The Importance of Mary in Catholicism

[InspiritCarol]

No matter which way you look at it, we (Catholics) do deviate (one way or another) from the main point (Jesus) and find all sorts of other alternatives… The thing that bothers me the most is the amount of times at mass or any other religious gathering, when a Saint, or Mary is mentioned (or thought of) comparing to the amount of times that Jesus is.

I understand the importance of Mary and all others who were chosen by God for their specific duties throughout time, but we need to understand that Jesus is our living God (See Holy Spirit). All others are below God - so I don’t understand why we do not act accordingly.

Do we not understand the He is the way?

Dear One. Is it possible something is blinding you to what is in the hearts and minds of those surrounding you? How can you be so sure that every single moment of my Mass time in not completely and utterly devoted to God?

Cursed are those who seem wise to themselves, and who take pride in their knowledge! Isa 5:21 (From your favorite quotes).
This is so true. Thank you. It is indeed a curse to be worried all the time about who the people around you are praying to. It is truly sad that you think we worship other gods. Distraction is a favorite tool of Satan during church service (any service- not just Mass). It seems like your distraction that you might try to avoid is: worrying about what is in the heart of others.

Please don’t be hurt, I am only hearing kindness and concern from you. That is sweet. Thank you. Perhaps there are some who need this chastisement, but I do DEEPLY resent you applying it to Catholics as a whole. You are wrong. And it goes without saying that the same accusations of people being in church and not “getting it” could be applied to any congregation of any denomination on any day. The point is, we’re TRYING.

Please *read *my post (#13); especially the third paragraph. We have created beings as examples in how to live holier lives. To demean them demeans their creator. It is like saying we should not feel awe at the magnificence of the star filled night sky because it distracts us from God.

There are posters here whose words only drip with lies and hatred. The Evil One surely rejoices at the discord they attempt to sew; but paul c, I just wanted to let you in particular know that this thread couldn’t have helped me more and it was miraculously timely. The two links were surely spirit-sent in their perfection in addressing the questions of a large group of local Baptists. I had no idea such charitable and Biblical resources existed. Thank you moondweller for helping me defend Marian doctrine so efficiently and effectively.

 

[InspiritCarol]

Oh and thank you VERY much for the links **Thyme **and miriam1947. I can’t describe how perfect and timely your help has been both to me and my local Christian community at large. We are one small step closer to understanding each other.

 

[EricFilmer]

Actually; MD and I would both appreciate you keeping her in the context of Scripture alone.

Sola Scriptura is a doctrine created by Protestants that is not actually found in the Bible. Therefore, it is a teaching not found in the Bible that teaches someone to reject teachings not found in the Bible. So it is a doctrine that tells us to reject itself. Such a contradictory premise cannot be true, and likewise cannot truly come from God.

Read Psalm 119, then come back and make that statement. Thanks.

Are you suggesting that Psalm 119 teaches Sola Scriptura? That can’t possibly be true, or we would have to throw out every book in the Bible written after Psalm 119!

Veneration is worship you know; look it up if you don’t believe me and God spoke something on that issue somewhere in both the OT and NT.

According to your own church; veneration is whorship and Merriam Webster also agrees.

This is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church actually teaches on this topic:
Venerate means to “honor”. The Greek work for the honor that is due God alone is latria, which is understood in modern English as “worship.” The honor that we can give to fellow creatures is dulia. Mary is awarded by Catholics a special type of honor called hyper-dulia, acknowledging her as the mother of Jesus and likewise acknowledging the special role she played in salvation history, but the Catechism expressly teaches that this honor is still not the latria due God alone.

The 10 Commandments call us to honor our fathers and mothers, don’t they? Whatever you consider this kind of honor to be is in keeping with the honor Catholics give to Mary. The only difference is in terms of the manner of hyper-dulia that I described above.

And let me also add that Mary is the mother of every Christian, including you. Here’s why:

1. As taught in the New Testament, Jesus is the head of his Church, and we Christians make up the body.
2. The head of the Church, Jesus, has a mother: Mary.
3. The mother of the head is likewise the mother of the body. Therefore, Mary is the mother of every Christian.

