The Immaculate Conception

[jrgiancola]

Huiou. I could never teach you. You obviously know more than I do.

 

[jrgiancola]

Unity, were Adam and Eve truly human? Good question. Born without sin but with the ability to sin. I’ve never pondered that one. If Mary were born without sin, then, like Adam and Eve, she would still have the ability to sin. That would be true if She, Adam and Eve were truly human and if She is the new Eve. Are you saying that Her Immaculate Conception created a situation where She did not have the ability to sin? If so, then She would not be like Adam and Eve. Again, if she did not have the ability to sin, was She truly human?

 

[razredge]

No, I don’t think it is that important, certainly there are a lot more important dogmas.

 

[jrgiancola]

Unity:

The sin of Onan was not masturbation. The sin of Onan was his refusal to follow the Levirate Law, that is, to give children to the wife of his dead brother which would be considered the true descendants of his brother. He made no attempt to trick God (God cannot be tricked at any rate). His act was a refusal to follow the law of God as it existed at that time.

Huoui:

I’m not playing dumb. It is your style of writing that confuses me.

Try this and perhaps I will be able to understand what you write:

1. Write about one topic at a time;
2. Present the point you intend to make.
3. Use simple sentences instead of run-on, long sentences that jump from subject to subject;
4. Present your arguments and reasoning clearly;
5. Explain terms that the ordinary person might not understand.
6. Stick to that one topic until you have finished it. Then move to another topic.

You jump around so much when you post that I lose track of what you are trying to say. I get confused by this and lose the meaning you are trying to convey.

Again, did Mary’s Immaculate Conception take away her ability to sin? Adam and Eve were created without sin, but they retained their ability to sin. Did Mary also retain the ability to sin? If not, then she was not like Adam and Eve. If she was not like Adam and Eve, was she truly human? Were Adam and Eve truly human or were they different from the rest of us? Did they contain a spark of the divine that we do not have by virtue of their fall from Grace? Tradition says that Mary conceived at a young age, which was the custom of her time. She obviously had the intellect to consent to be the Theotokos. But at what point did she become aware of sin and its ramifications? I don’t believe that the wrongs children commit are sin. No one can sin until he becomes aware of what sin is. Did Mary ever get angry and fail to honor her mother or father when she was a child? Are you saying she led a perfect sinless life from the moment she was born? At what age did she achieve consciousness of sin? These are questions I do not have answers to, and Catholic posters here on this website tend to disagree on these things, or at least they present contradictory explanations.

Again, my problem is that I just don’t believe what the RCC has formulated since well before the end of the first millennium. Did Mary ask us to pray the rosary, or did the RCC fabricate this? Did it fabricate some of the things Mary said at Lourdes and Fatima? How will we ever know the truth?

St. Paul persecuted Christians; it took an appearance by Jesus Himself to convince Paul. Some people just do not believe everything they are told; some people require some form of proof. St Thomas required proof of Jesus’s resurrection. That is the nature of most of humanity.

After learning of the Orthodox beliefs, I find that I believe them. My spirit tells me that these are true teachings. I do not get that same internal response when I read the RCC teachings. And its past history is a stumbling block for me. Centuries of suppression, deception, coercion, violence and murder to maintain its doctrines sticks in my throat. Popes who had mistresses, antipopes, allegations of improper coercion that elected John 23 instead of Cardinal Siri. Where there is smoke, there is usually fire. Even the hint of scandal, if untrue, taints its purity. And now I see Catholic writers attempting to rewrite the church’s past history. Galileo was NOT considered a heretic; the RCC did NOT reject the Copernican theory of the solar system. All of these things strain the church’s credibility for me.

I want to know the truth even if I am wrong. Do all of you have the same desire? Is the truth more important to you than anything else? Are you willing to let go of what you believe if you find it it not the truth?

Jesus is the way, the TRUTH and the life. I want to know the truth, about everything. Unfortunately, I probably never will until I am dead and freed from this mortal body and world. But I still search for it. I believe I have found the truth in Orthodoxy, at least more truth than I have found any where else.

