The historicity of the Church

[benhur]

The Bible doesn’t say this about itself … it’s the Church that says this about the 73 books of the Bible.
Joh 5:31 If I bear witness to myself, my testimony is not true;

Well the bible itself says scripture is God breathed, true and authoritative amongst many other things. The church does not pull these things out of the air.

You had posted:
Hanging out in a garage does not turn you into a car, and reading the bible a thousand times does not make you one with it in understanding.
… which I took to mean that just reading the Bible isn’t enough to understand it. In other words, the Bible is NOT perspicuous, which is the Catholic position, and must therefore be interpreted. Which then presents us with the question: who has the authority to rightly interpret the Bible? Apostolic Tradition tells us that the Magisterium has this Authority, and the Bible witnesses to this belief. See, for instance, 1Ti 3:15.

My posting was not a magnifier on the bible, but on the heart of man. It is not whether the bible is plain and simple, or its truths self evident. It is about having the mind of Christ, about the Spirit bearing witness to our converted, reborn spirit. It is about divine illumination. It is about the impossibility of flesh and blood to to “see”.

 

[benhur]

Also one should remember that with few exceptions, the authors of the New and Old Testament did not think of themselves as inspired writers of Scripture.

OK so some do say their stuff is inspired .Good. They also say other writers stuff is inspired. I am sure you can try to figure out if all the other writers felt uninspired or not . I mean just cause they don’t specificly say they are inspired do you want to go on record to say they felt thy were not ?

Israel came to recognize Scripture’s special authority even though nowhere in the Old Testament is a book said t be inspired by God.

I disagree.

What the Old Testament contains is Israel’ belief that God revealed Himself in history and that history was guided by God’s Spirit. The writers of the Old Testament teach that the “Breath of God” came upon Moses, the Judges, Saul, David the prophets etc. These specially chosen people wit the help of God’s Spirit, interpreted Israel’s history.

Ok isn’t that saying it is God -breathed ?

t is not Scripture that claims be have authority but those who have come to recognize That it is from this belief that the scribes deduced that the same Spirit of God was with the sacred authors when they wrote their book. it was the presence of God’s Spirit that gave Scripture its authoritative character.

OK. Still seems to be God breathed. That it requires faith, a recipient, a beholder does not transfer it’s authority.

 

[Nicea325]

A comment like this is undeserving of a response.

Yep! Jesus had the same problem with the Jewish leadership. They simply could not step outside of their box and accept His words and authority at face value.

Sorry you cannot acknowledge it.

 

[Nicea325]

OK so some do say their stuff is inspired .Good. They also say other writers stuff is inspired. I am sure you can try to figure out if all the other writers felt uninspired or not . I mean just cause they don’t specificly say they are inspired do you want to go on record to say they felt thy were not ?
I disagree. Ok isn’t that saying it is God -breathed ?OK. Still seems to be God breathed. That it requires faith, a recipient, a beholder does not transfer it’s authority.

And how does that equate into the final authority? There isn’t a single verse anywhere declaring the Bible-alone is the only or the highest authority.

 

[edkw55]

The one true Church established by Jesus Christ is the Roman Catholic Church.

True or False.

With all due respect to the Roman Catholics involved in this debate on the issue of authority, all of your arguments are based on your “opinion” that the answer to this question is true.

For the sake of argument, what if the answer to this question is false? What would this lead us to conclude about the Roman Catholic Church and Protestantism?

 

[benhur]

And how does that equate into the final authority? There isn’t a single verse anywhere declaring the Bible-alone is the only or the highest authority.

Are you denying God’s Word is not the highest ? Do you not believe the bible is His written Word ? That is a general question, knowing there is “fine print” (like 66 or 72 or 77 books). Let us not obfuscate, muddy, the general issue here though. Because a magisterium/church/denomination decide “fine print” does that make them equal or higher ?

 

[edkw55]

The one true Church established by Jesus Christ is the Roman Catholic Church.

True or False.

With all due respect to the Roman Catholics involved in this debate on the issue of authority, all of your arguments are based on your “opinion” that the answer to this question is true.

For the sake of argument, what if the answer to this question is false? What would this lead us to conclude about the Roman Catholic Church and Protestantism?

and the issue we have been debating…Authority.

Jesus is the Head of the Church. We all agree on this.

We are left with Jesus as the Head of the Church and the Bible alone as our Authority on all matters of faith and practice. All traditions, doctrines, practices, etc. must then be tested against the Authority of the Bible alone.

All of this is assuming, for the sake of argument, that the response to the above statement is false.

In His Grace.

Ed

 

[Holly3278]

The historicity of the Catholic Church can easily be traced all the way back to Jesus Christ. There is a direct and continuous line of popes going all the way back to Saint Peter. Also, all bishops trace their holy orders through apostolic succession all the way back to the apostles and disciples. In addition, there has never been a period of time in the history of the entire world since Pentecost when there were no Catholic churches in the world. Also, the Catholic Church as an institution has also continuously existed throughout the history of the world from the time of Pentecost. That said, there are examples where certain nations were persecuted so severely that no Catholic parishes existed any longer. I think so anyway. However, I am pretty sure that there continues to be Catholic believers, often in private, who live in places like North Korea where Christians are severely persecuted.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Well the bible itself says scripture is God breathed, true and authoritative amongst many other things. The church does not pull these things out of the air.