Seeing as the 10 Commandments require us to honor our mothers, then what do you do, Calvin, to honor Mary? And what does your own church do? Get a school girl to dress up like her once a year at the Christmas pageant and then ignore her at all the other times during the year?

 

[po18guy]

No matter which way you look at it, we (Catholics) do deviate (one way or another) from the main point (Jesus) and find all sorts of other alternatives… The thing that bothers me the most is the amount of times at mass or any other religious gathering, when a Saint, or Mary is mentioned (or thought of) comparing to the amount of times that Jesus is.

I understand the importance of Mary and all others who were chosen by God for their specific duties throughout time, but we need to understand that Jesus is our living God (See Holy Spirit). All others are below God - so I don’t understand why we do not act accordingly.

Do we not understand the He is the way?

Oh, we have all seen that. But, it is not what the Church teaches. Then, we have an apparently self-professed “Calvinist” (I guess -who knows?) come in here with both guns blazing - and he doesn’t even adhere to what Calvin taught! Dude’s got a log in his eye.

But, the proper response is not to throw the baby out with the bath water. Many “bible” Christians, so as to distance themselves from the Catholic Church, are now doing what demons fear to do: demean the virgin of Isaiah 7:14.

Lord, help us!

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

You said "Mary was chosen by God (from the beginning of humanity ";

Who came first Jesus or Mary? If Jesus was God; why do you put Mary as a restriction on God? I thought Jesus was God; so why would there be no Jesus w/out Mary?

So w/out Mary there is no salvation?

If Jesus died another way, i.e. not by the Cross, is there no salvation?

Mary is as important as the Cross of Christ, for it is through Mary that Jesus entered the world, and it is with Mary that Jesus lived for 30 years, and Mary accompanied Jesus to His death, as it was through the Cross that we are saved.

God bless.

 

[paul_c]

No matter which way you look at it, we (Catholics) do deviate (one way or another) from the main point (Jesus) and find all sorts of other alternatives… The thing that bothers me the most is the amount of times at mass or any other religious gathering, when a Saint, or Mary is mentioned (or thought of) comparing to the amount of times that Jesus is.

I understand the importance of Mary and all others who were chosen by God for their specific duties throughout time, but we need to understand that Jesus is our living God (See Holy Spirit). All others are below God - so I don’t understand why we do not act accordingly.

Do we not understand the He is the way?

I don’t see it that way at all. The mass is all about Jesus- the entire Eucharistic prayer is about his passion. Sure, the priest may talk about Mary or the Saints during the homily, but in doing so gives Glory to Jesus, who they served. Remember, Saints are named because they show us the way to Jesus in heaven.

 

[paul_c]

Actually; MD and I would both appreciate you keeping her in the context of Scripture alone.

You see, Calvin, you and Moondweller have separated yourself from the Church and all her traditions, with the exception of scripture. Why, however, should we be subject to your self-imposed limitations? And just because you don’t accept help from the Church or from Mary, why shouldn’t we? That is purely your option, and it is indeed self limiting. As for me, I’ll take as much help as I can get on the road to Heaven. You know why we venerate Mary and the Saints, its because they are already in heaven and following them leads us there as well…

 

[paul_c]

I am enjoying the insightful discussion. If you already know what MD’s theology is on the topic & do not like it, then you can chose not to participate. I would not concern myself with what men see concerning intercession or prayer or anthing else, but I would be only concerned about what God has to say. Man can only harm the physical, God can harm the physical and the Spiritual soul.

Calvin, what are you talking about? Moondweller has barely been on this thread. He instigated it, made one comment , and then has disappeared. As for intercession. If you don’t want help, that’s fine and its your option. Its harder to get somewhere new (like Heaven) without a guide. But some people lie to do things on their own, even if its the hard way. So be it…

 

[Senecus]

Here is another example of Mary’s special role as spiritual mother to all people (John, not being a part of her immediate family, is now her son, and she his mother).

