The Immaculate Conception

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jrgiancola said:
Marco, you are correct. The Orthodox Church kept what was true from the RCC, such as the seven sacraments, the trinity, and many of the core and key doctrines of Christianity, the majority of which were formulated by the church fathers. Of course, the trinity can NOT really be PROVEN, but the New Testament does seem to present God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, co-equal persons and most Christian churches have believed this for 2000 years. The Orthodox Church is not all that different from the RCC. But the RCC has added many additional dogmas and doctrines since before the end of the first millennium which Orthodoxy has rejected.
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I am not arguing that the Trinity is not sound doctrine. But I don’t think this answers the question. On what basis do you distinguish that doctrines the Orthodox accept are “proven” and that Catholic doctrines are not. The only rationale you give here is that “Orthodoxy has rejected.” In all honesty, your only “proof” is to say a doctrine is false “because Orthodoxy says so.”

But on the contrary, if you take the time to delve into the actual theology behind “Catholic vs. Orthodox” doctrines, you will find that Orthodoxy embraces the heart of many so-called “Catholic doctrines,” such as Purgatory. Even St. Mark of Ephesus, arguing against Purgatory at the Council of Florence admitted souls need to be cleansed after death. He only had a problem with the peripheral, non-dogmatic aspect of painful “fire” associated with the teaching.
 
jrgiancola said:
That’s another reason I left the RCC: no options are given the believer.
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If I may offer some advice, do not judge the truth of something on whether or not you get “options.” The Orthodox don’t offer “options” in the way of God being 3 persons. And rightly they should. You can’t be a valid Orthodox Christian and have the “option” to believe God is 8 persons. So whether or not you get “options” on a belief is an irrelevant measure as to whether it’s true.
 
Debate about the IC as RC dogma would fall under Theologuemena. . .
 
I left the RCC because I simply could never believe many of its teachings. One should be able to believe the teachings of one’s church, or one should find another church.

I find that Orthodoxy believes what I have always believed, for example, there is no purgatory. Christ’s sacrifice is all-redeeming; sins are either forgiven or not forgiven; for the believer, sins are forgiven. To say that some additional cleansing is necessary, implies that Christ’s sacrifice was not sufficient. You can add a lot of theological mumbo jumbo, but I have discovered over the years that anyone can find some passage that can be twisted into supporting his or her belief in something. David loved Jonathan more than he loved any woman. That could easily be twisted into proof that David and Jonathan were physical lovers as well.

I cannot accept the filioque since the councils of Trent and Ephesus forbade any additions to the creed. I cannot accept that abortion is immoral when it is used to save the life of the mother. I cannot believe that masturbation and artificial contraception are sins, and that sex between man and wife is only for procreation. I cannot believe that homosexuality is “an inherent moral evil” as the current bishop of Rome has stated.

I cannot believe that the Holy Spirit led the RCC to conduct the Crusades and the Inquisitions. Murder in the name of Christ is abhorrent to God.

Frankly, I do not trust anything that came from Rome for the last 1000 years. Only JPII is the exception. I believe he is a saint and that he tried his best to prevent the coming apostasy of the RCC. We were blessed to have him in our midst, but the RCC has learned nothing from him.

My distrust for the RCC is so great, that I can never be a member of that church again. I have found peace in Orthodoxy, and I truly believe God is there, and that it is His true church on earth.

For the proofs that you seek, check out the website of the Greek Orthodox Church: goarch.com. It explains all of our doctrines and the reasons for them, much as this website serves the RCC. You might find it quite interesting.
 
Huiou, once again you write too far above my level of understanding. People often do this when they themselves really do not know what they are talking about. I’m not saying that is true for you, but you might want to consider it. For me, Christianity is simple. God sent His only begotten Son to be a sacrifice for all mankind, to take upon Himself the sins of the entire world, to pay the penalty that we should have paid for violating His law. In so doing, Christ satisfied The Father’s need for justice and opened the door for our Father to show His love and mercy to us. All we need do to receive this mercy and His pardon is to love God with our whole hearts, minds, souls and spirits, and love our neighbors and ourselves. Christ gave us so many examples of ways to do this in our every day lives. This is the core and crux of Christianity. Everything else is subordinate to this fundamental truth, and much of it is inconsequential. The only really important thing that separates us from the Protestants is that they have abandoned the seven sacraments, particularly the Eucharist. It’s their loss and I feel sorry for them; they have no idea how wonderful it is to take the body and blood of Christ. Mary is our True Mother; when Christ gave her to John, He symbolically gave her to all of us. But let’s not make her a divinity. I do not believe she has ever desired that status.
 
