The Horror: This is Why Catholic Traditionalist Fear Pope Francis

[Saints_Alive]

SSPX and Sedevacantists reject every pope that came after VII. So, why would Pope Francis make any difference to them?

You obviously have no idea what the SSPX accepts or rejects. If you did, you wouldn’t say that. Do you have any idea what a Una Cum Mass is ?

The unjust stigma hanging over the SSPX could be argued to be the 8th Delor of Mary.

 

[TimothyH]

theblaze.com/stories/2013/03/30/the-horror-this-is-why-catholic-traditionalists-fear-pope-francis/

An interesting article I found from The Blaze and it very true. For those of you who know me I am not the most traditional of Catholics; in fact I want to follow the spirit in finding theological bridges to include our own people as aboriginal into the church and for that I can be (and have no problem) with being labelled progressive or liberal … (“Labels” are none of my business I cannot control what others think about me - that is not my business).

However, this article and what I have read here highlights a new problem and that is the uncomfort of my brothers and sisters who are traditionalist. I believe that we need to have the extraordinary mass, latin has a place in our church, and when I go to a predominately traditional mass I respect the choice in style of the majority and even kneel to recieve communion on the tongue (have not done that since the 60’s)!

What I believe Francis is talking about is embracing unity in diversity and I would hope that traditional catholics would embrace my efforts to find an expression, symbolism that would reaffirm who we are as Catholics but within an environment that honours our creators gift of giving us an aboriginal world view… yeah stuff like that.

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster (indigenous symbol for transformation - conversion and changing into something…)

Bruce, the article is drivel written by Bill Hallowell no more than sixteen days after Pope Francis took office back in March. It was picked up by the Associated Press, published in USA today and was widely posted on the Internet on March 30.

It’s old news to begin with, even if it is news. It isn’t even journalism. Bill Hallowell writes articles specifically to stir up controversy including article after article about gay marriage - he is obsessed with the topic. Controversy sells, and he knows it.

-Tim-

 

[Megan7]

theblaze.com/stories/2013/03/30/the-horror-this-is-why-catholic-traditionalists-fear-pope-francis/

An interesting article I found from The Blaze and it very true. For those of you who know me I am not the most traditional of Catholics; in fact I want to follow the spirit in finding theological bridges to include our own people as aboriginal into the church and for that I can be (and have no problem) with being labelled progressive or liberal … (“Labels” are none of my business I cannot control what others think about me - that is not my business).

However, this article and what I have read here highlights a new problem and that is the uncomfort of my brothers and sisters who are traditionalist. I believe that we need to have the extraordinary mass, latin has a place in our church, and when I go to a predominately traditional mass I respect the choice in style of the majority and even kneel to recieve communion on the tongue (have not done that since the 60’s)!

What I believe Francis is talking about is embracing unity in diversity and I would hope that traditional catholics would embrace my efforts to find an expression, symbolism that would reaffirm who we are as Catholics but within an environment that honours our creators gift of giving us an aboriginal world view… yeah stuff like that.

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster (indigenous symbol for transformation - conversion and changing into something…)

Thanks for the link, I will read it later on.

 

[Seamus_L]

To put things in an another perspective. When Benedict was elected Pope in 2005, I heard all sorts of rumors from some people, that we would now see an extreme right wing purge directed at liberal-left wing Catholics, and that the SSPX would be brought back into the fold just as they are, no questions asked. Needless to say, none of that happened, and 8 years later when Francis became Pope, I began hearing the exact opposite. Traditional Catholicism is out and we will now move towards becoming a more modern-progressive church. However, only a day or so after Pope Francis’ “Who Am I To Judge” statements, I noticed at least a few pro-homosexual, feminist, websites reminding people not to be taken in by the kindly demeanor of Pope Francis, because in there words, he remains a homophobic-sexist bigot, who has made outrageous statements in the past regarding homosexual marriage, adoption, a woman’s choice, etc.

 

[trickster]

The Traditionalists forget that Pope Francis is a Jesuit and that the Jesuits were form as the ‘schock troops’ of the Church. “To error is human, to really mix things up you need a Jesuit.”

