The Horror: This is Why Catholic Traditionalist Fear Pope Francis

  • Thread starter Thread starter trickster
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I just want to address what I said before about the pope being right and we being wrong.

The Franciscan school is very simple, to the point that most Catholics don’t understand it and take it to be something that it’s not.

Francis admonished his sons and daughters to discern when something is a sin. Obviously, we do not obey sin, follow sin, repeat sin, endorse sin, etc. However, in his admonitions, he also tells us that even when the superior commands sin, we may not criticize him, judge him or walk away from him. We must stand closer to him in fraternal charity. Getting into conflicts with authority, because authority is wrong, is actually contrary to the Franciscan ideal of fraternity. One can refuse to obey sin without creating a scene and without making the superior, bishop or pope look badly. Doing so is a sin of its own. Obviously, there are Franciscans who have done just this. They are wrong in doing so. It is contrary to what we were founded to be. We were founded to be a family, not an institution governed by cold rationalism. That’s the first part that must be understood here.

The second part that we ask that you (laymen, religious and clergy) understand is how we view the papacy. You don’t have to view it as we do. Though it is our sincere hope that you would do so, because it would bring unity and peace to the Church.

It is contrary to our tradition to sit around making finer distinctions between the pope’s opinions, the ordinary magisterium and the extraordinary magisterium. Francis was a very profound man who looked to see things in their most fundamental form. The pope is the Vicar of Christ and the Successor of St. Peter. He is also the temporal ruler of the Church. He exercises legitimate authority not only in matters of faith and morals, but also in temporal matters regarding the Church. By virtue of his office, he is a person of authority.

Unless the pope preaches heresy, we assent to his opinions, rules, directions and teachings. Such an assent is born out of love for the Lord Jesus Christ, whose Vicar is the pope and out of obedience to our holy father St. Francis who commanded that his brothers obey him for all eternity and who promised that he in turn would obey the pope. In simple language, whatever Francis obeys, a good Franciscan obeys. Francis is the master teacher in holiness. He is the Seraphic Father whom God has given to us as the model of Christian virtue and Catholic fidelity. If we want to reach the heights of sanctity that Francis reached, then we follow his lead. Again, there are Franciscans who believe that such thinking is Medieval. They are right. It does go back to the Middle Ages. However, what they propose, an obedience based on critical thinking, has only hurt the spiritual life of Franciscans and the people we serve. Such critical thinking would be ideal if the person doing the thinking were given some grace over and above that of the pope. There have been very few such people in history.

Finally, as many of you know, about 25 years ago, there began in NY a renewal of the Franciscan family and another renewal in Italy. They came to be known as the Franciscans of the Renewal and Franciscans of the Immaculate. One of the most important qualities of the renewal movement is obedience and submission.

This movement is spreading like wildfire among Franciscan men. Unfortunately, it does not seem to be having the same impact among Franciscan women, but that’s for another discussion. Our position can best be exemplified by the recent discussion between the Franciscans of the Immaculate and the Holy See regarding the EF. The Friars have publicly said that they accept with great joy whatever the Holy Father asks of them. They have said that they agree with what the Holy Father asks of them. They have stated, in rather stern terms, that everyone else is to mind their own business and stay out of Franciscan affairs.

This way of thinking is not unique to the FI. It is part of Franciscan tradition and goes back to St. Francis himself. After Vatican II, it was laid aside. As I said, some thought it was Medieval and they were right. What they did not realize was that it has worked for eight centuries.

Over the last 800 years, the Franciscan family has grown more than any other family in the Church. There have been many internal conflicts over interpretations of the rule. There have been conflicts over questions that arise due to time and place, but Francis never anticipated. Therefore, we have not known which way to go. In every single one of those situations, it has always been the popes who have come to the rescue of the Franciscan order.

