The historicity of the Church

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The CC doesn’t have the authority to define any doctrine not normed by scripture.
The CC, as I, and others, have already mentioned: has always used sacred Scripture, just as you do. Why should I trust your discernment of Sacred Scripture over the CCs discernment of sacred scripture?

Where does scripture explicitly or implicitly say that the CC doesn’t have the authority to define any doctrine not normed by scripture, not that they don’t use sacred scripture:

CCC - “Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant.”
 
Are you sure? Then name ONE Christian church with a larger NT canon?

I am still waiting for the verse:

Scripture is the highest authority.

You can forget about 2 Tim 3:16. That is the most twisted verse by so many non-Catholics.
All Christian churches agree on the NT canon, except the Catholic Church included Laodiceans in the canon for the NT in some editions of the Vulgate, it was finally removed to bring the Catholic Church into agreement with the rest of the Christian churches.
 
The CC, as I, and others, have already mentioned: has always used sacred Scripture, just as you do. Why should I trust your discernment of Sacred Scripture over the CCs discernment of sacred scripture?

Where does scripture explicitly or implicitly say that the CC doesn’t have the authority to define any doctrine not normed by scripture, not that they don’t use sacred scripture:

CCC - “Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant.”
The CC, as I, and others, have already mentioned: has always used sacred Scripture, just as you do. Why should I trust your discernment of Sacred Scripture over the CCs discernment of sacred scripture?
Don’t. Obey your churches teaching regarding sacred scripture. Your church teaches the word and administers the sacraments, its a fine and venerable tradition. And I wish you blessings in word and sacrament.
Where does scripture explicitly or implicitly say that the CC doesn’t have the authority to define any doctrine not normed by scripture, not that they don’t use sacred scripture:
1 Cor 4:6
 
James and all the apostles at the council used scripture to norm their doctrine. They were using Sola Scriptura.
That’s just plain silly…

There was no New Testament to follow from and they were breaking from the Old Testament and the influence of the Judaizers…

The first example of a Council being the final arbiter on matter of faith:

Acts 15:19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God,

Further:

Acts 15:27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves **will tell you the same things by word of mouth. **28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”

The farthest thing from SS = Word of Mouth.

Doctrine was taught - not written - by Jesus Christ to the Apostles and by the Apostles following the Great Commission to their disciples. Just like the Historical Church has done for centuries.
I agree. I hold the church to be a source of truth.
Not a source. The source of truth. The Church is the body of Christ, where Christ is the Head.
There have been over 40 errant councils in the history of the church. Even so, ecumenical councils have erred as well, such as Canon 28 of Chalcedon.
First of all. The men at Councils and the Church make fallible or infallible proclamations. They (Councils and the Church) cannot be fallible or infallible because they are not people.

If there is an error in one of the proclamations of a Council or the Church. That doesn’t mean that all the proclamations are in error. It is a fallacy to see it that way.

You were speaking in general and as such you would have to demonstrate that all their proclamations are in error. But I don’t think you meant it this way.
Fine. But Christians knew what were scriptures long before there was any council declaring them so. And even the Catholic Church have declared that ecumenical councils have erred, such as Canon 28 of Chalcedon, and when 3rd Constantinople declared Honorius a heretic, etc.
Christians had an idea. Clement I, Shepherd of Hermas, Didache, and others were also considered Scriptures. It wasn’t until the Church declared which ones that Christians knew the difference.
Because you are placing yourself as a higher authority than the Church.
I don’t believe that, and that’s a ridiculous charicature of my position.
I did not say you believe that. When a poster writes something and there is a winky face after the statement 😉 - it means the comment is not serious and with the intention of making light of the conversation.
Absolutely, in fact they got it wrong and declared some uninspired books to be inspired.
That is the opinion of some people. The Church has spoken on this matter.

Again the Historic Church is against you.
No. I am simply doing what Gregory of Nyssa advised, making scripture the rule and norm of every doctrine.
No, you are advocating for the doctrine of dissenters from the 16th century.
 
Scripture is always the final authority.
The bible as the final authority does not work; you and I are proof of that…You are simply ignoring me; that’s cool though…:)Again, when people share opposing doctrinal beliefs (like you and me) and cannot settle those doctrinal disputes via scripture alone, those same people reach an impasse and go their separate ways. Agreed?
 
House Harkonnen;11850673]Don’t. Obey your churches teaching regarding sacred scripture. Your church teaches the word and administers the sacraments, its a fine and venerable tradition. And I wish you blessings in word and sacrament.
Well, thanks, but that does not answer my questions…🤷
1 Cor 4:6
That verse cannot mean what you think it does because Paul says to the same 1st century Christians to adhere to both SS and ST: “So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.”👍 he is either teaching opposing things or he is not.

