The Importance of Mary in Catholicism

[moondweller]

I have no objection to how you represent the Catholic postion. It comes from the heart. I’m just trying to help you with your frustration. If you don’t want to get frustrated, don’t ask Moondweller questions. He doesn’t do questions. He makes statements. I humbly suggest that you do the same. The Hail Mary is directly from scripture, the first part from Gabriel, the second part from Elizabeth. Moondweller knows this so he’s not going to bite on it. So don’t phrase it as a trap. Just tell him why you think this prayer from scripture is part of our justification to pray to Mary and let him refute it.

Was Gabriel praying to her? Was Elizabeth?

 

[StTommyMore]

Was Gabriel praying to her? Was Elizabeth?

Neither were praying to her, but she was given honor more than would have been expected. Gabriel greeted her as royalty and Elizabeth was much more deferential than would be expected in the situation.

 

[Miriam1947]

Well over 500 posts now and I really don’t see any point in continuing to subscribe.

Have a wonderful weekend all, God Bless.

 

[panevino]

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidv
How does one obey? By “consenting” to the one giving the command.

Different words - same result.

So, if you have a son and you give him a command and he obeys, that means he gives you consent to command?

My children occasionally disobey.
When they obey, they are making a choice to do so.
As much as I wish it was not a choice,particularly when I really need them to hurry up, it’s still in them to decide to obey or not.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Mary’s importance in Catholicism wasn’t by Her choice. Its Gods will and a path and badge She walks and wears in humility,love, and much compassion and sorrow.

Mary had a split second choice to make when the Angel appeared. She chose and followed God and little did She know just how much God followed Her, till that Angel arrived. I’m sure for years to come that was a shock and Truth She had to come to terms with. But apparently He did follow Mary. Because He certainly thought much of Her to say the least. Then there was a baby in front of Her? And that baby was special, that was the future of Man. You read what Isaiah called that Son.

In essense God had to pick a Home for himself…you can call it by any name you want, womb, vessel, ARK in essense it was His Home. Where do you feel safe? Where do you feel loved? God felt all that with Mary and Knew Mary was right before Mary knew Mary was right. Gods choice wasn’t accidental or a wanton act. This is God we are talking about who could have chose anyone, anyone in the entire World. He chose Mary.

Now your read the Bible…tell me, did he chose Wrong? Not by a long-shot. Marys role becomes of great significance.

Matter of fact I believe in my Heart God wasn’t 100% positive about how the end would arrive with His choice’s with human’s. He didn’t know it would be the Cross at the time He chose Mary. Have you read about the Cross? If He foreseen all of that, then the words with Pilot serve no justice to God. And I submitt it was no different with Mary than Eve or Adam. The ultimate outcome of Free-Will was not a known. Oh, He made a very great choice and without a doubt “He knew more than we ever will.” My Point is this…Mary proved to be a better choice than even God suspected from the on-set. Look and Read the list of how many prove to disappoint in the Bible? The list is staggering as is the journey “all” must partake. No-One said it was going to be easy. But the reward at the end of the road is a known. And that my friend is much greater than materialism, lust, sexual immorality, dope, power, pain or anything else that facinates one here.

What Mary is in Catholicism is a Beacon of Light, Gods Light, a path followed and completed. One who made that trip down a difficult unpaved path and is human and serves as an inspiration to all who seek the path of Christ and God. Why isn’t there more written in the Bible? I don’t know my friends, but there certainly are some inspiring scriptures from Luke, Isaiah, and John. I believe the fact that the Bible doesn’t go and on, is because Mary was human and there’s the humanity that must be completed in Her life.

Mary didn’t need constant visitation’s from God the Father, the Son of God lived with Mary. She knew God was Real, Alive and Right there in front of Her daily. Not many saw the face of Jesus, she and Joseph seen it more than all.

Marys importance is Bible and for all to see, the fact she became important to Catholics only shows that Catholics chose to believe in Mary. Thats a secondary factor. The factor of relevance is that Mary is there for all who stumble down the path God has placed before you. She is there to help You walk that path, because She my friends has walked that path.

Mary walked a path no Mother should ever have to walk. She watched a Son die in front of Her. How crushing! And She knew that He was God, and the path was predestined and chosen. That didn’t make the hurt any less?

Now the sensationalizm I know nothing except what I read like you. Its there for you to make whatever you want out of it. I can assure you this, I know personally a few who have Prayed to the Blessed Mother their entire life. There’s no doubt in these minds. These are good christians. The Monday night Mass of the Novena of the Miraculous Medal alone is amazing. Have you ever seen and entire Church Pray the Rosary? Powerfull to say the least and the Mass’s grows constantly. Don’t take my word, see for yourself and talk to these Souls. You can listen to their testimony.

I spoke to a Caholic Priest at an Italian-American Church by me recently. The conversation came around to the Blessed Mother, it was Holy Rosary Church. He looked me straight in the eye, and said “Oh you mean the Children of the Rosary” Wasn’t a doubt in that mans’s mind, none. Nor will you find that doubt anywhwere in this Church.