As a result of this relationship with the popes, St. Francis’ admonitions regarding authority, our desire to be like Francis, and the realization that we must go back to our roots, we take the position that unless the pope speaks heresy, we agree with whatever he says. We put distance between our personal opinions and ourselves.

Such distance is healthy. It is part of being poor. Poverty begins with detachment from material things and places. But the man who remains attached to his opinion, his point of view, and his wishes, runs the risk of becoming his own god. Real poverty surrenders to legitimate authority, even when that authority does not require it. We surrender out of respect for the office and out of charity for the person who occupies the office. We surrender because it is pleasing to God that we do as the Apostles did, remain quiet and let Christ speak.

The easiest way of reminding ourselves to keep our big mouths shut and our opinions to ourselves is simply to remind ourselves of what St. Francis often said to himself. “He’s the pope. I’m not. He’s right and I’m despicable.” It does not hurt to put ourselves in our place once in a while.

If asked an academic question about what the pope said, we’ll answer.
 
Why must we specify who’s mass is correct or isn’t. I personally never cared for all the “modern masses” that have frankly lost all the mystery and cache of the Latin Mass. If there are those who prefer that mass to all the guitars, drums and vocals; so be it. I never thought that mass should be trying to gain a popular audience like Idol.
 
Why must we specify who’s mass is correct or isn’t. I personally never cared for all the “modern masses” that have frankly lost all the mystery and cache of the Latin Mass. If there are those who prefer that mass to all the guitars, drums and vocals; so be it. I never thought that mass should be trying to gain a popular audience like Idol.
What does this have to do with Pope Francis?
 
Part of the thread, I believe earlier on worried that the Pope would be limiting the traditional mass. I believe that was a media misinterpretation myself. I believe he is trying to be inclusive.
 
I’m actually scandalized with all the negative reactions to Pope Francis’ interview.
 
I’m actually scandalized with all the negative reactions to Pope Francis’ interview.
This is what I like about St. Francis. His reaction to the interview would be 🤷

What we have done in my community is very simple. The superior has taken almost everything that Pope Francis has said, which is quite a bit, given it to the novices to read and highlight that which directly affects how we live religious life and how we serve the Church. It’s a good exercise for the novices and it’s good for us as a community. It helps us focus on what’s before us.

On Monday night we had our community meeting. The results were distributed. The grand total of what the Holy Father has said that applies directly to the Franciscan Brothers of Life and their ministry consists of 1 1/2 pages double spaced.

The rest, has nothing to do with us, our faith or our daily life or there is nothing new in it. By the end of the community meeting, everyone looked at the superior who said, 🤷

Everyone is now at their respective houses and in bed, except me. That’s because I’m trying to tidy up my thoughts for tomorrow.
 
Does he hold out the offer of love and compassion for those who seem to deserve righteous judgment and condemnation? Yep. And that can seem pretty ambigiuous whether you read it in John 8 or an American Magazine.

Does Francis act humbly? Gentle and humble in heart? I think so.

Does he make pretences and get about in long robes demanding respectful greetings in the market places and places of honor at banquets. Not as far as I can tell.

Sounds like a traditionalist to me. 👍

“…We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods”

Note the bold word.

We do insist on many things.
 
This is what I like about St. Francis. His reaction to the interview would be 🤷

What we have done in my community is very simple. The superior has taken almost everything that Pope Francis has said, which is quite a bit, given it to the novices to read and highlight that which directly affects how we live religious life and how we serve the Church. It’s a good exercise for the novices and it’s good for us as a community. It helps us focus on what’s before us.

On Monday night we had our community meeting. The results were distributed. The grand total of what the Holy Father has said that applies directly to the Franciscan Brothers of Life and their ministry consists of 1 1/2 pages double spaced.

The rest, has nothing to do with us, our faith or our daily life or there is nothing new in it. By the end of the community meeting, everyone looked at the superior who said, 🤷

Everyone is now at their respective houses and in bed, except me. That’s because I’m trying to tidy up my thoughts for tomorrow.
This is not the place for tidying up thoughts. 😛

I read the interview for the 5th time, and I still can’t see source of all the negative reactions.
 
