The Immaculate Heart of Mary is a heresy

[Drawmack]

Any lay person can do what I did, which is simply quote the Church on her teachings. I risk no heresy in pointing out what I did, nor did I declare anything at all…I merely pointed out to him that he was wrong, and told him to be careful and quoted the Church to show him that he was (at least) dancing on a very fine and dangerous line.

You stated, “To hold the position budgie is holding as a Catholic, a Catholic who has been shown the error of his ways and ideas, is a position that automatically excommunicates a person.”

In placing the phrase “a Catholic who has been shown the error of his ways and ideas” within parenthesis inside the sentence “To hold the position budgie is holding as a Catholic is a position that automatically excommunicates a person” is to define the term “a Catholic” within this sentence as one who has been shown the error of his ways. Thus this sentence did, in fact, proclaim excommunication on Budgie.

Now, I’m open to the possibility that you did not mean to do this. Heck, I’ve misspoken on message boards many times. Usually it is because of sloppy punctuation. So, while I’ll happily accept that you did not mean to proclaim this, you did proclaim this.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Of course we need to pray for him, but we should not stop trying to correct him, after all two of the spiritual works of mercy are instructing the ignorant and admonishing the sinner. To hold the position budgie is holding as a Catholic, a Catholic who has been shown the error of his ways and ideas, is a position that can automatically excommunicate a person. He needs to be aware of that, reconsider his erroneous stance, repent, go to confession, and then perhaps study some solid theology.

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(So that it is not missed, I am bringing this over from the last page.)

Canon 751: “Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.”

Canon 1364 §1: “an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.”

The phrase “latae sententiae” means a judgment or sentence which has already been brought, in other words, a sentence or judgment which does not need a future additional judgment from someone in authority; it refers to a type of excommunication which is automatic. Such a sentence of excommunication is incurred “by the very commission of the offense,” (CCC 2272) and does not require the future particular judgment of a case by competent authority.

Apostasy, heresy, and schism are all offences which incur a sentence of excommunication automatically. Heresy is the obstinate denial of any truth of the Catholic faith, on a matter of faith or morals, which has been definitively taught by the Magisterium. The Magisterium has repeatedly and definitively taught that abortion is always gravely immoral. (CCC 2270 to 2275)

I edited it in the bold above. When I made the statement I was not making a declaration that Budgie was excommunicated, I was merely informing him that the Church teaches that a Catholic excommunicates himself latae sententiae by holding this position. This I said he needs to be aware of.

 

[E.E.N.S]

…in this particular situation I added the word “can”, (though I don’t think it was absolutely necessary.)

 

[BWNM]

I do not believe Mary is being correctly depicted at the moment and the Immaculate Heart is a heresy propounded by Pope Pius IX. I suppose these two pictures of Mary and Christ could be interpreted differently but Mary should only resemble Christ in physical aspect as I’ve said before. I believe that the sunrays also represent the glory of the Lord as mentioned in Luke 2:8"An angel of the Lord appeared to them and the glory of the Lord shone around them" aswell as representing Christ as light of the world. Christ is also represented with a face like the sun in the book of Revelation 1:13-16.

The Sacred Heart is also on fire and fire can be used to represent both Mary and Christ representing the Holy Spirit which also came down on Mary as flames at Pentecost. The fire could also be used around her heart but should emit a smaller light. The Jews used a candle as a prayer to represent the soul of a dead person and it may be that this tells us something of the nature of our soul, a spiritual flame.

I think if we’re concentrating on Mary’s heart then we are not making enough of her womb and it is this that is the most important part of her according to the Hail Mary and the Gospel of Luke. I know it is not current practice to depict her with the Sacred Heart inside her womb instead of in her chest, but symbols sometimes need to be changed and we don’t have a symbol for God the Father.

Long road still ahead…are you really reading what you writing?