Good one tabycat… I was told also by a Jesuit friend of mine that it is easier to ask for forgiveness for having done something rather than for permission from the local bishop “to do” something… I like the outlook

 

[trickster]

This looks like people are looking for controversy where there is none.

I love Pope Benedict. He’s a genius, a holy man and a patient man. But I have not forgotten Doctor Ratzinger who refused to wear a clerical shirt or cassock at any of the Vatican II proceedings, always wearing a shirt and tie and signing everything as Doctor, not Rev or Father.

I have not forgotten something that he said in his interview in Light of the World when asked if he missed his jackets and sweaters. He said that he did miss them, but he had inherited the daily use of the white house cassock. In other words, it was not his choice of clothing. It was Bl. John Paul’s choice. Probably, Bl. John Paul found the house cassock to be comfortable. Who knows and who cares? It’s his home and he can walk around in his boxers if he wishes to do so.

The point is that some are making Joseph Ratzinger into the super hero of Traditionalism, which he is not. He is the superhero of fidelity to the Church. Let us not forget that it was he who threw the monkey wrench into the final discussion with the SSPX as reported by Bishop Fellay himself. It was Pope Benedict who said that the CCC, Vatican II and the Ordinary Form of the mass had to be accepted as is, without criticism. It was he who refused to give the SSPX the freedom that it asked for to teach about the “errors of Vatican II” It was Pope Benedict who appointed Archbishop Dinoia and Archbishop Mueller who referred to the SSPX argument as sophistry. How quickly we forget.

Pope Benedict brought out the externals that satisfied the Traditionalist eyes, but left the the everything else in place. This is not a criticism. It’s just a fact.

Now, we have Pope Francis, who is not too interested in the externals and he’s being accused of throwing Pope Benedict under the bus along with the reform of the reform. This is a gross and unfair statement about both men.

The pope is a Jesuit. In simple language, he is a consecrated religious. He’s not going to live and do things the way that our secular popes have done them for 200 years. Live with it or ask the Holy See to pass a law that prohibits the election of religious to the papacy.

All of this comparison sounds almost childish. It’s the kind of thing that kids do when one parents says one thing and another says something different. The parents may be saying different things, not opposing points, but the child finds a way of splitting.

Catholics on both sides of the aisle need to grow up.

Hello JReduction! It has been years since I have connected with you on this forum…glad to know you are still out there and still engaging!

I tend to agree with your points; my sense is that Pope Benedict for us was a stabilizing force; he was able to create -as only theologians can do - a theological base for understanding JP 1 and 2; trying to open up the church for traditionalists (and I hate labels…Catholics who are nurtured by the more traditional forms within the roman rite) while totally respecting the work of the Spirit in Vatican II and the infallable pronouncements of John XXIII. He has been a breathing in and a papacy of reflection, focus, anchoring and so forth The Holy Spirit must be honored here for his direction in who are pope is, and it is again a time of movement with Francis, whom I am personally excited about as he indicated the need for new theology with regard to the role of women int he church…so perhaps there is an indication and an openess to move forward on bridging aboriginal theology that we have discussed so much over the past few years.

The article, I am not sure if it was trying to find differences between Benedict/tradtionalists and Francis/more progressive catholics…I think it was an honest observation of how many traditionalist “could have” percieved the actions of Frances who - like the original Francis, upset a few clerical bureaucrats…- and I quite enjoyed the article.

I really like how you put Benedict into perspective; I find all of your writing fair and balanced and you always see all sides of the angle before sharing your “take” on things…nice to hear you again.

Bruce
Trickster

 

[trickster]

Part of the problem is that people are not taught to think critically.

In addition to that, we have many younger people (at least, younger than you and I) who seem to have the impression that all popes are going to be didactic. John Paul 2 and Benedict 16 were both from academia; John Paul, with a PhD in Theology and another one in Philosophy blessed us with Theology of the Body using the humanistic and phenomenological approaches to the matter; and Benedict has blessed us with many theological works.

Now we have a pope who is not from academaia, but rather, if you will, from the “streets”; not that he is less intellectually capable; but rather, that he has a much different style.