God breathed like here?:

John 20:21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”

He breathed on men, those men commissioned in Matthew 28. And who were to choose other men to carry on the faith deposited once for all.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

The Church that Jesus established is the present day Roman Catholic Church.

Did you read the OP?

When, Where, and How did the Church that Jesus founded disappear?

Without any speculations, can you answer the question and say that the Catholic Church is not?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I would be lying to myself as well as to all of you if denied the fact that I still find myself being drawn to the Roman Catholic Church in an incredibly powerful way. What is doing this “drawing”? God? Satan? Is it just me? This journey I have been on these last three years has been extremely painful. I ask that God will lead me to what is Truth. Whether it is to be found in Protestantism or Roman Catholicism. I will follow Jesus wherever He leads me. And yes, it is a very heavy burden to be your own Pope. I ask for all of your prayers as well.

Peace be with all of you.

edkw55

Ed, my prayers are with you.

That was me for about 10 years. Although I was raised Catholic and walked away from the Faith in College, like millions of others… (We really need to do a better job for the young adults in Catholicism…).

I’ve been to almost every major denomination and was blessed enough to be able to talk to many Pastors and Professors - with the exception of 2 of them - all were men of God and very honest, considerate and gentle with my struggles.

You must be patient, it is a long process and that seems to be the norm… very annoying, I know!

You must pray, constantly.

You must treat online discussions with extreme care. They are tone deaf by nature. Also, they can be impersonal. But most importantly, without valid references - it’s just an opinion.

Feel free to reach out to me by PM. My prayers are with you for patience and clarity of mind and a humble spirit.

 

[edkw55]

When, Where, and How did the Church that Jesus founded disappear?

Your question is based on your “opinion” that the one true Church established by Jesus Christ is the Roman Catholic Church.

In your OP you say you are only interested in cold, hard, facts.

 

[edkw55]

Ed, my prayers are with you.

That was me for about 10 years. Although I was raised Catholic and walked away from the Faith in College, like millions of others… (We really need to do a better job for the young adults in Catholicism…).

I’ve been to almost every major denomination and was blessed enough to be able to talk to many Pastors and Professors - with the exception of 2 of them - all were men of God and very honest, considerate and gentle with my struggles.

You must be patient, it is a long process and that seems to be the norm… very annoying, I know!

You must pray, constantly.

You must treat online discussions with extreme care. They are tone deaf by nature. Also, they can be impersonal. But most importantly, without valid references - it’s just an opinion.

Feel free to reach out to me by PM. My prayers are with you for patience and clarity of mind and a humble spirit.

Thank you Jose.

My prayers are with you as well.

Ed

 

[benhur]

God breathed like here?:

John 20:21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”

He breathed on men, those men commissioned in Matthew 28. And who were to choose other men to carry on the faith deposited once for all.

Anything true whether it be from man or scripture is thru the Holy Ghost. “For as men were moved by the Holy Ghost they spoke and wrote the prophecies of God” 2 Peter 1. “All scripture is given by the inspiration of God” 2 Tim 3

 

[benhur]

God breathed like here?:

John 20:21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”

He breathed on men, those men commissioned in Matthew 28. And who were to choose other men to carry on the faith deposited once for all.

Any believer has this gift of the Holy Spirit. If you are a disciple, you are commissioned.

 

[edkw55]

The only point I am trying to make is tthe following:

The doctrine of Apostolic Succession cannot be proven by “cold, hard, facts”. We can go back and forth from now until the end of time about history and the writings of the early Church fathers etc. but at the end of the day the doctrine of Apostolic is something that must be accepted by faith. Is there even one person here willing to admit to the possibility?

In His Grace.

Ed

 

[Nicea325]

The only point I am trying to make is tthe following:

The doctrine of Apostolic Succession cannot be proven by “cold, hard, facts”. We can go back and forth from now until the end of time about history and the writings of the early Church fathers etc. but at the end of the day the doctrine of Apostolic is something that must be accepted by faith. Is there even one person here willing to admit to the possibility?

In His Grace.

Ed

Sorry,but that is a poor understanding of AS and historical writings.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

The only point I am trying to make is tthe following:

The doctrine of Apostolic Succession cannot be proven by “cold, hard, facts”. We can go back and forth from now until the end of time about history and the writings of the early Church fathers etc. but at the end of the day the doctrine of Apostolic is something that must be accepted by faith. Is there even one person here willing to admit to the possibility?

In His Grace.

Ed

You understand that there has been a direct line of Bishops (Not just Catholic but Orthodox as well) since the Apostles? If that is not a cold, hard fact. Then nothing will be for you.

 

[edkw55]

Sorry,but that is a poor understanding of AS and historical writings.

And you are being evasive to what I originally posted below…“what if the response to this statement is false”???

The one true Church established by Jesus Christ is the Roman Catholic Church.

True or False.

With all due respect to the Roman Catholics involved in this debate on the issue of authority, all of your arguments are based on your “opinion” that the response to this statement is true.

For the sake of argument, what if the response to this statement is false? What would this lead us to conclude about the Roman Catholic Church, Protestantism, and Authority?

 

[edkw55]

You understand that there has been a direct line of Bishops (Not just Catholic but Orthodox as well) since the Apostles? If that is not a cold, hard fact. Then nothing will be for you.

Sorry Jose, but what you have said is not a cold hard fact.

Ed