 

[SaltnPeppa]

Admittedly, there is nearly zero if not zero Biblical support for the doctrine of the immaculate conception from which the belief in the immaculate heart of Mary stems. However, I have read the article on the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary on Catholic Answers’ main page and admittedly, it makes some sense. However, I personally do not hold to the doctrine of the immaculate conception as I believe that all but Jesus have sinned and I personally feel that the immaculate conception lifts Mary to almost a goddess-like level. That said, I am not saying that Catholics worship Mary. I used to be a Catholic and I know that they do not worship Mary. All I am saying is that for me, the immaculate conception brings Mary uncomfortably close to goddess-like status.

 

[BWNM]

I have been doing research for the Church and I am developing my own theology.

This I’ve missed. Are you making fun of people on this forum? Or are you pulling some kind of joke? Or are you serious?

 

[Drawmack]

…in this particular situation I added the word “can”, (though I don’t think it was absolutely necessary.)

Thank you for the correction. Though, I do think it was necessary. I’m a little hard nosed about these things because I almost stopped my conversion process over reading statements from the laity similar to that one on message boards and when I printed them off and spoke with my priest about it he was very upset and said something to the effect of who do these people think they are, I don’t even have the authority to make statements like that. So, I correct it when I see it because even though it may seem small it could have a seriously detrimental effect on someone who is not strong in their faith.

 

[budgie2]

So you would excommunicate me on these grounds? I have not threatened to excommunicate you. I have friends that have had abortions that I have tried to help get back in contact with the Church. I do not think you’re attitude is that of a Christian.

 

[matahari]

So you would excommunicate me on these grounds? I have not threatened to excommunicate you. I have friends that have had abortions that I have tried to help get back in contact with the Church. I do not think you’re attitude is that of a Christian.

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Hello Budgie, I’ve just started reading this thread today. Your comments about Mary seem almost typical Protestant attitude.
You should try trust the C Church on this - assuming you ARE a Catholic.

There’s so much more about Mary you don’t know

For example that when Jesus was dying on the Cross he bequeathed Mary to his followers. She is now our Mother in the Faith.
Jesus is our elder Brother
We have same Mother and Father as He

             _____________________________________

In the Old Testament the Holiest Object on earth was Ark of the Covenant
When Oza touched the Ark the anger of God was kindled against him
Catholic teaching has always been that Mary is ‘Ark of the Covenant’
That makes her very unique and worthy of our highest respect

Just as the Old Testament Ark went with the Israelites into battle
Now Mary goes with us into Spiritual Warfare specially when we pray Rosary

May Holy Spirit guide you.

Tonette

 

[Nick_in_MB]

So you would excommunicate me on these grounds? I have not threatened to excommunicate you. I have friends that have had abortions that I have tried to help get back in contact with the Church.

No. You excommunicate yourself.

I do not think you’re attitude is that of a Christian.

You’re attitude and opinions throughout the thread are not Catholic.

 

[Drawmack]

No. You excommunicate yourself.

You’re attitude and opinions throughout the thread are not Catholic.

By what authority to you proclaim excommunication on someone? Do you have the faculties, granted by the magisterium, to do this?

 

[Nick_in_MB]

By what authority to you proclaim excommunication on someone? Do you have the faculties, granted by the magisterium, to do this?

No.
But it’s an automatic excommunication.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=23212
What sins bring about automatic excommunication?

There’s even a wikipedia article.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latae_sententiae

 

[Good_Fella]

Admittedly, there is nearly zero if not zero Biblical support for the doctrine of the immaculate conception from which the belief in the immaculate heart of Mary stems. However, I have read the article on the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption of Mary on Catholic Answers’ main page and admittedly, it makes some sense. However, I personally do not hold to the doctrine of the immaculate conception as I believe that all but Jesus have sinned and I personally feel that the immaculate conception lifts Mary to almost a goddess-like level. That said, I am not saying that Catholics worship Mary. I used to be a Catholic and I know that they do not worship Mary. All I am saying is that for me, the immaculate conception brings Mary uncomfortably close to goddess-like status.