 

[RaphaelJ]

As for me, I think that one argument I can think of for the Immaculate Conception is the parallelism between Adam and Jesus, as well as Mary and Eve. We must remember that in Genesis sin didn’t enter by just one person. Both of them made sin enter the world. Thus, God redeemed the world with the use of Christ, along with the selfless cooperation of the Virgin Mary. (Had Mary not accepted there’s no telling what would have happened.) Quite a few Church Fathers observed this parallelism. Now, if both of them are to be the new Adam and Eve, they had to undo sin by doing the opposite of what they did. Obeying God. Also, another thing to remember is that just as Jesus was preserved from sin as he was to be the new Adam, so too was Mary preserved from sin as the new Eve. Another thing to remember is the text from Genesis:

“I will put enmity between you and the woman, and your offspring and her offspring. He will crush your head and you will strike his heel” Gen 3:15

Technically, this can’t be referring to Eve in particular because Eve was now under the rule of Satan, in the form of sin. The person confirmed to have made war with Satan is Christ Himself through His sacrifice on the cross. However, we can also extend this to His mother if we make this parallelism with Genesis. Had Mary been under the stain of sin even just once then she can’t truly be in enmity with Satan.

 

[Roy5]

Two quick points.

1. There is nothing in the scriptures to suggest that Mary was without sin. The Bible states that ALL have fallen short, etc. It seems likely that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, defined (as I recall) in 1864, was a development, not a dogma in the early church. The scriptures don’t even give us the names of Mary’s parents and various stories that are attached to them. Pius IX, of course, also defined the doctrine of Papal Infallibility and issued that notorious “Syllabus of Errors” which condemned democracy including freedom of religion.

2. **Personally, the whole idea of original sin troubles me**. To begin with it often is traced to Adam and Eve, Their story, in my view, is not history but a parable to illustrate the danger of disobeying God. I've also been puzzled - I think the Danish theologian Kierkegaard made this point - that if Adam and Eve didn't yet have the knowledge of good and evil God's command not to eat from that tree would not have made sense to them. Like telling a baby not to do something, before that child understood right and wrong, etc. Besides, I believe God is just, and what is just about burdening a soul with sin as soon as they come into the world. Etc.,

 

[RaphaelJ]

Unfortunately, if you don’t believe in anything else besides Scripture, then I can’t argue that point. From the Church’s point of view, Scripture is only one of two fountains where the river (Word of God) flows from. The other is Tradition. Well, this isn’t the thread for this however, regarding Tradition. It is stated that her parents are Sts. Joachim and Anne.

Regarding original sin, we must agree that at some point, Adam and Eve were created sinless. Immaculate. However, due to their pride and disobedience, they abandoned the commands that God gave them. This act of disobedience created a break between a holy God and a now-stained Adam. This deficiency was inherited by us because we can’t inherit something that was lost before.

However, do remember that Adam and Eve weren’t quite like us. They had a stronger will, stronger resistance to temptation and their wills were ordered. They also had a more perfect control over their passions. To compare them to babies just sounds… wrong.

 

[crazzeto]

Two quick points.

1. There is nothing in the scriptures to suggest that Mary was without sin. The Bible states that ALL have fallen short, etc. It seems likely that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, defined (as I recall) in 1864, was a development, not a dogma in the early church. The scriptures don’t even give us the names of Mary’s parents and various stories that are attached to them. Pius IX, of course, also defined the doctrine of Papal Infallibility and issued that notorious “Syllabus of Errors” which condemned democracy including freedom of religion.

2. **Personally, the whole idea of original sin troubles me**. To begin with it often is traced to Adam and Eve, Their story, in my view, is not history but a parable to illustrate the danger of disobeying God. I've also been puzzled - I think the Danish theologian Kierkegaard made this point - that if Adam and Eve didn't yet have the knowledge of good and evil God's command not to eat from that tree would not have made sense to them. Like telling a baby not to do something, before that child understood right and wrong, etc.  Besides, I believe God is just, and what is just about burdening a soul with sin as soon as they come into the world. Etc.,

Roy5,

Luk 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Apparently not everyone fell short, Zacharias and Elizabeth made it. So clearly, “all have sinned” is not a global, without exception all have sinned. So with that out of the way, it has been the constant Tradition of the church that the Theotokos (Blessed Mother) is sinless. On this, even East and West agrees. Knowing the importance of tradition, from Pauls letters to Timothy (I believe it was), it seems to fair to me to accept the beliefs of the early martyers whos blood watered the faith, and grew it.