Now is this not the very definition of rash judgement that Church doctrine warns about? You are presuming that those who raise concerns on the language style in interviews have issues with actual content. Is that a judgement you can make about another? Why not simply engage in the discussion on the level of what is been discussed rather than assume what you do not know?

On the matter of carefully weighing his words, did he weigh in the reaction by NARAL for an example as a possibility?

I think the entire reason why these threads tend to get hostile is because you and many others as you said engage in rash judgement of those who raise valid concerns on the language style in interviews.
Rash judgement? Nonsense. Just read what is out there about the Holy Father’s interview. It’s very distressing.

If the Pope has to worry about what groups and media outlets are going to twist his words then he may as well shut up and never say anything.

Where you out there telling Pope Benedict to shut up when the media was twisting his words on condoms? Can you point me to posts you’ve written about Pope Benedict’s words being twisted out of context by the media and advising him to be more careful about how he speaks?

And you wonder where I get this sense that it isn’t how he said it, but what he said that is causing some people so much distress?
 
Rash judgement? Nonsense. Just read what is out there about the Holy Father’s interview. It’s very distressing.

If the Pope has to worry about what groups and media outlets are going to twist his words then he may as well shut up and never say anything.

Where you out there telling Pope Benedict to shut up when the media was twisting his words on condoms? Can you point me to posts you’ve written about Pope Benedict’s words being twisted out of context by the media and advising him to be more careful about how he speaks?

And you wonder where I get this sense that it isn’t how he said it, but what he said that is causing some people so much distress?
I think you are speaking about something else.

I was suggesting that you have engaged in rash judgement by concluding people like us are criticizing the interview style of Pope Francis with ulterior motives. You do not even know me and yet you have presumed how I reacted to the Pope Benedict XVI and his Condom comments. So last time I checked, that constitutes as rash judgement. You should stick to the discussion or not participate in it rather than stipulate what ulterior motives the ones who engage in the discussion may have. The topic of the discussion is not our ulterior motives, after all.
 
I just want to address what I said before about the pope being right and we being wrong.

The Franciscan school is very simple, to the point that most Catholics don’t understand it and take it to be something that it’s not.

Francis admonished his sons and daughters to discern when something is a sin. Obviously, we do not obey sin, follow sin, repeat sin, endorse sin, etc. However, in his admonitions, he also tells us that even when the superior commands sin, we may not criticize him, judge him or walk away from him. We must stand closer to him in fraternal charity. Getting into conflicts with authority, because authority is wrong, is actually contrary to the Franciscan ideal of fraternity. One can refuse to obey sin without creating a scene and without making the superior, bishop or pope look badly. Doing so is a sin of its own. Obviously, there are Franciscans who have done just this. They are wrong in doing so. It is contrary to what we were founded to be. We were founded to be a family, not an institution governed by cold rationalism. That’s the first part that must be understood here.

The second part that we ask that you (laymen, religious and clergy) understand is how we view the papacy. You don’t have to view it as we do. Though it is our sincere hope that you would do so, because it would bring unity and peace to the Church.

It is contrary to our tradition to sit around making finer distinctions between the pope’s opinions, the ordinary magisterium and the extraordinary magisterium.



If asked an academic question about what the pope said, we’ll answer.
I think the problem here is that you cannot expect lay persons who have not taken a vow as you have to act in the same way when there is good evidence to the contrary.

As I said, Pope Honorious and his decisions is a case that sticks out in the history of the Church like a sore thumb. So it is not possible for a lay Catholic to just say they will trust in the Pope to always make the right decision. That would be unreasonable in light of historical evidence.

From a lay person perspective, it is legitimate to therefore raise concerns. The father/authority may then evaluate the concerns and decide whether he is going to ignore them but that decision has not been taken.