Luke compares Mary with the pure and undefiled ark of the Old Covenant.
*
[Luke 1:39 / 2 Samuel 6:2; 1:41 / 6:16; 1:43 / 6:9; 1:56 / 6:11; 1 Chron 13:14]*

The ark of the Old Covenant was fashioned of the purest gold to contain God’s word. Mary, the ark of the New Covenant, was created pure and unblemished so that she would be made worthy to conceive and bear the holy child, the word made flesh (Exodus 25:11-21; Luke 1:28, 30-31).

In Romans 3:23, the Greek word for “all” in the phrase “all have sinned” is pantes, which we also have in 1 Corinthians 15:22.

For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life.

According to your understanding of what Paul implies in his epistle to the Romans, Enoch and Elijah must have died instead of being taken up to the terrestial paradise, and all human beings without exception will inherit eternal life. Jesus (the Son of Man) and Mary are an exception to the universal rule of sin, for neither of them were conceived in original sin nor succumbed to the devil’s temptations free from concupiscence and endowed with the fullness of grace.

On the contrary, it is when we sin against God by disobeying his will and rejecting his grace that we aim to be like gods (Gen 3:4-5). We are perfect before God as long as we hear his word and observe it, being true to our divine image (Gen 1:27).

• “So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.” *
  Matthew 5, 48

Beloved, we are God’s children now; what we shall be has not yet been revealed. We do know that when it is revealed we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. Everyone who has this hope based on him makes himself pure as he is pure.
1 John 3, 2-3

We make ourselves pure as He is pure by cooperating with divine grace.

Pax Christu :harp:

 

[E.E.N.S]

So you would excommunicate me on these grounds? I have not threatened to excommunicate you. I have friends that have had abortions that I have tried to help get back in contact with the Church. I do not think you’re attitude is that of a Christian.

Budgie, did you even read the posts above? No one here can excommunicating you, no, what I posted was from the Code of Canon Law and from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, both stating that a Catholic the obstinately denies Catholic teaching, even after being reproved, risks automatic excommunication…meaning that it is a choice you make to excommunicate yourself.

While I am not saying that this has in fact already happened, I am saying that in the very least it looks like you are walking that fine-line.

 

[Drawmack]

No.
But it’s an automatic excommunication.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=23212
What sins bring about automatic excommunication?

There’s even a wikipedia article.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latae_sententiae

Who gave you the authority to declare someone a heretic?

 

[JulianN]

• The Immaculate conception led to the doctrine of the Assumption which means that Mary is the only human being in history to never have died or resurrected, excluding her son who shared the same burden of death with us. .

Don’t forget Enoch and Elijah.

 

[Nick_in_MB]

Who gave you the authority to declare someone a heretic?

Huh? I didn’t call anybody a heretic. Nor did I attempt to excommunicate a person.

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/heretic

Main Entry: her·e·tic
Pronunciation: \ˈher-ə-ˌtik, ˈhe-rə-\
Function: noun
Date: 14th century

1: a dissenter from established religious dogma ; especially : a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church who disavows a revealed truth
2: one who dissents from an accepted belief or doctrine : nonconformist

edited to add:
And perhaps it’s St. Paul who calls them a heretic.

Titus 3:9-11

9 Avoid foolish arguments, genealogies, rivalries, and quarrels about the law, for they are useless and futile.
10 After a first and second warning, break off contact with a heretic,
11 realizing that such a person is perverted and sinful and stands self-condemned.

 

[davidv]

Who gave you the authority to declare someone a heretic?

Would you please explain how anything state in Nick_in_MB’s post came from his own authority. He quoted the words of the Church. They are not his personal opinion.

 

[Drawmack]

Huh? I didn’t call anybody a heretic. Nor did I attempt to excommunicate a person.

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/heretic

edited to add:
And perhaps it’s St. Paul who calls them a heretic.

Titus 3:9-11

You stated: “No, you excommunicate yourself.”

You stated: “You’re attitude and opinions throughout this thread are not Catholic.”

These are your words. These are direct quotes. By what authority to you make these statements? These are not presented as opinion, but as statement of fact. Who gave you the authority to proclaim such things?

 

[Drawmack]

Would you please explain how anything state in Nick_in_MB’s post came from his own authority. He quoted the words of the Church. They are not his personal opinion.

See my response to Nick