 

[RosaryFan]

Unity, were Adam and Eve truly human? Good question. Born without sin but with the ability to sin. I’ve never pondered that one. If Mary were born without sin, then, like Adam and Eve, she would still have the ability to sin. That would be true if She, Adam and Eve were truly human and if She is the new Eve. Are you saying that Her Immaculate Conception created a situation where She did not have the ability to sin? If so, then She would not be like Adam and Eve. Again, if she did not have the ability to sin, was She truly human?

The ABILITY to sin is called “free will”. The stain of original sin is “concupiscence”. Adam and Eve were born without the stain of original sin, but with free will. They went against the odds and chose sin, even though it would have been easier for them to avoid sin than it would be for us, because we have the stain of original sin, but they did not. Satan probably worked very hard to tempt them. He doesn’t have to work as hard with us. We fall much easier.

Mary was also born with free will, but without the stain of original sin (concupiscence), so it was easier for Mary to avoid sin than it is for us. I’ve heard it said that the devil was not allowed to temp Mary. Therefore, she lived a life free of all sin.

 

[UnityofTrinity]

That’s the problem my friend, as you advocated that Orthodox has many options to choose between belief and disbeliefs, you neglect to remember the fact that there are multiple versions of Orthodoxy, and therefore multiple beliefs. You see I cannot take your website as “the official Orthodox teaching” simple because I don’t know if such exists. What if the “official teaching” of Russian Orthodoxy differs than the Ethiopian Orthodox teachings? Adding up it slowly becoming Protestantism. You may be here and argue about terminology of Onanism, but the website I gave you clearly point out Onanism as masturbation, and define it as a sin. Even though you do not agree that masturbation is a sin many Orthodox denominations do accept it. You may not like to accept Purgatory, but again many accept an existence afterdeath between heaven and hell; and that’s why Orthodox, like Catholic, pray for those who have passed (Into thy hands, 0 Lord, I commend the souls of thy servants NN., and beseech thee to grant them rest in the place of thy rest…).

 

[Roy5]

crazzeto
Are you suggesting that Zacharias and Elizabeth also were immaculately conceived and/or lives sinless lives? It sounds that way. Lots of folks in the Bible are found to be righteous, starting with Noah as I recall. That's quite different from claims made regarding Mary, the only human said to have been born immaculately and the only human to live a sinless life.

 

[UnityofTrinity]

crazzeto

 Are you suggesting that Zacharias and Elizabeth also were immaculately conceived and/or lives sinless lives? It sounds that way. Lots of folks in the Bible are found to be righteous, starting with Noah as I recall. That's quite different from claims made regarding Mary, the only human said to have been born immaculately and the only human to live a sinless life.

Many people in the Bible are called righteous as well, are we saying that they are contradictory? Uhm, I don’t think so. If Adam and Eve could have been conceived without sins, why can’t Mary? If God is truly omnipotent, surely He could give her the Immaculate Conception?

 

[Roy5]

Where in the Bible does it say that Adam and Eve were conceived without sin? Where does it say that they were conceived at all? I believe that parable says that Adam was made from dirt/clay/dust and that Eve was created from one of his ribs. I say parable because I don’t see how anyone today can view the Adam and Eve story as true. It makes an important ,oral point but obviously is a parable, fable, folklore, legend and/or myth.

 

[UnityofTrinity]

Where in the Bible does it say that Adam and Eve were conceived without sin? Where does it say that they were conceived at all? I believe that parable says that Adam was made from dirt/clay/dust and that Eve was created from one of his ribs. I say parable because I don’t see how anyone today can view the Adam and Eve story as true. It makes an important ,oral point but obviously is a parable, fable, folklore, legend and/or myth.

the Bible does say Adam and Eve were created without sins. Therefore why can’t God do the same for Mary? Unless of course you do not accept God’s omnipotence. Then to Adam and Eve, the same principle you use to say Adam and Eve is just a parable and a myth could easily be applied for Jesus, the Virgin Birth, and His resurrection

 

[jrgiancola]

I have always believed the story of Adam and Eve. I agree that species evolve and adapt to their environment. I also believe the universe is 14 billion years old and the earth 4 billion years old.

But there’s no way I can believe that mankind ascended from lower primates.