The word used is paradosis:

To that same community - “I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the traditions just as I passed them on to you.”
 
The bible as the final authority does not work; you and I are proof of that…You are simply ignoring me; that’s cool though…:)Again, when people share opposing doctrinal beliefs (like you and me) and cannot settle those doctrinal disputes via scripture alone, those same people reach an impasse and go their separate ways. Agreed?
No. I think we can work it out.

Also I am not ignoring you, in fact I think I have responded to all of your posts.
 
Well, thanks, but that does not answer my questions…🤷

That verse cannot mean what you think it does because Paul says to the same 1st century Christians to adhere to both SS and ST: “So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.”👍 he is either teaching opposing things or he is not.

The word used is paradosis:

To that same community - “I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the traditions just as I passed them on to you.”
Can you enumerate the traditions that are outside of scripture that Paul said to hold fast to, and how you know they are Pauline in origin?
 
Scripture is always the final authority.
Have you looked at the definition of authority lately?


  1. *]The power or right to give orders, make decisions, and enforce obedience.
    *]A person or organization having power or control in a particular, typically political or administrative, sphere.
    *]The power to influence others, especially because of one’s commanding manner or one’s recognized knowledge about something.

    There is a reason why Jesus says:

    Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."

    Right before He says:

    Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

    His authority is passed on to the Apostles, who in turn pass it to their disciples. All from Christ.
 
Can you enumerate the traditions that are outside of scripture that Paul said to hold fast to, and how you know they are Pauline in origin?
So you will not answer my questions, but…OK…🙂 The short answer - All catholic traditions are found either explicitly or implicitly within the pages of sacred scripture, with one big exception: the table of contents, put there by the CC. What I cannot find is where sola scriptura is taught within the pages of scripture. It say all scripture, as opposed to only scripture, is inspired, and we already covered “do not go beyond what is written…” 👍
 
No. I think we can work it out.

Also I am not ignoring you, in fact I think I have responded to all of your posts.
I was just joking about you ignoring me, hence the smiley face. :)You said that the following can be worked out using scripture alone:
When people share opposing doctrinal beliefs (like you and me) and cannot settle those doctrinal disputes via scripture alone, those same people reach an impasse and go their separate ways.
Let’s see if you and I can resolve our differences regarding opposing beliefs. See how silly that sounds? Either you will have to concede or I will, and neither of us are going to, hence the immovable impasse.
 
Let’s see if you and I can resolve our differences regarding opposing beliefs. See how silly that sounds? Either you will have to concede or I will, and neither of us are going to, hence the immovable impasse.
Joe, you and I both know this is impossible to resolve with SS. The way this has been resolved is by creating a new denomination or lack thereof… 😦
 
This brings a very dramatic question in place…
**
When, Where, and How did the Church that Jesus founded disappear?**
Hi Jose,

Within the pages of the New Testament I believe,we see continual disintegration and erosion of those teachings of Christ ,as witnessed and taught by his own sent ministers .
Primarily we need not venture beyond the Word of God,in search of the answers to your most pertinent questions.

In 1John 1, the apostle points his readers already to " That which was from the beginning"
even " the Word of life"

Verse 18 " Little children,it is the last time: as ye have heard that antichrist shall come,even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time"(KJV )

Do we not here ,in Johns own account ,see one of the contributing factors to the " Church " ,
Which was from the beginning ,on many fronts already in decline?

3John :9 " I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes,who loveth to have the preeminence among them,recieveth us not."

In the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ,penned by the same holy apostle ,who many of the seven " churches" which where in Asia ,does the Spirit speak to in a complimentary manner?

You know doubt no of the church at Galatia ( and its potential effects further afield) how ,to a man ,they had fallen ,and except for the diligence of the apostle ,“who hath bewitched you,that ye should not obey the truth”(Gal3:1) they would have remained.

The same apostle addresses a much fallen professing people of God in 1 and 2 Corinthians; and he also declares that " all they in Asia have forsaken me".

Even as Peter warns of in 2Pet 2:1 “But there were false prophets also among the people,even as there shall be false teachers among you,who privily shall bring in damnable heresies,”

Mostly,I believe, everything that would actually disappear after that time the last apostle John is seen finishing the work he was reserved for 😦 in Revelation) that could go wrong had gone wrong.

It is therefore my utmost belief that all subsequent errors can be examined in the historicity of the events recorded ( in scripture) and put to this test even today.

2John 9 " Whosoever transgresseth,and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ,hath not God.He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ,he hath both the Father and the Son"
 
General notice:
Hot Topic for the week of 3/31.
Please remain on topic.
 
Hi Jose,

trimmed

Mostly,I believe, everything that would actually disappear after that time the last apostle John is seen finishing the work he was reserved for 😦 in Revelation) that could go wrong had gone wrong.

