman See to the point of a separated and invalid celebration of the Lord’s Supper, while demanding that we submitt to hierarchy or be criticized as ignorant, rebellious, uncharitable, etc.Martin Luther didn’t listen to and follow his shepherds and he’s cool now. It’s all good
If some go as far as saying that Martin was a genuine witness to Jesus by opposing the Pope and establishing doctrines which the pontiff rejected, why should we have any confidence that the hierarchy is any different now?
What if, in another 500 years, the Church says “um, we should not have been praising Martin Luther and the Reformation. We have new insight and understanding, that he was not being a good witness to the profound principles of our Lord’s Supper.”???
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rcwitness
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You see, the very notion of praising Martin Luther encourages Christians to oppose the Roman See!
I could say “The council of Trent is a bunch of rubbish, and the men who participated are devils!” And if you criticize, i could just say, “Well, in 500 years the Church will praise me.”
I could say “The council of Trent is a bunch of rubbish, and the men who participated are devils!” And if you criticize, i could just say, “Well, in 500 years the Church will praise me.”
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Randolph
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I find it quite disturbing and outright despicable for those who spin the goal of Church in this Catholic-Lutheran dialogue—which is to seek the truth and ultimately to bring the Lutherans to embrace the truth of the Church.
Martin Luther was an unrepented heretic and an anti-Semite. He denounced the papacy, the Holy Orders, and some sacraments. Even though Popes John Paul and Benedict recognized that Luther loved the Gospels, they would never, never endorse his evil views. It’s safe to say these two great popes rejected them. Need it be said that Sola Scriptura is a heresy. Martin Luther wanted a revolution 500 years ago that seeks to destroy the Catholic Church. It is wrong and absolutely unacceptable.
It is important to be reminded of what some of what Luther did:
In his work “On the Jews and their lies” written in 1543: Luther said:
—to burn down Jewish synagogues and schools and warn people against them;
—to refuse to let Jews own houses among Christians;
for Jewish religious writings to be taken away;
for rabbis to be forbidden to preach;
—to offer no protection to Jews on highways;
for usury to be prohibited and for all silver and gold to be removed, put aside for safekeeping, and given back to Jews who truly convert; and
—to give young, strong Jews flail, axe, spade, and spindle, and let them earn.
He went on to call Jews: “full of the devil’s feces … which they wallow in like swine,” and the synagogue is an “incorrigible whore and an evil slut”. And much, much, much more… There is no question that Luther’s anti-semantic view was one of the root causes that led to the Holocaust.
So for those who spin to make Martin Luther some kind of a folk hero, please just stop!!! You are fooling nobody. You are at best being dishonest.
Martin Luther was an unrepented heretic and an anti-Semite. He denounced the papacy, the Holy Orders, and some sacraments. Even though Popes John Paul and Benedict recognized that Luther loved the Gospels, they would never, never endorse his evil views. It’s safe to say these two great popes rejected them. Need it be said that Sola Scriptura is a heresy. Martin Luther wanted a revolution 500 years ago that seeks to destroy the Catholic Church. It is wrong and absolutely unacceptable.
It is important to be reminded of what some of what Luther did:
In his work “On the Jews and their lies” written in 1543: Luther said:
—to burn down Jewish synagogues and schools and warn people against them;
—to refuse to let Jews own houses among Christians;
for Jewish religious writings to be taken away;
for rabbis to be forbidden to preach;
—to offer no protection to Jews on highways;
for usury to be prohibited and for all silver and gold to be removed, put aside for safekeeping, and given back to Jews who truly convert; and
—to give young, strong Jews flail, axe, spade, and spindle, and let them earn.
He went on to call Jews: “full of the devil’s feces … which they wallow in like swine,” and the synagogue is an “incorrigible whore and an evil slut”. And much, much, much more… There is no question that Luther’s anti-semantic view was one of the root causes that led to the Holocaust.
So for those who spin to make Martin Luther some kind of a folk hero, please just stop!!! You are fooling nobody. You are at best being dishonest.
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Don_Ruggero
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The Popes have quite explained that. The words are there for those who read them.
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Jaaye
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This link is telling the same “Luther-and the-devil-talk-about-doctrines-story” that O’Connor’s booklet does
The difference is that it is “relaying” the story interspersed with excerpted quotes from Luther vs. O’Connors booklet is directly quoting Luther, and the text remains as Luther wrote it, as HE relays the story … and it covers the back-and-forth dialogue of stopping private masses, the faith alone doctrine and not revering Mary and the Saints that you were asking about.