As a side note, this is another indicator of Mary’s perpetual virginity, as even today, in the Middle East, a familial son or daughter, would have the full responsibility to care for the widow/mother.

John 19:26

When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, “Dear woman, here is your son,”

John 19:27

and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.

 

[pablope]

You see, Calvin, you and Moondweller have separated yourself from the Church and all her traditions, with the exception of scripture. Why, however, should we be subject to your self-imposed limitations? And just because you don’t accept help from the Church or from Mary, why shouldn’t we? That is purely your option, and it is indeed self limiting. As for me, I’ll take as much help as I can get on the road to Heaven. You know why we venerate Mary and the Saints, its because they are already in heaven and following them leads us there as well…

Hey Paul C…i would not even bother…look at post #30 and 34…i was trying to start a meaningful dialogue…based on what his definitions were…look at his response in #34…i do not think he is here to talk…he is here to bash catholicism and make everone adhere to what he believed…which i would term self-righteousness…and score points for whereever he came from…

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

No matter which way you look at it, we (Catholics) do deviate (one way or another) from the main point (Jesus) and find all sorts of other alternatives… The thing that bothers me the most is the amount of times at mass or any other religious gathering, when a Saint, or Mary is mentioned (or thought of) comparing to the amount of times that Jesus is.

Why should you be concerned of the number times a saint or Mary is mentioned compared to how many times Jesus is referenced in the Holy Mass, when every time we are at Mass we are in front of the Real Presence of the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ?

I understand the importance of Mary and all others who were chosen by God for their specific duties throughout time, but we need to understand that Jesus is our living God (See Holy Spirit). All others are below God - so I don’t understand why we do not act accordingly.

If you really understood, then I doubt you would have said this.

Do we not understand the He is the way?

Yes I do. However, I think we must also understand that Jesus’ way for each one of us may be different, though the goal is the same. There are those who Jesus calls to commune with Him directly, while for others He wills that they also seek the intercession of the saints.

God bless.

 

[Matorin]

I don’t understand the argument “without Mary no Jesus”…Without Mary’s mother, no Jesus. Without Mary’s mother’s mother, no Jesus. without David, no Jesus. Without Abraham, no Jesus. etc finite regress?

also, to say that Jesus did not exist before Mary bore him is disingenuous at best…or perhaps your definition of existence is just completely different than theologians/philosophers…

 

[InspiritCarol]

I don’t understand the argument “without Mary no Jesus”…Without Mary’s mother, no Jesus. Without Mary’s mother’s mother, no Jesus. without David, no Jesus. Without Abraham, no Jesus. etc finite regress?

also, to say that Jesus did not exist before Mary bore him is disingenuous at best…or perhaps your definition of existence is just completely different than theologians/philosophers…

Yah, I think this is an oversimplification and putting God in a box.

**John 8:58 “Before Abraham was, I am”. **
I don’t think that was the intent of the argument and it certainly isn’t Catholic theology. Try to give the poster the benefit of the doubt. In any case it’s silly to speculate what it would be like without her. The point is she said a profound and incontrovertible “yes” to God. I think we all agree that that is, was, and ever shall be … a good thing.

 

[po18guy]

I don’t understand the argument “without Mary no Jesus”…Without Mary’s mother, no Jesus. Without Mary’s mother’s mother, no Jesus. without David, no Jesus. Without Abraham, no Jesus. etc finite regress?

Well then, why not Mary’s mother or grandmother to bear our Lord? Why not your mom or mine? Because Mary was predestined, since before time began, to bear the Son of God. She was chosen by God, and Gabriel was sent to her. Eve gave birth to sin through disobedience, and mankind fell from grace. Through obedience, Mary gave birth to Jesus, and mankind was restored to grace. Right hand, left hand. Breathe in, breathe out. Scripture plus logic. Seems simple enough.

also, to say that Jesus did not exist before Mary bore him is disingenuous at best…or perhaps your definition of existence is just completely different than theologians/philosophers…

Jesus is eternal. It is His human nature that we are talking about. Mary is mother of His human nature, so her human nature came before His, that’s all. Difficult?