Rather than being didactic, he is hortatory. He is trying to light a fire under Catholics; not to ignore doctrine or morals, but rather to live out the Gospel. And for those who wish to continue to approach our faith from an intellectual viewpoint, they are going to have problems with this pope as he is not going to give them dissertations. It will be more like marching orders.

Each style has its purpose and time. The Holy Spirit still guides the Church, and the Holy Spirit clearly wanted this approach at this time. A point seemingly forgotten in the inability to see the change that has occurred.

Salvation is not about doctrine; doctrine is about salvation. Salvation is not about morals; morals are about salvation. Salvation is about our encounter with Christ, and how we respond. And that is a whole lot of what this Pope is saying.

Nice touch OTJM…salvation is not about doctrine etc… reminds me of a certain Nazarene’s quote…something like humanity is not about the sabbath, the sabatth is about humanity. I think you are “bang-on” with your assessment…and I agree with you totally on the change that has happened…not a change in who we are as catholics but a call to apply our catholicism in a certain way that is prompted this pope by the Spirit … it is important and I hope we don’t loose too much time sweating the small stuff…

Bruce
Trickster.

 

[trickster]

I believe we’re truly blessed to have both Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI and Pope Francis at the same time. The Holy Spirit guides the Church. Each Pope, being human, will have a unique personality. I can’t compare one to the other and say I “like” one better … They are both awesome, and both were given to the Church by Divine Providence!

…

the phoenix… I agree with you 100%…

 

[trickster]

Just my opinion, but I fail to find much traditional and somethings that are not even particularly Catholic in my brothers and sisters claiming to be “traditional Catholics”.

Really neofight. I would be interested on your take on this one. I know that traditionalist can range from the SPPX (I think that is the acronym) to traditionalist within the roman rite. The way I understand traditionalist is that they are more comfortable with long-standing tradition of which many grew up with prior to Vatican II and younger people find the clarity of a “black and white” a “thou shall and thou shall not” a spiritually more refreshing approach than a grey world.

I am not a traditionalist, but I worry that they are creating a self-imposed isolation under Francis which I think is {“them cheating themselves”…I am very happy with this new pope and I love Benedict too and JP II, I, Paul VI, John XXIII and Pius XII all popes during my life so far. They, are all chosen by the Holy spirit for a time, place and job that needs to be done by those of us living now…and I want an inclusive church…a church with a strong foundation but a heart of love…and I think we are moving that way.

I think what Francis is saying is supportive of the tradtiionalist movement too…so not sure why there is so much discussion on styles of two popes…it is great though we live in a historical period such as it is… I enjoy the unfolding of time and revelation

Cheerz

bruce
trickster

 

[trickster]

And I assure you that they would say the same about their brothers and sisters claiming to be “liberal Catholics” - or any Catholic - no matter what qualifying label you slap on them.

It’s called Original Sin.

I hope your user name isn’t an indication of more provoking posts. When you post something like what you have written, you are bound to step on toes. FYI - in case you don’t already know.

Hi Lormar, how do you get “original sin” out of what the poster said? You lost me on that one

bruce
trickster

 

[trickster]

I don’t think I’ve had anyone sum up this issue as well as you just did. Many people will say “The last two popes were scholars,” but that doesn’t mean much.

Thank you for your clear, charitable commentary.

Exactly… but to minimize the last two popes as just scholars I don’t think was the intent of the writer…i just know being a regular catholic and a catholic who has had some academi studies at a theology school, the poster is right in about a disciplinary approach to things…and critical analysis is a part of that training that academics get that most of us don’t…most of us go by what is in our heart, what makes sense and move from that pragmatic place of living in the world…we tolerate, love and accept the pain of people without banging theology on people’s head…

Something like that

Bruce
trickster

 

[trickster]

I think part of the difficulty with the “marching orders” approach is that the people who have spent a significant portion of their lives, time or money in fields like pro-life work feel alienated by Francis. The thought is, “He wants us to live the Gospel? Uh… I thought we’ve been trying to do that the whole time…” It’s like a betrayal. It’s not just, “Live the Gospel,” but the way it is talked about makes it seem like people who have done pro-life work have been doing a ****** job at that the whole time, all the while, 'Yeehaw, poor people!"

