The Immorality of Social Security Cuts

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No need to be fearful. Long before Social Security, people saved money. They worked and lived modest lives. In modest homes. I was taught those things.

God bless,
Ed
For once, I do agree with you, far too many people have reached the point where they completely rely on the Govt for their existence and survival…how do they reach such a point? Why would someone want to rely solely on Govt for such a thing anyway?

To my knowledge, there is nothing in the US Constitution that says the Govt MUST take care of and provide for its citizens financially at ANY point in their lives.
 
To my knowledge, there is nothing in the US Constitution that says the Govt MUST take care of and provide for its citizens financially at ANY point in their lives.
The constitution to some people (actually, a lot more than “some”) has become irrelevant. Many people only vote for the candidate who will give them free stuff, and they really don’t care about how it gets paid for, as long as someone else pays for it.

Those in power only care about getting re-elected, so they will spend any amount of money necessary to buy votes, regardless of the country’s ability to pay the tab. They then will hide the true cost of what they spent by talking in terms of ten year budgeting windows, baseline budgeting, keeping social security off the books, and other accounting gimmicks.

You are right, the constitution says nothing about the government taking care of its citizens financially, however…given that a number of Supreme Court Justices and a host of politicians believe the constitution is a “living, breathing document”, then the constitution can mean anything those in power want it to mean.

In terms of the title of the thread, I would say this: Also immoral is saddling future generations with the unpaid bills of today (in the US, its $17T and counting)
 
How about the immorality of the Jesuit encomienda and repartimento systems that parallel the Irish monastic communes–did I say that?–that helped the non-religious effect socio-economic stability NOT being applied today? Why is the Catholic Church wasting all that bra(name removed by moderator)ower whining about Social Security cuts? The Amish take care of their own and refuse government help. Point some fingers right here, there, at that chest sitting in front of the computater. Now go ask a Jesuit to help tighten up the Catholic community with vertically-integrated socio-economic cooperation. Or post something free on Craig’s List. Please, God, UNITE US IN THE HOLY SPIRIT!
 


It was originally set up to safeguard the elderly from destitution.
Yep. It was intended to be a very minimal amount to support an elderly person who didn’t or couldn’t save for retirement after a working career. Hence, the age for payout tended to mean a lot of folks wouldn’t be drawing anything out of it, or very little. They would be dead before or shortly after the end of their working career. But it made it affordable. The intention was however, that any worker who’d put money into the system could count on receiving benefits when they retire.

Then life spans extended, folks were able to retire earlier, other programs were tied to SS where folks could draw from it. And the government was never setting aside the employee or employer contributions anyway. Accounting gimmicks and spending the money, paying today’s recipients with money from todays contributors. The baby boom and bust, and eventually there’s far more drawing money than putting it in. It became a part of people’s retirement planning. And they don’t view it as an entitlement, they don’t view it as welfare, because its something they contributed to their whole working careers (in the US). They become quite understandbly angry when anyone suggests reducing benefits because they see it as their money, their contributions, a commitment from the government.

But it can’t continue this way. It’s unaffordable. Even our great-great grandchildren giving every dollar they earn to us in the older generation won’t balance the books. Hence my statement above-- in the US the system is very likely to become means tested. Even though you put in the max your entire working career, if you were prudent in investments and have other source of income you’ll receive nothing. The available funds will go to those who through misfortune or poor planning aren’t as adequately prepared for retirement. Morally, I think it will be the right thing to do ---- if it’s part of an overall plan to fix our countries financial situation. If it’s an excuse to just divert and spend money on some worthless effort vice reduce debt, there’s no point.

It’s funny, greed depends on perspective. Somehow corporations and folks working hard to produce are greedy, those who are dependent on others for charity-- but expect, even demand it be provided aren’t. A lot of countries run on greed and envy of what others have produced through hard work and sacrifice. Every rich person I know took risks and chances I wouldn’t be willing to in order to start and grow their businesses. Lived on a pittance for years, time away from family, prioritizing paying employees over themselves, mortgaging and risking their homes — years and years before starting to see a good profit and improvements in living conditions. And having risked complete failure and bankruptcy with no guarantee they’d ever see success, just the drive to pursue an idea, and at the same time employ and provide a good living for many others.
 
Yep. It was intended to be a very minimal amount to support an elderly person who didn’t or couldn’t save for retirement after a working career. Hence, the age for payout tended to mean a lot of folks wouldn’t be drawing anything out of it, or very little. They would be dead before or shortly after the end of their working career. But it made it affordable. The intention was however, that any worker who’d put money into the system could count on receiving benefits when they retire.