First of all, regarding purgatory, you seem to have a poor understanding of what purgatory is. First of all, yes, sins are either forgiven or not forgiven. Repented or unrepented. After death, nothing can save a person from unrepented mortal sin. However, nothing unclean shall enter heaven. And so, this is where purgatory comes into play. To deny purgatory would be to say that many people enter heaven unclean. Purgatory is in essence purification. For afterwards, though the guilt of sin is gone, there is still reparation for the damage of sin. I hope you believe that all sins carry their own damages. Purgatory is where one slowly takes away that punishment by temporary suffering. Why else would the early Church pray for the dead?

Second, regarding creeds, I am surprised at your inflexibility with the creation of creeds. The reason why creeds were created was to confess a certain faith. This means that as the faith grows and is better understood, more things are added. Also, creeds also served another purpose. They fought heresy by directly saying what the true beliefs are. Additions to the creed are allowed if accepted by the Pope and the bishops.

Third, your attitude to our view of life is something I can’t completely remark on but… The reason why abortion is a moral evil even if done to save the mother is because it is the killing of an innocent life. It isn’t permissible to murder under other circumstances. Why must this case be different? Is it because it’s just a baby? Masturbation and contraception deliberately frustrate the understanding and sanctity of human sexuality.

Human sexuality is procreative and unitive. It is designed to bring more souls here on Earth for the propagation of Christ’s Kingdom as well as the physical expression of love. Yes, the children themselves are the result of this freely given love to each other. Masturbation (does not even unite oneself to another) and contraception (separates the procreative and unitive aspects) are immoral. Let’s be honest, why is there such a strong amount of feelings for sexuality? Scientifically speaking, our bodies were designed like this so that we would have motivations to have sex. And the purpose of sex is…?

At the same time, this is the reason why homosexuality is an ‘inherent moral evil’. Homosexuality is a perverted love. A love that cannot do what sexuality was designed to do. The creation of children. Also, I believe you’re familiar with Sodom and Gomorrah? How about Leviticus 18:22? Romans 1:26-28? As you can see, homosexuality is condemned in the Bible.

I believe truly that Blessed John Paul II was certainly a good man on Earth. However, I also honor Pope Benedict XVI for continuing the work of his predecessors. I hope I may be proven wrong but I have this observation about you… I notice that if the doctrine doesn’t seem to square with your thinking, you reject it. I’m concerned… that’s all.
 
Raphael, you’re entitled to your beliefs; so am I. You’re entitled to accept RCC teachings; I reject them and, rather, accept Orthodox Christian teachings. We live in a country that permits freedom of religious choice. I’m exercising that freedom as you are. Orthodox Christianity also accepts artificial contraception and artificial insemination between husband and wife; we also reject the primacy and infallibility of the pope. I’m sure you disagree with these also. Don’t waste your time; you will never convince me that RCC teachings are true. I’ve been a catholic for 58 years; I’ve heard all the arguments. You have nothing new to add. I believe my new church is the one true church that Christ established.

Marco, the Orthodox Christian Church does NOT accept the doctrine of purgatory; and neither do I.

Marco, if you want to understand my beliefs further, this is the 236th post from me. Feel free to read the previous 235 posts that I have written. I’ve expressed my views openly on practically every subject. My beliefs have not changed in any way since I became an Orthodox Christian.👍
 
Addendum to Raphael:

A person does not really belong to a church if he or she does not believe what it teaches. If I believed all the garbage I hear from Jimmy Swaggart, I would join his church. If I did not believe Jesus is the Messiah-Christ promised by God, I would convert to Judaism.

I now believe the Orthodox Christian Church is the true church because it contains what I feel the Holy Spirit has taught me over the years. If you truly believe all of the RCC teachings then you should remain a member of the RCC.

Why should anyone stay in a church if he or she cannot believe what that church believes?

I feel my beliefs are in accordance with the New Testament, particularly with the teachings and examples of Jesus. You may read the New Testament and arrive at totally different conclusions. That’s one reason why there are so many different Christian churches and denominations. Many Christian churches accept abortion for other reasons. You should do an online search as I did; you might be very surprised.

Just because the RCC says “Outside of the RCC there is no salvation,” does not make it true. I can’t believe some of the anti-catholic things I’ve read on the web. I mean, they really shock me, that is, some of the lies that are told about the RCC. Even I don’t believe all the garbage on these kinds of websites.