 

[Matorin]

If the point you are making was “Mary’s mother gave birth to Mary before Mary gave birth to Jesus” I agree. I don’t see how anyone could not agree…but I fail to see how this is helpful?

In reference to “Mary is as important as the Cross of Christ, for it is through Mary that Jesus entered the world, and it is with Mary that Jesus lived for 30 years, and Mary accompanied Jesus to His death, as it was through the Cross that we are saved.”

Again, I think we have different definitions of things so I am getting riled up over here. By “the Cross” you mean the physical cross on Golgotha? Or do you mean the method of death (i.e. “on a tree”)? Or do you even mean that he didn’t have to die as payment? Tbh I’m not sure this is even worth talking about…

 

[ncgolf]

Actually; MD and I would both appreciate you keeping her in the context of Scripture alone.

I sense an alone mentality. It is Scripture alone, faith alone.

Your request is unbiblical.

 

[Thyme]

If the point you are making was “Mary’s mother gave birth to Mary before Mary gave birth to Jesus” I agree. I don’t see how anyone could not agree…but I fail to see how this is helpful?

In reference to “Mary is as important as the Cross of Christ, for it is through Mary that Jesus entered the world, and it is with Mary that Jesus lived for 30 years, and Mary accompanied Jesus to His death, as it was through the Cross that we are saved.”

As said before, Mary is the ark of the New Covenant. She is the pure tabernacle that God began His life on Earth in and who He was dependant upon as a child. The old ark also had to be kept away from impurity, which is why God chose Mary. Through God’s grace, she was conceived without sin and through her own will, was also sinless, which is why she is “full of grace”. This is also why the Angel Gabrial said “blessed art thou among women”. Even the Angels praise Mary.

God chose her specifically to be the tabernacle for the Saviour of the world. He loves her as the mother of His Son and Jesus as His mother. God didn’t just pick Mary out by random. The Jews had to wait a long time for the Messiah to be born.

Again, I think we have different definitions of things so I am getting riled up over here. By “the Cross” you mean the physical cross on Golgotha? Or do you mean the method of death (i.e. “on a tree”)? Or do you even mean that he didn’t have to die as payment? Tbh I’m not sure this is even worth talking about…

I’m not sure if I beleive that Mary is important as the cross, but she had such a major role in His Passion. God could have just appeared as a grown man and skip child-hood, but He didn’t. He was born into the world through the pure tabernacle/Theotokos, who Jesus appointed as our Mother and is now in Heaven praying for us .

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

In reference to “Mary is as important as the Cross of Christ, for it is through Mary that Jesus entered the world, and it is with Mary that Jesus lived for 30 years, and Mary accompanied Jesus to His death, as it was through the Cross that we are saved.”

Again, I think we have different definitions of things so I am getting riled up over here. By “the Cross” you mean the physical cross on Golgotha? Or do you mean the method of death (i.e. “on a tree”)?

Both.

Or do you even mean that he didn’t have to die as payment?

Of course Jesus didn’t have to die. He is God. If He wanted to He could just have said so and all debts of man due to sin would be forgiven. If Jesus really wanted to save us from our sins through suffering He can just as easily use a pin prick, for since He is God, He is Perfect, anything He does is of Infinite value.

That is why His Crucifixion is so stunning, so mind boggling, so awe and fear inspiring: that is how willing God is to show the depths and breadth of His love for us. Jesus was not forced by the Father to sacrifice Himself, nor was the Father coerced by the Son. It was by mutual agreement by all of the Trinity to give the world Himself and let Himself suffer the worst way to die to show how much He loves us.

Tbh I’m not sure this is even worth talking about…

And why not? Is how Jesus lived less important than how He died?

God bless.