Then life spans extended, folks were able to retire earlier, other programs were tied to SS where folks could draw from it. And the government was never setting aside the employee or employer contributions anyway. Accounting gimmicks and spending the money, paying today’s recipients with money from todays contributors. The baby boom and bust, and eventually there’s far more drawing money than putting it in. It became a part of people’s retirement planning. And they don’t view it as an entitlement, they don’t view it as welfare, because its something they contributed to their whole working careers (in the US). They become quite understandbly angry when anyone suggests reducing benefits because they see it as their money, their contributions, a commitment from the government.

But it can’t continue this way. It’s unaffordable. Even our great-great grandchildren giving every dollar they earn to us in the older generation won’t balance the books. Hence my statement above-- in the US the system is very likely to become means tested. Even though you put in the max your entire working career, if you were prudent in investments and have other source of income you’ll receive nothing. The available funds will go to those who through misfortune or poor planning aren’t as adequately prepared for retirement. Morally, I think it will be the right thing to do ---- if it’s part of an overall plan to fix our countries financial situation. If it’s an excuse to just divert and spend money on some worthless effort vice reduce debt, there’s no point.

It’s funny, greed depends on perspective. Somehow corporations and folks working hard to produce are greedy, those who are dependent on others for charity-- but expect, even demand it be provided aren’t. A lot of countries run on greed and envy of what others have produced through hard work and sacrifice. Every rich person I know took risks and chances I wouldn’t be willing to in order to start and grow their businesses. Lived on a pittance for years, time away from family, prioritizing paying employees over themselves, mortgaging and risking their homes — years and years before starting to see a good profit and improvements in living conditions. And having risked complete failure and bankruptcy with no guarantee they’d ever see success, just the drive to pursue an idea, and at the same time employ and provide a good living for many others.
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If a politician suggested raising retirement age he’d get beaten to death with canes and walkers at the ballot box.
 
The constitution to some people (actually, a lot more than “some”) has become irrelevant. Many people only vote for the candidate who will give them free stuff, and they really don’t care about how it gets paid for, as long as someone else pays for it.

Those in power only care about getting re-elected, so they will spend any amount of money necessary to buy votes, regardless of the country’s ability to pay the tab. They then will hide the true cost of what they spent by talking in terms of ten year budgeting windows, baseline budgeting, keeping social security off the books, and other accounting gimmicks.

You are right, the constitution says nothing about the government taking care of its citizens financially, however…given that a number of Supreme Court Justices and a host of politicians believe the constitution is a “living, breathing document”, then the constitution can mean anything those in power want it to mean.

In terms of the title of the thread, I would say this: Also immoral is saddling future generations with the unpaid bills of today (in the US, its $17T and counting)
Just a little example to realize how much $1 Trillion dollars actually is…

The US Govt spent $1 Trillon dollars from the time Lincoln was president up until president G. W. Bush!!! Thats includes EVERYTHING too!!! That is ALOT of time…so compare that to our current debt, whether you believe its $12 T, $17 T, or even $50 T…who knows what it really is though, but Id bet the low end is NOT the truth! LOL

I dont think most people can wrap their heads around how much money $1 Trillion actually is. It is a staggering amount.
 
Just a little example to realize how much $1 Trillion dollars actually is…

The US Govt spent $1 Trillon dollars from the time Lincoln was president up until president G. W. Bush!!! Thats includes EVERYTHING too!!! That is ALOT of time…so compare that to our current debt, whether you believe its $12 T, $17 T, or even $50 T…who knows what it really is though, but Id bet the low end is NOT the truth! LOL

I dont think most people can wrap their heads around how much money $1 Trillion actually is. It is a staggering amount.
That’s only if you fail to adjust for inflation, once you adjust for inflation you see that we actually breached the $1T/y 1942-1944 followed by spending dropped rapidly (demobilization) then started growing again permanently breaching $1T/y by the late 1960s.
 
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/SfmpEQ_OzWI/AAAAAAAAJ6k/0ZNwL47TfDc/s1600/retire.bmp

If a politician suggested raising retirement age he’d get beaten to death with canes and walkers at the ballot box.
Which is unfortunate. It will need to happen, I’ll vote for it if it’s part of an overall solution to our financial mess. I think a lot of folks would, again, if it’s laid out as an overall plan- one piece in the whole solution.

ETA: The system can’t continue in its current form, its a matter of if it will be a planned out change, or if we’ll kick the can down the road until it becomes a crash/emergent change with no prior planning, just done on the fly.
 