It feels like the Pope is stomping on pro-life workers while at the same time having a dance party with people who do work with the poor.

Youngtraditionalcatholic… I am sorry that you feel that way… .I have noted your writing over the years and I know that you have attached very much to JP II and Benedict; my list of popes goes back to Pius XII! So I have seen and experience a lot of dynamic beautiful moves of the church that does not fit dogma…the church is not an institution, it is not a govenment, it is a faith that is led by the leading of the Holy Spirit; imagine how much problems pre-vatican II Catholics had with the Vatican II implementations I remember and lived those changes; for me it was hard to experience a church moving back towards the traditional model that I left in the 70’s for a more Vatican II reality, so Benedict was a bit hard for me; but as JReduction pointed out too that Benedict himself slowed down this traditionalist movement as it started to reject the post-vatican II mass,etc. - any human movement is finite and limited as was the progressive movement int he 60-70’s and the “return to basics” of JP II in the 80’s onwards…Benedict really tried to move towards balancing a diverse church and a church that allows and loves those of us who are progressive and those of us who are traditinalist…you and I maybe on the opposite sides of the spectrum in the church…BUT you and I are both in the same family…we can have fun family arguemetns.

Your postings points out exactly what I am worried about…I don’t want you to feel alienated cause the pro-life movement is one of the most important things we can do as catholics… no doubt… I think Francis was trying to address the pride issues, the dogmatism danger that can lead to not listening to the opposition; to start seeing pro-choice people as the devil incarnate and so forth…pro-choice people are honourable people who are dedicated to their understandign of the issues, female power over their reproductive rights is a very important field too…and those arguement need to be treated with respect and love … .you know… in the full story of the gospel…again Jesus himself showed us or told us stories about what Francis is saying…

So, continue your work in the pro-life movement, be assured that we as catholics are at your back and stop feeling isolated by this pope, embrace the vision he has put before us all…

Cheers young catholic, cheerz

Trickster
Bruce Ferguson

 

[Saints_Alive]

I just wish people would quit posting articles from secular news sites. We have reputable sites such as Catholic News Service, Zenit, National Catholic Register, and Catholic News Agency.

 

[trickster]

1. His approach wasn’t “Do this INSTEAD of that”, but “Don’t do ONLY that”
2. His approach wasn’t “Don’t do this anymore”, but “Don’t forget to put everything in perspective, so that others can understand why you’re right”.

Again, let’s remember what he said:
“We cannot insist **only **on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods. // But when we speak about these issues, we have to talk about them in a context. The teaching of the church, for that matter, is clear and I am a son of the church, but it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time. Proclamation in a missionary style focuses on the essentials, on the necessary things: this is also what fascinates and attracts more, what makes the heart burn, as it did for the disciples at Emmaus. // The church sometimes has locked itself up in small things, in small-minded rules. The most important thing is the first proclamation: Jesus Christ has saved you. And the ministers of the church must be ministers of mercy above all."

This article reminds us that Benedict XVI said the same things in 2006. Here’s the whole quote:

I agree with you 100% vames…right on…

 

[trickster]

Jesus used to bait the Pharisees just as the pope is doing with the press. One thing this has brought out is how poorly news people research . Makes you wonder how accurate other news is. Francis just like Jesus is reaching out to sinners (woman at the well?)

Exactly! Thanks hadulzo for that insight… you are correct, absolutely… he also said to the woman prositute the “context of our policies”…"go and sin no more’…sometimes we focus on that part of the formula and not the part where Jesus refused to throw a rock… hmmm…

Thanks

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster

 

[trickster]

Pope Francis has wanted to keep the Church balanced. Two, or three issues, have been overshadowing all the rest for a time. It’s not that these aren’t important. They are. It’s just that some people seemed to think the Church was only tending to those, since those matters were all many of us talked about.

Pope Francis was reminding us that we have a responsibility to ALL the issues, not to forget about poverty, and all the others.

For pro-life workers, he has come out and said abortion is a product of a “throw-away” culture. I hope the pro-lifers will continue with all your good work.

