That was the parish I grew up in, back in the 50’s.Everyone asserts that there is so much more abuse today than in the past. Is that even true? An older priest posted on one thread that in the ‘good old days’ some of his brethern would whip through Mass in 15 minutes, mumble through the prayers, skip parts, etc. Is there an objective measure that things are worse, or is the new access to on-line and other resources just making people notice more?
Given the nature of your posts, I wonder if either you or TMC have ever really bothered to study the Mass. Perhaps you would have a greater understanding of why we do what we do as Catholics.That was the parish I grew up in, back in the 50’s.
Father grumpy, said the Mass in 15 minutes. His Mass had the most attendance. Father Piety, said the Mass in an hour, his Mass had average attendance. Father Grumpy, died a priest. Father Piety left the priesthood to get married, then became a priest in the Episcopal Church, where he serves to this day.
Jim
Just once I would like to have a conversation on this forum without being accused of ignorance. I have read the documents on the liturgy from VII. They do not say that changing one word of the Eucharistic Prayer invalidates the Sacrament. They express more concern about the matter used, really, but I have not heard that to be a common abuse. Maybe it was at the time. They do say that the priest is not allowed to make up his own prayer or use an unapproved prayer, but they do not say that doing so invalidates the Sacrament.Given the nature of your posts, I wonder if either you or TMC have ever really bothered to study the Mass. Perhaps you would have a greater understanding of why we do what we do as Catholics.
TMC, as far as showing you documentation, please read the Constitution on Sacred Liturgy (Second Vatican Council), Redemptionis Sacramentum and Sacramentum Caritatis. You might also avail yourself of the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (published in 2002). Perhaps by reading these documents you will gain some appreciation.
Jim, the Holy Father has begun the reform of the reform. He is taking a slow and deliberate pace. He has already started tackling Sacred Music.
I never claimed that they had that power, I am not knowledgable on that. But if they did say it then it is true was my point. I know that you cannot change the texts of the Eucharistic Prayer one bit. For the rest of the liturgy i dont know. I am willing to bet though there is very little room for change.I really don’t think this is true. Is there something in the Canon or somewhere else you can’t point me to?
Thanks for the clarification. I do not think the Church has said that, but benedictgal does so you should probably look at the docs yourself.I never claimed that they had that power, I am not knowledgable on that. But if they did say it then it is true was my point. I know that you cannot change the texts of the Eucharistic Prayer one bit. For the rest of the liturgy i dont know. I am willing to bet though there is very little room for change.
Also are you arguing for freedom with the Mass or for free license with the mass so that it may be changed however the local community wants.
TMC, no one is accusing you outright of ignorance. However, your own words don’t seem to help your cause. Not once have you given documentation or citations that would substantiate your point.Just once I would like to have a conversation on this forum without being accused of ignorance. I have read the documents on the liturgy from VII. They do not say that changing one word of the Eucharistic Prayer invalidates the Sacrament. They express more concern about the matter used, really, but I have not heard that to be a common abuse. Maybe it was at the time. They do say that the priest is not allowed to make up his own prayer or use an unapproved prayer, but they do not say that doing so invalidates the Sacrament.
I think there may have been some misunderstanding here. Or I may be way off. But if a priest makes up his own opening prayer then yes it is a liturgical abuse. But, as long as he keeps the Eucharistic prayer correct the mass is still valid. Yes?TMC, no one is accusing you outright of ignorance. However, your own words don’t seem to help your cause. Not once have you given documentation or citations that would substantiate your point.
When the priest makes up his own prayers, the Mass becomes ILLICIT. When he does not use the proper form and matter and when he does not have the intent, the Mass is INVALID.
I agree that making up his own prayers makes the Mass illicit. That is not the same as invalid. Improper matter likely makes the Sacrament invalid. I am not sure lack of intent does, but it matters, I think, on what is meant by intent.TMC, no one is accusing you outright of ignorance. However, your own words don’t seem to help your cause. Not once have you given documentation or citations that would substantiate your point.
When the priest makes up his own prayers, the Mass becomes ILLICIT. When he does not use the proper form and matter and when he does not have the intent, the Mass is INVALID.
That does make sense, but I think that although altering the Eucharistic prayer is considered a serious abuse, only the words of consecration are truly essential to validity. And I think that they need not be exact, but only good enough. The Mass may still be illicit, but the Sacrament won’t be invalid.I think there may have been some misunderstanding here. Or I may be way off. But if a priest makes up his own opening prayer then yes it is a liturgical abuse. But, as long as he keeps the Eucharistic prayer correct the mass is still valid. Yes?
There is a difference between illicit and just liturgical abuse.
I agree with you benedictgal that we should follow the rubrics to a t but I also think you are making too big a deal out of someone not. As long as the Eucharistic Prayer is done correctly it is okay. The Mass is valid, it may not be giving God the honor it is supposed to but it is not yet invalid. I think you have the right idea but you are really going a bit far in how extreem you are viewing this. The Rubrics shouldnt be thrown in the garbege, but also someone is not evil for wanting a different opening prayer. Now if you alter the Eucharistic prayer that goes over the line.
Hopefully that made sense.
your condescending attitude makes it almost impossible to have a conversation with you.Given the nature of your posts, I wonder if either you or TMC have ever really bothered to study the Mass. Perhaps you would have a greater understanding of why we do what we do as Catholics…
Pope John Paul II requested that seven discasteries create the document called Redemptionis Sacramentum because of reports of widespread liturgical abuse in the Mass. One of the discasteries belonged to then-Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith). Even as cardinal, Pope Benedict XVI said that no one has the right to make any changes to the rubrics. This has been repeated by Francis Cardinal Arinze, the Prefect for the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments.Thanks for the clarification. I do not think the Church has said that, but benedictgal does so you should probably look at the docs yourself.
I am not advocating free license, although I think that bishops or perhaps cardinals or geographic entities (like USCCB) of some kind should have some flexibility. My real point has always been that I don’t care very much what the rubrics are and don’t care to check the celebrant’s every word and move against them.
I have never accused you of being ignorant, although many of your posts do run contrary to Church teaching, especially your viewpoints on the Mass. If you love the Mass, then you should be greatly interested that it is celebrated reverently and according to the rubrics of the church. You may be older than I am, but I do detect some rebellious streak in your posts.benedictgal
your condescending attitude makes it almost impossible to have a conversation with you.
Just because I have different opinions than you, doesn’t make me ignorant about the Mass.
I’m probably older than you, and have lived in both pre-Vatican II days and post Vatican II days. I have studied the Mass, but more importantly, I love the Mass, especially where I can be a part of the Mass, both spiritually and physically.
I attend at NO Latin Mass frequently at a small Benedictine Monastery, near my home. I can assure you, the majority of Catholics in my parish, would be lost at that Mass. They would also not desire it in our parish.
Anyway, I’m not as ignorant as you think.
Jim