My point is, not everyone believes as you do. And you have every right to believe what you want. Oddly enough, every Christian church I know of can find scripture that supposedly supports its belief that it is the only true church of God. Even the Mormons believe theirs is the only true church.

Like you, I have to follow what I believe God has taught me over the years. I have to go where I believe He wants me to be. And I have done so.

Fifty-eight years of Catholicism has given me the basics: the Trinity, the Redemption by Jesus, the Eucharist. I am grateful for all of these things. But my heart, soul and spirit tell me that I simply cannot believe the other subjects we have discussed in this thread. I simply do not believe them and never have believed them.

I don’t reject Catholicism because Orthodoxy rejects some of their doctrines; I reject Catholicism because I honestly believe that many of its teachings are flat-out wrong.

I have no malice for you or anyone else who believes as you do. I just believe you have been misled, and I post to share my beliefs with anyone who is willing to search their own soul and spirit and be truly honest with themselves about what they do and do not believe.

My closest friend, now that my wife has passed away, is a southern Baptist. Well, living in Florida as I do, I’m surrounded by them. But I believe they are also misled. That does not stop me from loving my best friend. We just don’t discuss religion, or politics for that matter (he’s a rep and I’m a dem). Our friendship is built upon 30 years of accepting and loving each other for who we are. He’s a good man, as also am I.

But if you are interested, you might enjoy reading the Orthodox website which explains all of Orthodox theology. It’s www.goarch.com …

Bless ya.🙂
 
Wesley7 said:
I think I understand the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.

Is it important to Catholics? . .
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VERY important, indeed. In order to accept the fact that Mary remained sinless throughout her entire life, one must also understand that she was conceived in her mother’s womb without original sin and was, therefore, free from the stain of original sin, or free from “concupiscence” (the tendency we all have toward sin). In other words, she was able to remain sinless throughout her entire life because she did not possess the tendency to choose evil that the rest of us have, due to the stain of original sin.
 
jrgiancola said:
Huiou, once again you write too far above my level of understanding.
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Really, you can’t understand basic English when it comes to adding or deleting words from bible passages?! Play dumb, 😃
People often do this when they themselves really do not know what they are talking about.
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Gee, I’ve never noticed. I generally work through each thing that is said; admit where I make mistakes; learn what I can – reading other people’s minds isn’t one of my skills, so I don’t bother with it.
I’m not saying that is true for you, but you might want to consider it.
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Teach me if I’m wrong – if not, close your mouth.
For me, Christianity is simple. God sent His only begotten Son to be a sacrifice for all mankind, to take upon Himself the sins of the entire world, to pay the penalty that we should have paid for violating His law.
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I don’t believe children who die in the womb broke any law knowingly that they SHOULD PAY for violation of anything, and I don’t believe God needed payment for Mary – being as he really is merciful. What kind of PAY_ONLY God do you have? a vending machine?
In so doing, Christ satisfied The Father’s need for justice and opened the door for our Father to show His love and mercy to us. All we need do to receive this mercy and His pardon is to love God with our whole hearts, minds, souls and spirits, and love our neighbors and ourselves. Christ gave us so many examples of ways to do this in our every day lives. This is the core and crux of Christianity. Everything else is subordinate to this fundamental truth, and much of it is inconsequential.
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There is nothing else; to love God and neighbor is the whole meaning of the Law the Prophets and the Ten Commandments. But, what you say in two sentences took a whole bible to explain, and thousands of years of commentary to weed out liars.
The only really important thing that separates us from the Protestants is that they have abandoned the seven sacraments, particularly the Eucharist.
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No, they have abandoned the church for their own teachers who tickle their ears.
You are protestant in that YOU PROTEST certain Catholic Teachings and LEFT the Catholic church to write these type of note on CAF. If you’re not protestant – then you would never have been Catholic to begin with.
It’s their loss and I feel sorry for them; they have no idea how wonderful it is to take the body and blood of Christ. Mary is our True Mother; when Christ gave her to John, He symbolically gave her to all of us. But let’s not make her a divinity. I do not believe she has ever desired that status.
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My Lutheran neighbors could look down their noses at your crocodile tears of sorrow. They have what you talk about; and I never made divinity out of any one – and why you would even suggest yourself as an accomplice crosses my mind like a lead weight aimed in the mud. What junk. 😛
 
How would one know which teaching are especially Orthodox when it comes to such things as Russian Orthodoxy or Ethiopian Orthodoxy? You argued the Bible, but you must realize by now that Orthodoxy itself is divided in the canon of Scripture (the Ethiopian Orthodox Church has the largest canon with 81 books total), so say one reads from an Ethiopian Orthodox canon and deprive at a different conclusion, would you say they are not Orthodox?

