The Holy Bible (origin\compilation)

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scylla

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I was in a discussion on the Apologists forum which went in several directions and was burying posts. I don’t have time to find my last post but I offered to a poster the opportunity to research and discuss this issue.

The origin of the Bible he time of compilation and how many books should be in it.

I briefly explained that the Bible was compiled a few hundred years after Jesus, and was virtually untouched except for the recent past. Thus we have the Bible with 73 books.
There are some non-catholic versions of the Bible which arose about 150 years ago with 66 books. I believe this was under the Bible societies influence to go to a standard of 66 books.
(correct me if I am wrong on this) I have a King James Bible which is about 150 years old with 73 books.

I believe Jerome an early translator of the Bible initially endorsed the Jewish canon, then changed his mind and defended the longer canon after the Church decided differently.
(I am looking for the document where he defends this also)

If anyone can chime in with some source material for this I would appreciate this.

God Bless
Scylla
 
Thank you for adressing this seperately. The other forum is branching out, and is harder to follow individual topics.
scylla said:
I believe Jerome an early translator of the Bible initially endorsed the Jewish canon, then changed his mind and defended the longer canon after the Church decided differently.
(I am looking for the document where he defends this also)

If anyone can chime in with some source material for this I would appreciate this.

God Bless
Scylla
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What information do you have on Jerome? I am curious to see the reasons for which he first accepted the Jewish Canon. I am equally curious to see his reasoning for changing his mind. Is there any books or articles that were written by Jerome himself?
 
Yes, there is lots on Jerome and he is particularly interesting to me, St Jerome is my patron saint. (which means a saint that I hold up as a good example in following Christ)

He wrote huge amounts and this is accessible on the web or you can buy books of commentaries, refutations and such by him. He wrote a lot, and there is plenty available to read from him.

I believe he studied scripture direct from many Hebrew scholars and was very sympathetic to their conversion. He suggested that using their canon would be useful to communication with them.
I think it was Pope Damasus who decided to go with the traditional Christian canon, then Jerome agreed and defended that position.

You can read some of his stuff over at ccel.org/
I believe this is Calvin College.

God Bless
Scylla
 
I think the most important evidence that St. Jerome accepted the 73 book canon of the Scriptures is that this is what he published for the Church, in the full knowledge that this was going to be the official text for the readings at Mass until the coming of the Judgement Day.

If he had had any qualms of conscience about including either of the Deuterocanons - the Old Testament Deuterocanon, or the New Testament Deuterocanon, he would have simply left them out.

Not out of pride, but out of humility, he knew perfectly well what his role in history was, and what effect his Bible was going to have on the Church.

It wasn’t questioned by any Christian until the time of Luther - and Luther in the end went with the 73 book Bible; it was only long after his death that some people decided to go with the 66-book canon, and I never understood the reasons, even when I was Protestant.
 
What are the Seven other books?
Who are the Authors?
When were they written?
 
protestantman said:
What are the Seven other books?
Who are the Authors?
When were they written?
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Here is a worksheet that shows the order of the Books of the Bible.

The seven books that are left out of Protestant Bibles are Tobit, Judith, several chapters of Esther, I Maccabees, II Maccabees, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, and several chapters of Daniel.

As to who wrote them - I am under the impression that King Solomon had something to do with Wisdom and Sirach, but I’m not completely sure. Baruch obviously wrote Baruch, and someone who knew Daniel wrote Daniel. The rest, I’m not really sure at all, other than that they were scribes who knew of these events and recorded them in order to educate the people of God about their history and their relationship with God during the period of the Captivity.

They were written during and after the period of the Captivity.
 
Under what criteria were these books accepted?

Who first accepted them?
Did Christ or the Apostles ever make a spefic reference to these books?
 
I notice that Jerome was reluctant when he compiled Judith. Why is that?
 
protestantman said:
Under what criteria were these books accepted?
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That they were useful for instruction, reproof, and the building up of the faith.
Who first accepted them?
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I don’t really know. They were in general use during the time of Jesus. Most likely it would have been the rabbis of post-captivity Israel.
Did Christ or the Apostles ever make a spefic reference to these books?
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Someone has a list of the New Testament references to these books; hopefully, I can find it for you. The Early Church was referring to them constantly, since they are full of very explicit prophecies about the Messiah. I mean, how could anybody read the Book of Wisdom and not say, “Hey! That’s Jesus!!” :bounce:

🙂
 
That they were useful for instruction, reproof, and the building up of the faith.
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So are Hymns.
Someone has a list of the New Testament references to these books; hopefully, I can find it for you. The Early Church was referring to them constantly, since they are full of very explicit prophecies about the Messiah. I mean, how could anybody read the Book of Wisdom and not say, “Hey! That’s Jesus!!” :bounce:
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Please do, as I would appreciate that very much.
 