It is therefore my utmost belief that all subsequent errors can be examined in the historicity of the events recorded ( in scripture) and put to this test even today.

2John 9 " Whosoever transgresseth,and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ,hath not God.He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ,he hath both the Father and the Son"
Bernard,

There are a plethora of errors/heresies that happened outside of Scriptures and that the Historical Church fought and condemned (Here is a small example from catholic.com):

Montanism (Late 2nd Century)

Montanus began his career innocently enough through preaching a return to penance and fervor. His movement also emphasized the continuance of miraculous gifts, such as speaking in tongues and prophecy. However, he also claimed that his teachings were above those of the Church, and soon he began to teach Christ’s imminent return in his home town in Phrygia. There were also statements that Montanus himself either was, or at least specially spoke for, the Paraclete that Jesus had promised would come (in reality, the Holy Spirit).

Sabellianism (Early 3rd Century)

The Sabellianists taught that Jesus Christ and God the Father were not distinct persons, but two.aspects or offices of one person. According to them, the three persons of the Trinity exist only in God’s relation to man, not in objective reality.

Arianism (4th Century)

Arius taught that Christ was a creature made by God. By disguising his heresy using orthodox or near-orthodox terminology, he was able to sow great confusion in the Church. He was able to muster the support of many bishops, while others excommunicated him.

Arianism was solemnly condemned in 325 at the First Council of Nicaea, which defined the divinity of Christ, and in 381 at the First Council of Constantinople, which defined the divinity of the Holy Spirit. These two councils gave us the Nicene creed, which Catholics recite at Mass every Sunday.

Pelagianism (5th Century)

Pelagius denied that we inherit original sin from Adam’s sin in the Garden and claimed that we become sinful only through the bad example of the sinful community into which we are born. Conversely, he denied that we inherit righteousness as a result of Christ’s death on the cross and said that we become personally righteous by instruction and imitation in the Christian community, following the example of Christ. Pelagius stated that man is born morally neutral and can achieve heaven under his own powers. According to him, God’s grace is not truly necessary, but merely makes easier an otherwise difficult task.

Semi-Pelagianism (5th Century)

After Augustine refuted the teachings of Pelagius, some tried a modified version of his system. This, too, ended in heresy by claiming that humans can reach out to God under their own power, without God’s grace; that once a person has entered a state of grace, one can retain it through one’s efforts, without further grace from God; and that natural human effort alone can give one some claim to receiving grace, though not strictly merit it.

Nestorianism (5th Century)

This heresy about the person of Christ was initiated by Nestorius, bishop of Constantinople, who denied Mary the title of Theotokos (Greek: “God-bearer” or, less literally, “Mother of God”). Nestorius claimed that she only bore Christ’s human nature in her womb, and proposed the alternative title Christotokos (“Christ-bearer” or “Mother of Christ”).

Orthodox Catholic theologians recognized that Nestorius’s theory would fracture Christ into two separate persons (one human and one divine, joined in a sort of loose unity), only one of whom was in her womb. The Church reacted in 431 with the Council of Ephesus, defining that Mary can be properly referred to as the Mother of God, not in the sense that she is older than God or the source of God, but in the sense that the person she carried in her womb was, in fact, God incarnate (“in the flesh”).

There is some doubt whether Nestorius himself held the heresy his statements imply, and in this century, the Assyrian Church of the East, historically regarded as a Nestorian church, has signed a fully orthodox joint declaration on Christology with the Catholic Church and rejects Nestorianism. It is now in the process of coming into full ecclesial communion with the Catholic Church.

Monophysitism (5th Century)

Monophysitism originated as a reaction to Nestorianism. The Monophysites (led by a man named Eutyches) were horrified by Nestorius’s implication that Christ was two people with two different natures (human and divine). They went to the other extreme, claiming that Christ was one person with only one nature (a fusion of human and divine elements). They are thus known as Monophysites because of their claim that Christ had only one nature (Greek: mono = one; physis = nature).

Orthodox Catholic theologians recognized that Monophysitism was as bad as Nestorianism because it denied Christ’s full humanity and full divinity. If Christ did not have a fully human nature, then he would not be fully human, and if he did not have a fully divine nature then he was not fully divine.

Continued…
 
Continued from Post #119

Those are just some examples of heresies that the Catholic Church fought. You won’t find them in Scriptures. That was my Church fighting those heretics.

Do you deny that the Church Jesus founded fought these heresies?

Do you think the Church died with the death of the last Apostle?

You still have not addressed the main question from the OP:

When, Where, and How did the Church that Jesus founded disappear?

You have to be able to point at event(s) in history where this happened, where it happened and how it happened.

Keeping in mind:

[bibledrb]Matthew 28:20[/bibledrb]
 
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