The only thing I have heard is “Oh you don’t HAVE TO do that”. Many in the church will tell you that, especially the males. There’s no-one placing Mary as Goddess, equal to, or above God. There’s no sense that Mary does anything but interceed for God, not a bit, you won’t find that. If that is you search? You’ll be disappointed, it doesn’t exist and I been in this Chruch 55-years at the same Parish.

Those who chose to follow Mary, however they arrived at that path, found a path to God they never knew before? That does become apparent! Just like everyone else in Christology, with some, Mary was a learned behavior from their parents from day one. With others, somehow either through other’s intercession of Pray or seeking God they found Mary. Maybe God placed them on that path in his Mercy for their search? I don’t know all the answers just a few. But I know every one of them will tell you they found something they know in there heart is a Truth of God, and a path to God.

I also get the distinct feeling that many somehow feel grounded in Faith through the Blessed Mother. Somehow they feel safer with God though Mary. Maybe they feel Mary is more available for them, maybe she is? I don’t honestly know. I still remain attentive to these faithfull followers of Christ.

Myself? I Pray the Rosary daily. I’m convinced on the Blessed Mother’s role with God! And I"m convinced all in Christianity will be at some point in there life.

God Bless, GT

 

[moondweller]

Did God respect Mary’s free will? Or did He simply force her to bear His son against her will?

Nothing was “forced.” Mary was an orthodox, Jewish woman of faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. She believed the words spoken to her by Gabriel (Lk. 1:45 contrasted with Lk. 1:19-20).

Same with salvation. God forces salvation on no one. They “believe” the good news preached to them regarding Christ, His sacrificial work and bodily resurrection, and “by grace,” “through faith,” salvation is gifted to them by God (Eph. 2:8-9). And He truly does SAVE them. He doesn’t “potentially” save them (which is no salvation at all).

 

[StTommyMore]

Nothing was “forced.” Mary was an orthodox, Jewish woman of faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. She believed the words spoken to her by Gabriel (Lk. 1:45 contrasted with Lk. 1:19-20).

Same with salvation. God forces salvation on no one. They “believe” the good news preached to them regarding Christ, His sacrificial work and bodily resurrection, and “by grace,” “through faith,” salvation is gifted to them by God (Eph. 2:8-9). And He truly does SAVE them. He doesn’t “potentially” save them (which is no salvation at all).

Simple belief is not enough. Faith alone is a heresy with no support whatsoever from the Scriptures if you understand the content and unity of Scripture.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Was Gabriel praying to her? Was Elizabeth?

Actually, in the sense that the word prayer was used, then and now, by ALL Christians until relatively recent times when SOME took it upon themselves to ‘change the meaning’. . .yes, yes they were.

You see, the word ‘prayer’ does not mean “communication to GOD ALONE.”

Prayer is a communication, a request, to any person.

Examine, if you will, our friend William Shakespeare, whose use of the English language right at the time of our Protestant brothers Cranmer (Book of Common Prayer, Anglican) and the KJV Bible would have been the same, and understood as the same, by those Protestants.

What does Will say? “Prithee, my friends” WIll has his characters say, to not just kings or lords but to humble shepherds and fools.

Prithee --PRAY THEE. “I ask of thee/you.”

Will and even the early Protestants knew that prayer was a request of ANY person.

One would ‘pray’ to one’s fellows for anything from an answer to a question to a boon (reward).

So yes, guess what, both Gabriel and Elizabeth ‘prayed’ to Mary. Gabriel made a request of her in announcing the Incarnation. And Elizabeth was even more specific. “PRAY THEE” (I ask thee), WHO AM I THAT THE MOTHER OF MY LORD SHOULD COME TO ME??"

Prayer. To Mary. RIGHT IN SCRIPTURE.

 

[Pax]

Was Gabriel praying to her? Was Elizabeth?

MD in Christ,

The answer to that question in the case of Gabriel is “no”, but the answer in Elizabeth’s case it is "yes. The word pray means “to ask”. Elizabeth “asks” Mary:

And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?(see Luke 1:43)

Notice the awe and wonder in that question and also notice what else was said by Elizabeth.

Luke 1:41-44
And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb;** and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit** and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy.

These are important and instructive verses that show Mary as an important and powerful instrument of God’s grace, and they show the great deference and reverence that Elizabeth shows toward the mother of our Lord and Savior.

God bless.

 

[moondweller]

Actually, in the sense that the word prayer was used, then and now, by ALL Christians until relatively recent times when SOME took it upon themselves to ‘change the meaning’. . .yes, yes they were.

So, based on your “ancient” definition of prayer, you pray to me via this thread, and I to you. When Mary spoke to Gabriel she was praying back to him. And when God speaks to Satan God is praying to Satan.

You see, the word ‘prayer’ does not mean “communication to GOD ALONE.”

When prayer is demonstrated in Scripture can you show me where it is addressed to anyone other than God?

Prayer is a communication, a request, to any person.

I don’t see Gabriel “requesting” anything from Mary nor Mary “requesting” anything from Gabriel, except a clarification which would be defined as simple communication between two persons.

So yes, guess what, both Gabriel and Elizabeth ‘prayed’ to Mary. Gabriel made a request of her in announcing the Incarnation.