As far as I know…
Jesus and the Apostles used these books as other Jews in that time did.
These books were included in the Septuagint which is the group of books Christ and the Apostles used. These were used by Christians and were rejected by the Jews about the year 70 to 100AD.
I believe that Hebrews references Maccabees in the account of martyrs dying for the faith. 11:35 Most the New Testament quotes from the Septuagint, which is the version that included the 7 books.

As for Judith, I have no idea about that, maybe someone else can help.

God Bless
Scylla
 
These books were part of the Septuagint, and were accepted by the Jews of Jesus’ time.

The (these 7 books) were rejected by a Jewish council in 90 A.D. Some have said that the reason they were rejected is because they were being used successfully to converts Jews to Christianity. While that is not known, the book of Wisdom certainly seems to accurately portray the suffering of our Lord.

The earliest versions that we have of these books is in Greek, but some may have been written in Hebrew.

The Jewish holiday of Hannukah is commemoration of the cleansing of the Temple, which takes place in 1 Maccabees. The date of this event was the 25 of the Jewish month of their calendar, which is how some of suggested that we got our date for the celebration of the Lord’s birth.

Martin Luther questioned the authority of these books not because of his agreement with the 1st century council, but because they suggest certain Catholic doctrines such as Purgatory and praying for the dead.

Nevertheless, he still included them in his bible, and they were actually taken out of Protestant bibles until several hundred years later.

The books form an important part of the Church’s cycle of readings.
 
scylla said:
As far as I know…
Jesus and the Apostles used these books as other Jews in that time did.
These books were included in the Septuagint which is the group of books Christ and the Apostles used. These were used by Christians and were rejected by the Jews about the year 70 to 100AD.
I believe that Hebrews references Maccabees in the account of martyrs dying for the faith. 11:35 Most the New Testament quotes from the Septuagint, which is the version that included the 7 books.

As for Judith, I have no idea about that, maybe someone else can help.

God Bless
Scylla
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The text of Hebrews 11:35 is non specific. A few verses prior is evidence of that. Thus I cannot be sure that this is or is not a reference to the Septuagint.
 
A Visual Diagram of the History of the New Testament Canon
(all Protestant sources)

From the Synod of Hippo, Canon 29, A.D. 393:

Besides the canonical Scriptures, nothing shall be read in the church under the title of divine writings. The canonical books are:—Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, the four books of Kings , the two books of Chronicles, Job, the Psalms of David, the five books of Solomon Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus], the twelve books of the Prophets *, Isaiah, Jeremiah [including Baruch], Daniel, Ezekiel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, two books of Esdras , two books of the Maccabees. The books of the New Testament are:—the four Gospels, the Acts of the Apostles, thirteen Epistles of S. Paul, one Epistle of S. Paul to the Hebrews, two Epistles of S. Peter, three Epistles of S. John, the Epistle of S. James, the Epistle of S. Jude, the Revelation of S. John. Concerning the confirmation of this canon, the transmarine Church * shall be consulted.

web.archive.org/web/20040226202246/www.catholicoutlook.com/objbible1.html

This was reaffirmed by Pope Damascus letter on the Canon to the Bishops in Asia Minor in 405. In 418, the canons of the 16 North African Councils were declared official Church teaching by the Pope. In 787, Nicea II reaffirmed the authority of these councils. In 1483, Pope Eugenius wrote the Letter to the Jacobites as the closing act of the Council of Florence and there he affirmed the Canon of Hippo. St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Ambrose, St. Gregory the Great, St. Albertus Magnus and all of the major fathers of the Middle Ages affirmed the Canon of Hippo.
 
thistle said:
The Holy Spirit was the guide through which the Catholic Church decided which books were inspired or not.
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As we have covered the topic that I do not believe in the infallibility of the Pope, then whether or not the church was actually guided by the HS or not is still without evidence. I am not just gonna take your word for it. This is why I am asking for specific criteria.
 
As we have covered the topic that I do not believe in the infallibility of the Pope, then whether or not the church was actually guided by the HS or not is still without evidence. I am not just gonna take your word for it. This is why I am asking for specific criteria.
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Four Criteria for Canonicity
(why certain books were eventually accepted into the NT Canon, while others were rejected):

  1. *]Apostolic Origin - attributed to and/or based on the preaching/teaching of the first-generation apostles (or their closest companions).
    *]Universal Acceptance - acknowledged by all major Christian communities in the Mediterranean world (by the end of the fourth century).
    *]Liturgical Use - read publicly along with the OT when early Christians gathered for the Lord’s Supper (their weekly worship services).
    *]Consistent Message - containing theological ideas compatible with other accepted Christian writings (incl. the divinity and humanity Jesus).
    There were, for example, 15 “books of Acts” floating around, so I don’t buy the theory that individual believers automatically knew which books were inspired and which weren’t because the Holy Spirit told them and not those who were BIBLICALLY ordained with BIBLICAL authority. They went by strict criteria, and led by the Holy Spirit, not opinions.

    List of books accepted and rejected:
    scborromeo.org/truth/fig4.htm
 
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