It’s just that there are people in poverty, and other things, that also have their place. In fact, perhaps divorce, abortion, certain crimes, and such may even have at least part of its roots related to other problems…such as poverty.

I agree Clearwater… you have said it so much more effective than what I tried to share…

bruce
trickster

 

[trickster]

I just wish people would quit posting articles from secular news sites. We have reputable sites such as Catholic News Service, Zenit, National Catholic Register, and Catholic News Agency.

ah, but Saints Alive… .can you elaborate on your “wish”? I normally don’t post articles … but i thought this article was worth posting as it observed alot of dynamics and those dynamics need to be addressed… I see your point though in terms of articles - who by the virtue of the writer - will be automatically biased and based on dogma of another sort… and not conducive to discussion or reflection… I agree with you on that… but again I was very impressed with this writer.

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster

 

[trickster]

I’m a traditionalist and I have no problem with Pope Francis. Sure I have things I feel called to which are not the norm in the Church today but that’s just me. To be honest I pay very little to no attention to all of this Pope Francis hoopla. I just pray for him since his position is one I do not envy.

Hi Credo in Deum… I am curious about what you say about being called to things that are “not norm” in the church…what do you mean by that? What do you mean by the hoopla I would take it that you mean public reaction to the style of Francis? Is that where you are coming from?

I personally - from a progressive perspective - believe that the Holy Spirit guides us in our unique ways…I would think that ‘not norm’ would in fact be very normal for Catholics following the spirit…I too am called to a “not norm” calling and that is the development of aboriginal theological frameworks to put indigenous spirituality in conversation with catholicism…so I am interested in your sense.

Trickster
Bruce Ferguson

 

[Trueca]

I understand “Don’t forget to put everything in perspective”, but this I what I say to my friends who don’t care about the killing of innocents, but only talk about “helping the poor” all the time and consequently support the government give them more and more handouts. I tell them, we should go and evangelize them at the same time, just like Jesus did. he did not came to feed the poor, but to give the bread and water of Life. I explain if you have God inside you, then you can endure and/or live a life of dignity and point to the book “The Hiding Place”. Also, when Pope Francis talks about the poor, he really means “the poor”, not the people in USA who we call “poor” but are not. Totally different. Anyway, his admonition to pro-lifers to evangelize too (which they do), should also go to those who always scream “the poor, the poor”

 

[trickster]

I think you have to understand him in context. He comes from a continent that is not as prosperous as the US, where there is much poverty, people living in favelas, and in his own country in fairly recent memory, persecution, kidnapping and murdering of political opponents (which it appears he played a large role in smuggling people out of Argentina to safety); there were also brutal dictatorships in other neighbouring countries, namely Chile (Pinochet) and Paraguay (Stroessner) . In many places in South America, for many people the most important priority is simply getting enough to eat on a daily basis.

In Western Europe, and in Canada, the abortion fight has largely been lost, alas, and there appears to be little stomach to re-open any discussion of the issue at the political level. The US is thus a bit unique in that regard, in that the debate still shapes your political landscape. In Canada our Conservative government before being elected promised to raise the issue but once in power, realized it was a hot-potato and didn’t want to tackle it for fear of alienating voters. If the Tories won’t take it on, the parties to the left surely won’t, so basically the fight is dead. I think the same in Western Europe, where most countries are governed by coalition governments.

So I don’t think he’s stomping on the pro-life workers as much as raising the flag and saying that there are other pressing social concerns that need to be addressed.

EXCELLENT response Oralabora! I like the indepthness in which you shared with YoungTraditionalCatholic… and like I said, even though in Canada it is a done deal more or less, we need to ensure that there is the presence of a voice at least now of moderation… I would like to counter the pro-choice strength in Canada with a common sense strategy that provides all the information to women in making the choice for or against abortion…and that does not seem to be happening…

Just a side question to you… I live in Vancouver, BC…so do you think that the medical profession in Canada is providing equal information on the choices and options available for women to make decisions over their reproductive rights? My sense is that the choice of abortion is what most doctors recommend; sort of like the fact that doctors tend to over-prescribe…your thoughts as a fellow Canadian catholic would be appreciated…

Bruce Ferguson
Trickster