I’ve only been able to find a copy of the original text in German, which is not particularly helpful to this forum, but will continue to see if I can locate a full English translation. Due to the anniversary many German language texts previously not available are being made available and translated in other languages (but I still have to search for them in German!)
Below is the link again to O’Connors booklet I posted a week or more ago. The passages directly quoting Luther’s conversation with the Devil on these matters is contained on pgs 13-19 “Luther’s Own Statements Concerning His Teaching and Its Results”
The difference is that it is “relaying” the story interspersed with excerpted quotes from Luther vs. O’Connors booklet is directly quoting Luther, and the text remains as Luther wrote it, as HE relays the story … and it covers the back-and-forth dialogue of stopping private masses, the faith alone doctrine and not revering Mary and the Saints that you were asking about.
I’ve only been able to find a copy of the original text in German, which is not particularly helpful to this forum, but will continue to see if I can locate a full English translation. Due to the anniversary many German language texts previously not available are being made available and translated in other languages (but I still have to search for them in German!)
Below is the link again to O’Connors booklet I posted a week or more ago. The passages directly quoting Luther’s conversation with the Devil on these matters is contained on pgs 13-19 “Luther’s Own Statements Concerning His Teaching and Its Results”
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Jaaye
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Can you provide a link with that explanation? The Catholic Eucharist is quite different than the sacramental union of Luther. Waaay different. Having the benefit of reviewing the papal explanations that are meaningful to you would likely by helpful to me.
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Jaaye
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Not quite. Luther’s words … directly quoted from the original German texts…relay Luther’s thoughts. There is no “editing” ---- words have not been altered, changed or chopped out.l. the accompanying commentary and discussion is from a catholic perspective, for each to review and use or discard when forming their own conclusions.
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Don_Ruggero
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If you are American, I suggest you begin with Declaration on the Way
http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-te...upload/Declaration_on_the_Way-for-Website.pdf
It is well introduced by Dr. Susan Wood
https://www.osv.com/TheChurch/Article/TabId/563/ArtMID/13751/ArticleID/21014/‘Declaration-on-the-Way’-from-a-Catholic-Perspective.aspx
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Don_Ruggero
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You seem to need to re-read Church history on the place of antisemitism within Catholicism and its history.
You seen to need to confront the horror that is our legacy as Catholics. Nostra Aetate was a beginning – but it has born greater fruit in the decades since through our work in the Jewish-Catholic dialogue.
Pope Saint John Paul II said
…which is exactly what I did on that day in March 2000.
Every Catholic on this forum needs to do exactly that – it is not a matter of casting stones at others since we live in a glass house. It is owning, as Catholics, the evil…the horrors of the past perpetrated by Catholics. Again, as the Saint of God wrote,
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Don_Ruggero
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Don_Ruggero
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Of course he is.
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Jaaye
Guest
No question the fur was flying in all directions during the Reformation. The O’Connor booklet is from 1884 … some 380 years past the reformation period … that’s quite a distance. I consider the opportunity to see/hear Luther’s words in his own voice an opportunity… as I said each can use or discard the commentary as they see fit … it is Luther’s words and the access to them that is the jewel-in-the-crown (to me).
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Jaaye
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Thank you for the links. Well … there’s hope… one thing I noticed is the Lutheran church has moved significantly back towards a “Catholic perspective” [for lack of a better phrasing] since Martin Luther’s “Prelude on the Babylonian Captivity of the Church, 1520” – particularly on his own sticking points like Confession, Holy Orders, Confirmation, Marriage, Last Rites, Baptism and the Eucharist. So if the migration of thought continues … I hold out hope for a future reconciliation.
Of the 32 items in the declaration we agree on … most seem to be things like "we agree there is a sun in the sky and stars in the heavens sort of statements we agree on (yes, I made that up) – so yes they are printed up in a nice book, but they were not the sort of things that were deal-killer disagreements to begin with ?? (yes, we believe in God, in heaven, in the Trinity, etc.)
Of the 15 items of differences … we’re still pretty far apart … in the Eucharist, in the nature of sin, in the route to salvation, etc. so it’s up to us … we’ll see how it goes.
Of the 32 items in the declaration we agree on … most seem to be things like "we agree there is a sun in the sky and stars in the heavens sort of statements we agree on (yes, I made that up) – so yes they are printed up in a nice book, but they were not the sort of things that were deal-killer disagreements to begin with ?? (yes, we believe in God, in heaven, in the Trinity, etc.)
Of the 15 items of differences … we’re still pretty far apart … in the Eucharist, in the nature of sin, in the route to salvation, etc. so it’s up to us … we’ll see how it goes.
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