On a different note, there is no issue here of obedience. There is nothing to obey when one cannot even clearly infer what was said. Even if one could clearly infer what was said, it is an interview so one cannot take it as a Papal decree or command. What one can decide is if the language is ambiguous and whether it lends itself to misinterpretation and misrepresentation. To that degree, the evidence clearly affirms it.
 
I think it is safe to say that for any person who is not well catechized, the interview reads as if God’s love and mercy are in contention with Doctrine, Dogma, Moral laws and disciplines.
Precisely. And most Catholics today are not well catechized. Combine that with the ignorance of the secular media (especially with regard to Church terms & context), and the preference for sensationalism within the media (which distorts and even contradicts content), and we have what we now see: permutations of misinformation and disinformation.
 
Does he hold out the offer of love and compassion for those who seem to deserve righteous judgment and condemnation? Yep. And that can seem pretty ambigiuous whether you read it in John 8 or an American Magazine.

Does Francis act humbly? Gentle and humble in heart? I think so.

Does he make pretences and get about in long robes demanding respectful greetings in the market places and places of honor at banquets. Not as far as I can tell.

Sounds like a traditionalist to me. 👍

"…We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods"

Note the bold word.

We do insist on many things.
The problem with the interview does not have to do with one sentence. It is the entire tone of the interview. That tone suggests that there is a battle between God’s mercy and love vs. Dogma, Doctrine, Moral law and Discipline. When one reads that line and many others with that tone of mind, then its more correct to interpret it as the media had done rather than as you want it to be interpreted.

On the matter of Scripture, it is an accepted fact that Scripture is ambiguous. That is why the Church is the final interpreter of Scripture. If the Church herself starts sounding ambiguous, it becomes a bad thing. So your comparison of the Church with Scripture is flawed in that way.
 
What one can decide is if the language is ambiguous and whether it lends itself to misinterpretation and misrepresentation. To that degree, the evidence clearly affirms it.
In your opinion. Not everyone’s.
 
If the Tories won’t take it on, the parties to the left surely won’t, so basically the fight is dead. I think the same in Western Europe, where most countries are governed by coalition governments.
Well our Prime Minister is a neoliberal first and foremost. He has never been a moralist. He’s an economist.

At the same time, I respect the Americans who actually are working hard to prevent these important issues from being thrown to the side of the social and political curb. I do think capitulation to popular trends like these (e.g. abortion and homosexualization) are dangerous as they just breed another set of more radical policies and degradations in their wake. These issues are talking about the singular value and dignity of the human person as such and human life generally. Anyone who studies history knows what happens when a culture devaluates the human person or human life and where it tends to go. Human life is sacred - period. Even an agnostic or atheistic secularist who has studied history realizes the importance of this belief and will often agree with it in principle or practice: i.e., that human life must at least be treated as sacred.

Secondly, *qua *citizen of your country, anyone can and should fight against things like abortion or a culture that misrepresents the purpose and meaning of human sexuality, as this tends to the reduction and degradation of the human person and especially of women. You simply do not need the Catholic Church to tell you that these things are wrong and dangerous or need a license from the Pope to fight against these evils; but that you know that they are problematic and dangerous and tend for the worse is already a credit to the Church, of course. Most people are firstly overwhelmed by sophistical arguments, consequently confused and finally submit to the popular trend especially if failure to do so results in marginalization or any other social penalty.
 
In your opinion. Not everyone’s.
Yes, and judging by what we see from the media, it seems like the correct opinion. There are far many articles that twists the words of the Pope. There are also far many Catholics on both sides of the issue that understood the Pope that way. Even Catholic.com has such an article here

catholic.com/blog/todd-aglialoro/an-opportunity-missed

So this idea that “its all in your head” is not really a valid argument, if that is what you are trying to say.
 
I must admit that I do see some merit in the words of TimothyH and JReducation.