Whether God took clay and made Adam or more specifically brought all the sub-atomic particles together is not important to me. What is important is that God created mankind, separately and uniquely, from all other animals, and created us in His image.

Kierkegaard is good reading. But he doesn’t get the simplicity of it all. God told Adam and Eve not to eat from a certain tree. They understood that. They ate anyway.

This whole concept that mankind is just another evolved animal diminishes the value of us as the pinnacle of God’s creation. The Deity took human form and suffered a horrible death to save us. I don’t believe God would have done that if we are just another evolved animal. We are His children.

Some stories in Genesis are probably symbolic. The 6-day creation was more like 6 of God’s days, each day of which could be billions of years.

But I believe some of the stories are literally true; the miracle of the creation of mankind is one of these I believe is literally true.

 

[jrgiancola]

Unity, your argument is a cop-out. The Orthodox Church and its belief system may not be as tightly controlled as in the RCC, but its fundamental beliefs are shared between the various ethnic denominations. The website I gave you is the official website of the Greek Orthodox Church. Are you afraid to read it? Afraid you might find something you agree with? Go on, it won’t hurt you.

 

[ConstantineTG]

the Bible does say Adam and Eve were created without sins. Therefore why can’t God do the same for Mary? Unless of course you do not accept God’s omnipotence. Then to Adam and Eve, the same principle you use to say Adam and Eve is just a parable and a myth could easily be applied for Jesus, the Virgin Birth, and His resurrection

Actually the Church doesn’t teach it this way. Adam and Eve were a new creation, Mary is not. If Mary was created the same way Adam and Eve were, then Jesus is not related to us. It is important that Jesus shares in our nature because it is this nature is what he redeems.

 

[jrgiancola]

The Book of Matthew states (quoting Jesus Himself):

“When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
[32] Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,
[33] and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.
[34] Then the King will say to those at his right hand, **Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;** [35] for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, [36] I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' [37] Then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?
[38] And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee?
[39] And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’
[40] And the King will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' [41] Then he will say to those at his left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;
[42] for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
[43] I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
[44] Then they also will answer, Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' [45] Then he will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’
[46] And they will go away into eternal punishment, but** the righteous into eternal life.”
**

These are Jesus’s own words. He speaks nothing about any purgatory. All the dogma and theological debate and conclusions cannot contradict what Jesus said.

Orthodox Christianity is NOT sola scripture either. I don’t believe a church should be. Our church fathers expanded on the teachings contained in the NT.

But again, nothing and no one can contradict what Jesus actually said. Period.

 

[ConstantineTG]

The Book of Matthew states (quoting Jesus Himself):

“When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
[32] Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,
[33] and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.
[34] Then the King will say to those at his right hand, **Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;** [35] for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, [36] I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' [37] Then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?
[38] And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee?
[39] And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’
[40] And the King will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' [41] Then he will say to those at his left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;
[42] for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
[43] I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
[44] Then they also will answer, Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' [45] Then he will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’
[46] And they will go away into eternal punishment, but** the righteous into eternal life.”
**

These are Jesus’s own words. He speaks nothing about any purgatory. All the dogma and theological debate and conclusions cannot contradict what Jesus said.

Orthodox Christianity is NOT sola scripture either. I don’t believe a church should be. Our church fathers expanded on the teachings contained in the NT.

But again, nothing and no one can contradict what Jesus actually said. Period.

Do the Orthodox pray for the dead or not? Do you believe these prayers are efficacious and could lead a soul to God?

 

[razredge]

Two quick points.

2. **Personally, the whole idea of original sin troubles me**. To begin with it often is traced to Adam and Eve, Their story, in my view, is not history but a parable to illustrate the danger of disobeying God. I've also been puzzled - I think the Danish theologian Kierkegaard made this point - that if Adam and Eve didn't yet have the knowledge of good and evil God's command not to eat from that tree would not have made sense to them. Like telling a baby not to do something, before that child understood right and wrong, etc.  Besides, I believe God is just, and what is just about burdening a soul with sin as soon as they come into the world. Etc.,

I agree with that, Original Sin was first posited by St Paul and later developed by theologians over the centuries (like St Augustine)

Neither the Jews nor the Muslims have any concept of Original Sin despite both having the same creation story.