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Isaiah45_9
Guest
I see…
Let’s start with one the favorite targets of Christianity, the Pope:
List of Popes:
newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm
Do you refute any of them? With cold hard facts.
- Status
Let’s start with one the favorite targets of Christianity, the Pope:
List of Popes:
newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm
Do you refute any of them? With cold hard facts.
B
benhur
Guest
Yes and no. The first five are sometimes ordered differently, depending on the ancient author/historian . Why ? Well many historians agree that there was no head bishop in Rome for several centuries, but the church at Rome was ruled by a group of elders/presbyters/bishops. Even Iraneus, whose list is sometimes referred to, does not claim head bishop for them but does exalt Rome, and has Paul and Peter as the first. But from 5 on their is no dispute. I have even seen some lists for bishops of certain churches that go way back. But I agree with Ed in that what does that mean ? What does such a list mean ? Does it mean perfection ? Does it mean they are exactly like the first ? Does that prove that last doctrines and practices are exactly like the first ? Does that mean some are not grafted in ? Which means some are cut off ? This is not a foreign idea to us gentiles. Does that mean that Luther or any reformers are cut off or are they actually engrafted in to much earlier part of the tree ? Last I heard they do not say they are unapostolic. Further, does that mean the list for Rome is to rule over the list from Antioch or say over the Orthodox ? Why did Iraneus give lists of bishops from two other cities, even suggesting that all city churches have a history of careful succession, which is nothing more than appointing good elders/presbyters/bishops( not that the Church is Catholic, but catholic" ? Again the orthodox last I heard are not in union with Rome, and hence go by another name, also have “lists”. Apostolic succession does not prove Catholicism but can be a wonderful part of our catholic/universal Christian history.,. So it is in the eye of the beholder, as has been put forth to you by Ed, even a matter of faith. Thankfully all we have are evidences for our differing faith on this matter, lest any should boast or claim independence.
E
edkw55
Guest
Catechism of the Catholic Church
Paragraph 3. The Church Is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic
811 "This is the sole Church of Christ, which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic and apostolic."256 These four characteristics, inseparably linked with each other,257 indicate essential features of the Church and her mission. The Church does not possess them of herself; it is Christ who, through the Holy Spirit, makes his Church one, holy, catholic, and apostolic, and it is he who calls her to realize each of these qualities.
812 Only faith can recognize that the Church possesses these properties from her divine source. But their historical manifestations are signs that also speak clearly to human reason. As the First Vatican Council noted, the "Church herself, with her marvelous propagation, eminent holiness, and inexhaustible fruitfulness in everything good, her catholic unity and invincible stability, is a great and perpetual motive of credibility and an irrefutable witness of her divine mission."258
I am not dismissing the role of history in appealing to our human reason. The point I am trying to make (and the CCC confirms this) is that at the end of the day, only faith can recognize Apostolic Succession as being truth,
Paragraph 3. The Church Is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic
811 "This is the sole Church of Christ, which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic and apostolic."256 These four characteristics, inseparably linked with each other,257 indicate essential features of the Church and her mission. The Church does not possess them of herself; it is Christ who, through the Holy Spirit, makes his Church one, holy, catholic, and apostolic, and it is he who calls her to realize each of these qualities.
812 Only faith can recognize that the Church possesses these properties from her divine source. But their historical manifestations are signs that also speak clearly to human reason. As the First Vatican Council noted, the "Church herself, with her marvelous propagation, eminent holiness, and inexhaustible fruitfulness in everything good, her catholic unity and invincible stability, is a great and perpetual motive of credibility and an irrefutable witness of her divine mission."258
I am not dismissing the role of history in appealing to our human reason. The point I am trying to make (and the CCC confirms this) is that at the end of the day, only faith can recognize Apostolic Succession as being truth,
E
edkw55
Guest
In one of my earliest post I stated that, as a protestant, I am in full union with the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church established by Jesus Christ.
Of coarse, as a protestant, my definition of the term apostolic is radically different from that of the Roman Catholic Church and has nothing whatsoever to do with Her doctrine of Apostolic Succession.
In His Grace.
Ed
Of coarse, as a protestant, my definition of the term apostolic is radically different from that of the Roman Catholic Church and has nothing whatsoever to do with Her doctrine of Apostolic Succession.
In His Grace.
Ed
E
edkw55
Guest
The one true Church established by Jesus Christ is the Roman Catholic Church.
True or False?
With all due respect to the Roman Catholics involved in this debate on the issue of authority, all of your arguments are based on your “opinion” that the response to this statement is true.
For the sake of argument, what if the response to this statement is false? What would this lead us to conclude about Roman Catholicism, Protestantism, and the issue of Authority?
True or False?
With all due respect to the Roman Catholics involved in this debate on the issue of authority, all of your arguments are based on your “opinion” that the response to this statement is true.
For the sake of argument, what if the response to this statement is false? What would this lead us to conclude about Roman Catholicism, Protestantism, and the issue of Authority?
E
edkw55
Guest
Jesus loves me—this I know,
For the Bible tells me so;
Little ones to Him belong—
They are weak, but He is strong.
Refrain
Yes, Jesus loves me!
Yes, Jesus loves me!
Yes, Jesus loves me!
The Bible tells me so.
Jesus loves me—He who died
Heaven’s gate to open wide;
He will wash away my sin,
Let His little child come in.
Refrain
Jesus loves me—loves me still,
Though I’m very weak and ill;
From His shining throne on high
Comes to watch me where I lie.
Refrain
Jesus loves me—He will stay
Close beside me all the way,
Then His little child will take
Up to Heaven for His dear sake.