In a sense, the Holy father is a father figure to us. We, although adults in age, are spiritual children of the Church under the guidance of the Holy father. This suggests that we can get some insight on what our behavior should be from the family model.

In a family, it would seem reasonable that the children trust the judgement of their parents in both knowledge and decision making. Now there is of course evidence that parents do make bad decisions. But that does not give the children reason to not obey or respect their judgement once they have decided on it with finality. It would be unreasonable to suggest that children simply rebel against their parents when until they are convinced that the judgement of the parents is correct. At the same time, it also requires that children initially speak up raising the concerns regarding a particular decision/judgement. The parent will then take it in to account and finalize the decision at which point the child must surrender.

Applying this here, we are still children and the Pope, our spiritual father, has made known his style of language in an implicit way. We can indeed raise concerns about this style since we see confusion among many and some taking advantage of it to incorrectly portray his teachings.

So it seems reasonable to raise objections at this stage. If the Pope says, I understand your concerns but I am going to roll with my style, then yes, the discussion is over and we must obey and respect his decision. But that has not happened yet. One can therefore respectfully raise concerns about the language style.

At the end of the day, we are not looking to disobey or disrespect. We are looking to understand or raise concerns to our spiritual father. When done in that spirit, I think it can be helpful to both parties. The Pope himself can make an informed decision and we ourselves can grow in understanding.

In a forum thread like this, there is obviously not going to be an informing of the Holy father. So these threads can be seen as discussions of spiritual children about what they find troubling. They comfort each other by pin-pointing what they see as the problem. Identifying the problem that causes distress can be very relieving (because then one knows its not something worse).

Therefore I think there is some merit to their arguments. But I also think they fail to take in to account that intermediate stage where its possible to raise concerns for the betterment of our spiritual father as well as the spiritual children.
I have a great respect for JR… and my brother Tim has always been a great sparing partner in dialogue…so I love hearing what he has to say; don`t always agree, but he will attest that I have always respected differences…

I personally dont buy the family model; yes, of course, it is a good example.. but I believe we are all equal in Christ and we have been assigned to different roles and jobs; without me doing Gods will, it affects other creatures in the whole (holiness) of God…so I believe in speaking my conscience, but I too defer the last word to the Holy Father…we can disagree but we cannot divide our faith community…and I think that is all the church is asking of us…

Trickster.
 
The arrogance on these threads lately is breathtaking.

That so many laymen would presume to question any Pope’s teaching on so many things, let alone question a man with his qualifications, is simply spectacular to me. How it is all couched as some abstract difference with the man’s “interview style” leaves me wondering what fantasy world some here live in. There was a time when everybody loved the Pope, a more traditional time when no one would dare question his teaching. We hadn’t yet become so arrogant and sure of ourselves.

I know Cisco engineers and database administrators with fewer qualifications in their respective field who command more respect when they speak than some of you give this man. We give more respect to college football coaches.

No one is perfect but the man’s qualifications and experience alone, not to mention the fact that he is the Vicar of Christ on earth, commands enough respect that we shut our mouths and L-I-S-T-E-N when he speaks.

No matter how bad it gets here on the Traditional Catholicism forum, it pales in comparison to what some are saying in the philosophy forum. They absolutely win the prize.

-Tim-
Tim are you talking about this particular threads, or the threads in Catholic Answers generally, cause I am not getting that anyone is questioning the pope words; we all love Francis, Benedict, and can personally go back to Pius XII… I think what we are saying is that dialogue, conversation and respectful disagreement with the pope is not heresy…it is only when the pope speaks infallibiltity that we are bound to obey…if that makes sense…we engage with the popes thinking…the catholics of before did not have the education and exposure to mass and social media that we have today so our minds have more to think about, sort out and reflect upon…now more than ever is a dialogue with our Holy Father is needed, never has it been more important to talk to the Holy Father about ideas; not just the holy father but all of our shepherds, clergy, fellow laypeople and so forth…I am not getting or feeling what you are percieving…on this one…
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top