Two critical Supreme Court decisions relating to Social Security in the US.

1937 - Helvering vs Davis

This is the decision that allowed Social Security to survive following the pitched battles that accompanied it becoming law in 1935. Essentially the Supreme Court said Social Security Tax was constitutional as a mere exercise of Congress’s general taxation powers.

What’s important to us today is the language used to support the decision. I quote from the decision (bolded emphasis mine):
The proceeds of both (employee and employer) taxes are to be paid into the Treasury like internal-revenue taxes generally, and are not earmarked in any way.
In other words, there is no separate pot into which your (and your employer’s) FICA taxes go. No separate bucket of money marked “For FICA Benefits Only”. No formal account for Johnny and Janey Taxpayer funded with Johnny and Janey’s FICA contributions plus investment proceeds.

1960 - Fleming vs Nestor

The Supreme Court essentially ruled in this case that paying FICA taxes does not give anyone legal and/or contractual entitlement to FICA benefits. In other words, there is no contract. Benefits can be sliced and diced any which way as desired by Congress. They’ve already done this at least once, for instance, with the shift in age at which one is eligible to receive a full benefit. The authority that Congress had for doing this comes from this decision.

From a practical point of view, that which cannot continue to be paid as is … will not continue to be paid as is. Morality will have a hard time going against basic arithmetic. Initially, one can expect inflation to continue to eat away at benefits and COLA’s will always be less than inflation. Past history going back thousands of years teaches us this is how governments survive in the short run their own lack of fiscal discipline; they impose it on everyone but themselves. In the long run, they don’t survive without major upheaval or they don’t survive at all. The closer to the edge they get, the harder they work to extract revenue from the general population to keep it going.
 
I agree from a Catholic perspective-- everything I have is a gift from God. I am called upon to share what I have. What I am not called to do, is be envious of what others have acquired through their labors and dictate what they should do with it.
I agree also. From a true Catholic perspective-quotes from Pope Francis:
Just as the commandment “Thou shalt not kill” sets a clear limit in order to safeguard the value of human life, today we also have to say “thou shalt not” to an economy of exclusion and inequality. Such an economy kills. How can it be that it is not a news item when an elderly homeless person dies of exposure, but it is news when the stock market loses two points? This is a case of exclusion. Can we continue to stand by when food is thrown away while people are starving? This is a case of inequality. Today everything comes under the laws of competition and the survival of the fittest, where the powerful feed upon the powerless. As a consequence, masses of people find themselves excluded and marginalized: without work, without possibilities, without any means of escape.
In this context, some people continue to defend trickle-down theories which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world. This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naïve trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralized workings of the prevailing economic system. Meanwhile, the excluded are still waiting…. This imbalance is the result of ideologies which defend the absolute autonomy of the marketplace and financial speculation. Consequently, they reject the right of states, charged with vigilance for the common good, to exercise any form of control. A new tyranny is thus born, invisible and often virtual, which unilaterally and relentlessly imposes its own laws and rules.
 
I agree also. From a true Catholic perspective-quotes from Pope Francis:
Just as the commandment “Thou shalt not kill” sets a clear limit in order to safeguard the value of human life, today we also have to say “thou shalt not” to an economy of exclusion and inequality. Such an economy kills. How can it be that it is not a news item when an elderly homeless person dies of exposure, but it is news when the stock market loses two points? This is a case of exclusion. Can we continue to stand by when food is thrown away while people are starving? This is a case of inequality. Today everything comes under the laws of competition and the survival of the fittest, where the powerful feed upon the powerless. As a consequence, masses of people find themselves excluded and marginalized: without work, without possibilities, without any means of escape.
In this context, some people continue to defend trickle-down theories which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world. This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naïve trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralized workings of the prevailing economic system. Meanwhile, the excluded are still waiting…. This imbalance is the result of ideologies which defend the absolute autonomy of the marketplace and financial speculation. Consequently, they reject the right of states, charged with vigilance for the common good, to exercise any form of control. A new tyranny is thus born, invisible and often virtual, which unilaterally and relentlessly imposes its own laws and rules.
And let us not forget we have a personal responsibility to help the poor and needy. We must do more than rant about how others are not doing enough nor can we depend on the government to take care of this responsibility for us.
 

In this context, some people continue to defend trickle-down theories which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world. This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naïve trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralized workings of the prevailing economic system. Meanwhile, the excluded are still waiting…. This imbalance is the result of ideologies which defend the absolute autonomy of the marketplace and financial speculation. Consequently, they reject the right of states, charged with vigilance for the common good, to exercise any form of control.