 

[InspiritCarol]

+JMJ+
If Jesus died another way, i.e. not by the Cross, is there no salvation?

Mary is as important as the Cross of Christ, for it is through Mary that Jesus entered the world, and it is with Mary that Jesus lived for 30 years, and Mary accompanied Jesus to His death, as it was through the Cross that we are saved.

God bless.

Sorry I didn’t catch this sooner. Brother or sister, please don’t let yourself be baited. I’m sure you didn’t mean it that way, I mean, I can kind of see what you’re saying; but what you have just spoken is heresy.

I love Mary as much as the next person, but there is nothing more important in the history of the universe than Christ’s actual victory over sin and death on the cross. Mary was chapter 10, the crucifixion was the climax. Up until the point of death on the cross, Jesus could have turned away from us; the resurrection naturally follows from the crucifixion. Of course he rose from the dead, he’s God. The point is, the magnitude of the cross is incomparable to anything else ever, except maybe the creation story itself. I’m SURE I’m misunderstanding your intention. You couldn’t possibly be saying such.
“But we preach Christ crucified: unto the Jews indeed a stumbling block, and unto the Gentiles foolishness: But unto them that are called…Christ, the power of God and the wisdom of God.” ( I Corinthians 1:23-24)

The presence of Christ’s body on the cross does not mean that we ignore the Resurrection. Instead, it is a reminder to us that the bonds of sin were broken by Christ’s suffering and death (1 Peter 2:24).

CCC 620: Because “he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins” (I Jn 4:10). “God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself” (2 Cor 5:19).

Not he loved us and sent Mary to give birth to his Son… yes, the implication is there but to compare an implied grace to the incomprehensible grace that is Christ’s death on the cross is going too far. But that’s not what you meant, surely. Of course if you’re comparing Mary to a couple of pieces of wood stuck together, I’d say you erred in the opposite direction. …

Let us pray for more lucid discourse in the future.


Thank you God for this opportunity to grow in our appreciation and understanding of you and your amazing epic that spans all of time. We love You and praise You for such as this.

“nuntym”,May you walk in truth and righteousness and may the peace of the Holy Spirit be with you.

 

[nuntym]

Sorry I didn’t catch this sooner. Brother or sister, please don’t let yourself be baited. I’m sure you didn’t mean it that way, I mean, I can kind of see what you’re saying; but what you have just spoken is heresy.

I love Mary as much as the next person, but there is nothing more important in the history of the universe than Christ’s actual victory over sin and death on the cross. Mary was chapter 10, the crucifixion was the climax. Up until the point of death on the cross, Jesus could have turned away from us; the resurrection naturally follows from the crucifixion. Of course he rose from the dead, he’s God. The point is, the magnitude of the cross is incomparable to anything else ever, except maybe the creation story itself. I’m SURE I’m misunderstanding your intention. You couldn’t possibly be saying such.
“But we preach Christ crucified: unto the Jews indeed a stumbling block, and unto the Gentiles foolishness: But unto them that are called…Christ, the power of God and the wisdom of God.” ( I Corinthians 1:23-24)

The presence of Christ’s body on the cross does not mean that we ignore the Resurrection. Instead, it is a reminder to us that the bonds of sin were broken by Christ’s suffering and death (1 Peter 2:24).

CCC 620: Because “he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins” (I Jn 4:10). “God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself” (2 Cor 5:19).

Not he loved us and sent Mary to give birth to his Son… yes, the implication is there but to compare an implied grace to the incomprehensible grace that is Christ’s death on the cross is going too far. But that’s not what you meant, surely. Of course if you’re comparing Mary to a couple of pieces of wood stuck together, I’d say you erred in the opposite direction. …

Let us pray for more lucid discourse in the future.


Thank you God for this opportunity to grow in our appreciation and understanding of you and your amazing epic that spans all of time. We love You and praise You for such as this.

“nuntym”,May you walk in truth and righteousness and may the peace of the Holy Spirit be with you.

Can you please read what I posted just above your post? Thank you and God bless.