As for many such as masturbation, I would love to show you many arguments show Orthodoxy is against masturbation and consider it as a moral sin and require confession (orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/selfabuse.aspx). In regard of abortion it does seem that the Orthodox Church shares in the Catholic moral view as well (antiochian.org/1178)

As for Purgatory, although they do not define it as a dogma like the Catholic Church, most Orthodox denominations do recognize a state between heaven and hell in which the soul is brought toward the state of perfection. According to the Catechism of St.Philaret of Moscow, it states, “without having had time to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance…, may be aided towards the attainment of a blessed resurrection [at the end of time] by prayers offered in their behalf, especially those offered in union with the oblation of the bloodless sacrifice of the Body and Blood of Christ, and by works of mercy done in faith for their memory.” (sounds like the Catholic purgatory doesn’t it?). Again Confession of Dositheus states: “depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from there, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed; especially the unbloody Sacrifice benefiting the most; which each offers particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offers daily for all alike. Of course, it is understood that we do not know the time of their release. We know and believe that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment, but when we know not.”. Needless to say many Eastern Christians reject the fire version of the Latin Church and rather adopt a “toll house” version.
 
In regard of Contraception, I accept the Catholic Church moral point of view. I believe it is a sin because its goal is set out to trick God, to use God’s gift for the couple’s pleasure only and not for the responsibility which God prescribe His gift. It does remind us of the story of Onan doesn’t it? In regard to this the Orthodox mostly rejects artificial contraception and like the Catholics they accept Natural planning.
 
But if she was never tainted with original sin, was she truly human?:confused:
 
We must realize that when God created human, they were perfect. So human suppose to be LIKE Mary: perfect, obedient, faithful…, not stained with sins. That’s why Catholics refer to Mary as the new Eve, along with Jesus as the new Adam
 
Unity, while some Orthodox may ponder purgatory and the other dogmas you mention, official predominant Orthodox dogma is clearly stated on the website that I have supplied:

www.goarch.org

and I have quoted it exactly as it appears on that site. I have also discussed these matters with my priest and he concurs with what I have posted. Orthodoxy does not officially believe in the existence of purgatory. It believes that one is either admitted to heaven or sent to hell immediately following death.

Again, for me, the concept of purgatory diminishes the power and efficacy of Jesus’s redemptive sacrifice. The true Christian is cleansed of all sin, at all times, even at the moment of death.

Orthodoxy also has a different concept of how mankind is judged. I suggest you read it; it conforms more closely with what Jesus said and did than anything I have read from any other religion.

My church does not permit the creation of dogma by one man; the system is different. Patriarchs in various world cities determine the “mind of the church” in various synods and councils when formulating dogma, believing that the Holy Spirit speaks to the entire church, not just to one man. Writings of the church fathers are also important when they bear relevance on the topic discussed.

Note that I have posted the website of the GREEK Orthodox Church; other Orthodox churches might permit other beliefs, I have not explored this area. But members are not required to believe them in order to receive salvation. As Marco Polo pointed out earlier, Orthodox Christians are not considered heretics if they believe in the Immaculate Conception; it is just not an officially-recognized dogma.

Orthodox Christians are not taught to pray for the poor souls in purgatory. However, we may pray to the saints for their intercessions and pray for our deceased loved ones. God does not exist in time; there is no time where God exists. Past, present and future are all one state for God. Perhaps our prayers for deceased loved ones reach God at the same time they are judged. Perhaps He includes our prayers in His final judgment even though they are prayed after one is dead. There is nothing God cannot do. It’s a mystery to me since I cannot imagine existing any place where there is no time.

If Mary was born without original sin, was She truly human? Certainly not in EVERY sense of the word. Christ was born without the sin, and He was indeed truly human, but He was also divine. Mary is not divine. The Orthodox view, that She was cleansed from ancestral sin at the moment She consented to be the Theotokos, seems more likely to me. But I have not ruled out Her Immaculate Conception. The problem is, I just don’t trust anything promulgated by the RCC since before the end of the first millennium. The RCC has too many skeletons in its closet for me.

Regardless of Mary’s sin status, I love Her as my true Mother and the bearer of Jesus Christ. I don’t pray the rosary and never have. But I talk with Her as a son does with his mother. And I believe She loves me. I’ve had the same statue of Her in my front yard for nearly 40 years. It’s worn from the elements. I’ve always believed that She has protected me and my family, in part, because of my love for Her.
 
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