“This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naïve trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralized workings of the prevailing economic system.”

Pope Francis quote regarding trickle down is just as applicable to those who trust in the state to act justly. Those countries where the sate has absolute control, or even substantial control over the economy, have just as much or more income disparity. In the states there is greater income disparity in Calfornia which has a much more progressive government weilding more regulation. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely- any system is flawed because it’s run by people and we are all subject to temptation, including the misuse of power. (not to mention a limited ability to understand all the consequences, permutations of decisions we make in a complex environment no matter how worthy our intentions.)

We don’t have a capitalist system in the US, we have a crony system which protects many companies from competition. The companies take risks and reap the rewards- but the negative consequences of bad decisions end up being placed on the taxpayer/general public vice the company leadership from bailouts and the fallacious “Too big to fail” is a crock. If those banks or car companies had been allowed to fail, it would have allowed better run companies to buy them out and significant discounts, take over facilities and loans, have profit margin to bargain with suppliers and debtors. It would have incentivized business owners/managers to make prudent decisions, disincentivesd bad decisions. Folks prone to higher risk who’d caused the debacle probably wouldn’t have been employable at the same level in other companies. Instead, they’re still around making a lot of money having transfereed the negative consequences to the taxpayers and ‘saved’ their company.
 
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styrgwillidar:
While California does have substantial income disparity it also has some of the strongest worker protections in the US. A major cause of the disparity is California’s massive agricultural sector which by nature of agriculture cannot compete with California’s highly developed white collar industries such as tech.
 
While California does have substantial income disparity it also has some of the strongest worker protections in the US. A major cause of the disparity is California’s massive agricultural sector which by nature of agriculture cannot compete with California’s highly developed white collar industries such as tech.
Texas also has a massive agricultural sector but does not have the income disparity California has.
 
While California does have substantial income disparity it also has some of the strongest worker protections in the US. A major cause of the disparity is California’s massive agricultural sector which by nature of agriculture cannot compete with California’s highly developed white collar industries such as tech.
usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/09/09/middle-class-mobility-oligarchs-wealth-distribution-column/15249645/

Looking forward to reading the book “The New Class Conflict”

California has a lot of problems. Aiding and abetting massive illegal immigration which creates an abundance/over-supply of unskilled labor. Depresses wages and eliminates opportunities for young folks. I saved a lot of money for college cleaning houses, doing yardwork, manual labor while I was in high school.

They’ve passed a lot of laws for environmental ideological reasons which have destroyed thousands of jobs across the state. Including restrictions based on a ‘study’ by an individual who turned out to have faked both his credentials and his data. Uncovered prior to the regualtions being put in place. But they went ahead anyway because it was inline with the ideology of the folks running CARB. And the individual is still employed by the state. Doing nothing to improve the water infrastructure in the state but trying to put billions into a bullet train, which won’t meet the cost, speed or service requirements that the voters approved as requirements. But they have protected folks in Marin county, the bullet train company (ies) are owned by well connected folks (married to congressman etc)the folks in Silicon Valley. While the agriculture industry has been denied water and had restrictions the folks in Nancy Pelosi’s district aren’t even being put on restrictions during a major drought. It’s very much a ‘who you know’ cronyism state.

The middle class is disappearing in this state.
 
They are moving to Texas.
Yeah, and I’m truly sorry to you Texans for that. They move, and then start voting for the exact same policies that created the mess that they’re fleeing from.
 
Yeah, and I’m truly sorry to you Texans for that. They move, and then start voting for the exact same policies that created the mess that they’re fleeing from.
Well, when they realize that not every state has the weather that California has, and experience their first summer of multiple 100 degree days, they start to support policies for cheaper energy 😃
 
Well, when they realize that not every state has the weather that California has, and experience their first summer of multiple 100 degree days, they start to support policies for cheaper energy 😃
Yeah, that’s one of the issues here. The folks in the more populous counties and where most of the wealthy live are along the coast with moderate weather where you really can get by quite nicely without much if any AC and very little requirement for heating. So passing requirements for utilities for XX% of their power to be from unreliable (in same cases non-existent) and expensive alternate energy doesn’t have much of an effect on them.

The much poorer folks inland dealing with extremes of temperature where they really do require AC in the summer and heating in the winter to keep grandma and the kids from dying are much harder hit by the policies. And they’re more spread out requiring more travel in their routine and ergo are harder hit by gasoline/diesel price hikes and taxes.
 
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