Words: Anna B. Warner, 1860; refrain by William Bradbury. This hymn first appeared in the novel Say and Seal, by Warner’s sister Susan (Philadelphia, Pennsylvania: J. B. Lippincott & Company, 1860), volume II, pages 115-6. She wanted a song for a Sunday School teacher to sing to a dying boy, and asked Anna to write it.
For the Bible tells me so;
Little ones to Him belong—
They are weak, but He is strong.
Refrain
Yes, Jesus loves me!
Yes, Jesus loves me!
Yes, Jesus loves me!
The Bible tells me so.
Jesus loves me—He who died
Heaven’s gate to open wide;
He will wash away my sin,
Let His little child come in.
Refrain
Jesus loves me—loves me still,
Though I’m very weak and ill;
From His shining throne on high
Comes to watch me where I lie.
Refrain
Jesus loves me—He will stay
Close beside me all the way,
Then His little child will take
Up to Heaven for His dear sake.
Words: Anna B. Warner, 1860; refrain by William Bradbury. This hymn first appeared in the novel Say and Seal, by Warner’s sister Susan (Philadelphia, Pennsylvania: J. B. Lippincott & Company, 1860), volume II, pages 115-6. She wanted a song for a Sunday School teacher to sing to a dying boy, and asked Anna to write it.
J
josie_L
Guest
First, I’m confused, it says you’re Roman Catholic and currently in RCIA. Second, Jesus established the CATHOLIC CHURCH (there are 22 sui iuris churches, one of which is the Latin rite of the Roman Catholic Church). Third, there is historical and biblical support that confirm the unique establishment of the Catholic Church by Christ through his apostles, if you can confirm otherwise, then please specify your arguments.
J
JustaServant
Guest
Many converts in RCIA consider themselves to be Catholic in a forward thinking sense. We had a few such in our RCIA this past year.
C
CarmelJerome
Guest
An apostle is not one who believes that he or she has been appointed by Christ, but one who shows the marks of being an apostle, and to re-define apostle so that it fits one’s doctrine is pure Humpty Dumptyism – no different from Joseph Smith’s or anyone else’s claim that they were sent by Jesus.
J
josie_L
Guest
No, I was reading further and he is now a Protestant, thus his current religious status should I believe be changed to avoid confusion.
J
JustaServant
Guest
I believe that is a decision HE should make. There is no reason to doubt his sincerity.
J
josie_L
Guest
No, you are not in full communion with the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church established by Jesus, in fact, it’s rather ironic that you should use this statement uttered by the council of Nicea (the first council of many for the Catholic Church), when you’ve established that you no longer view councils as authoritative (sola scriptura).
J
josie_L
Guest
JustaServant, he’s already established that he’s a Protestant on this very thread, I did not make it up out of thin air.
J
JustaServant
Guest
Yeah, but you wrote “he needs to change his status”. If the guy is on the fence and has questions, a remark like that can throw him further away from Catholicism, not toward it.
That is the concern of every Catholic on this thread.
S
spina1953
Guest
Hi Justa Servant" I agree whole heartily!!!
P
PJM
Guest
Hi Ed, as a treacher of our catholic faith for 20+ years, and 3 of them in RCIA, and 4 more teacing converts though a free internet ministry, I do have some idea of what your pain in.
The amount of incorrect or at least incomplete information on what we Catholics actually do beliefe can be staggering. But I would point out, that there are difficulties for us Catholics too, eho Do fully practive our Faith.
I sahre this NOT to make you feel better, rather ONLY to show that we ARE in this struggle togeather. When the below lesson was taught, it was only Catholics to whom it was directed.
Take Up your Cross and Follow Me
Phil.2: 8 “And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross Luke.9 :23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Mark.8: 34 And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. Luke.9: 23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Luke.14: **7 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.” **
BECAUSE Christ suffered ALL of us MUST expect a similar lifes’s journey. IMO, Protestants having removed Christ Corpus form His Crosss, do the faithful an injustice that seems to be to overlook or at least down play this crtical teaching.
PRAY MUCH my friend, God WILL help you get through it.
God Bless you,
Patrick
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
Read again carefully, Ed.
The possesses does not mean that there is an absence of historical presence. Which is why it follows with your other highlight:
IOW - facts. It is a historical fact that we have a direct succession to Peter.
If you want to change to a subject of faith, that is your prerogative. You asked and I supplied you with facts. It is [not] my [opinion], it [is] a [historical fact]. If you have historical facts from credible sources that what I have presented to you is not, then you must present it.
Sadly, there is so much misconception and false history out there that it is hard to accept history and we are inclined to ignore it and turn our reason away.
Faith without reason is credulity.
You posted the wonderful song of “Jesus loves me”. It also say because the bible tells me so.
We have known that since before the bible was put together, because He said that to our 1st Bishops in person. And that message has been carried on since.
Peace,
J
JustaServant
Guest
Thanks Spina.
Edward,
As person who spent 20 years across the Tiber, don’t expect to understand everything at once, it just doesn’t work that way. My process took several years.
One of the great things about being Catholic (again), is that I am not required to “know everything”, meaning I can relax in my quest to understand everything about theology and history. It doesn’t mean I accept ignorance, it just means my approach is understanding how much I do not know, and have yet to learn. You never “arrive”.
Don’t be put off my overzealous Catholics who have “all or nothing” philosophy.
Many of us have been where you currently are my friend.
E
edkw55
Guest
I was just informed of the “no proselytizing” rule on this forum so I will unsubscribe and stop posting. Just so all of you know, I was sincere about joining the Roman Catholic Church but Protestant I must remain. I appreciate conversing with each and every one of you.
Peace be with all.
Ed
Peace be with all.
Ed
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edkw55
Guest
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