The Annunciation was a prayer request?

In Scripture we’re encouraged to pray FOR others, but I have yet to find the instruction for us to pray one to another - much less find an example of it.

And Elizabeth was even more specific. “PRAY THEE” (I ask thee), WHO AM I THAT THE MOTHER OF MY LORD SHOULD COME TO ME??"

This is old English. Like the phrase, “Pray tell.” It’s not a form of prayer. It’s just an expression.

Sorry, but this whole line of reasoning is quite bogus.

Prayer. To Mary. RIGHT IN SCRIPTURE.

Truthfully, not found in Scripture.

 

[moondweller]

Luke 1:41-44
And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy.​

These are important and instructive verses that show Mary as an important and powerful instrument of God’s grace, and they show the great deference and reverence that Elizabeth shows toward the mother of our Lord and Savior.

God bless.

The baby leaped in her womb not because of Mary but because of the Child conceived in her. C’mon Pax.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

I just learned quite a bit from you all, Pax and Tantum ergo. Those proofs make a WHOLE lot of sense.

Moondweller,
I will engage in debate on your level. Where in Scripture does it say that Elizabeth’s son leapt in her womb only because of the Child? Clearly, Scripture does NOT indicate your idea. In fact, it indicates our view of it.

 

[Pax]

The baby leaped in her womb not because of Mary but because of the Child conceived in her. C’mon Pax.

MD in Christ,

I never said exactly why the baby leaped in Elizabeth’s womb. Instead, I showed that scripture clearly demonstrates that Mary was God’s instrument in making that happen. Please carefully, read, understand, and appreciate what is given to you both from scripture and from us.

God bless.

 

[Pax]

The baby leaped in her womb not because of Mary but because of the Child conceived in her. C’mon Pax.

MD in Christ,

I’m going to play your own game and turn the tables on you. Where does it say in Luke “that the baby leaped in her womb because of the child conceived in her?”

God bless.

 

[panevino]

Nothing was “forced.” Mary was an orthodox, Jewish woman of faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. She believed the words spoken to her by Gabriel (Lk. 1:45 contrasted with Lk. 1:19-20).

Same with salvation. God forces salvation on no one. They “believe” the good news preached to them regarding Christ, His sacrificial work and bodily resurrection, and “by grace,” “through faith,” salvation is gifted to them by God (Eph. 2:8-9). And He truly does SAVE them. He doesn’t “potentially” save them (which is no salvation at all).

She was obedient

Luke 1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.
.
Eve and Adam believed and were disobedient. Gen 3

 

[Miguel_Sastre]

“HAIL MARY, FULL OF GRACE, THE LORD IS WITH THEE. BLESSED ART THOU AMONG WOMEN AND BLESSED IS THE FRUIT OF THY WOMB, JESUS.”

What is wrong with this prayer?

I’ll bite.

1. Two texts of scripture are being taken out of their literary context (which has nothing to do with prayer) and joined together in another context to form a “prayer” to be recited. This sort of prayer seems to resemble the very kinds of prayers, popular in Jesus’ day, that he nevertheless condemns as vain repetition.
2. If it be objected that it is repetitious but not “vain,” I would reply that it’s the repeated recital of words that is precisely what causes it to be vain. It seems to me that Jesus wanted us to “pray prayers,” not “say prayers”
3. The prayer is directed to a creature. Is there an example of anyone in the entire history of the Bible ever praying to a creature? Since prayer is a form of worship, then wouldn’t the very act of praying to a creature constitute worship of that creature?
4. "I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. But he said to me, ‘Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God’” (Revelation 22:8-9).

If we can’t do that with angels, how is it permissible to do that with Mary?

 

[panevino]

I’ll bite.

…

1. If it be objected that it is repetitious but not “vain,” I would reply that it’s the repeated recital of words that is precisely what causes it to be vain. It seems to me that Jesus wanted us to “pray prayers,” not “say prayers”

agree with “pray prayers” ! Any catholic would. Rosary does not automatically = “say prayers”.
Mat26:44 And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.

Mark 14:39 And again he went away, and prayed, and spake the same words.

Rev 4: 8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about [him]; and [they were] full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

1. The prayer is directed to a creature. Is there an example of anyone in the entire history of the Bible ever praying to a creature? Since prayer is a form of worship, then wouldn’t the very act of praying to a creature constitute worship of that creature?

Ps 148: 2 Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his

1. "I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. But he said to me, ‘Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God’” (Revelation 22:8-9).

If we can’t do that with angels, how is it permissible to do that with Mary?

Who said it was permissible to worship Mary?

 

[StTommyMore]

I’ll bite.

1. Two texts of scripture are being taken out of their literary context (which has nothing to do with prayer) and joined together in another context to form a “prayer” to be recited. This sort of prayer seems to resemble the very kinds of prayers, popular in Jesus’ day, that he nevertheless condemns as vain repetition.
2. If it be objected that it is repetitious but not “vain,” I would reply that it’s the repeated recital of words that is precisely what causes it to be vain. It seems to me that Jesus wanted us to “pray prayers,” not “say prayers”
3. The prayer is directed to a creature. Is there an example of anyone in the entire history of the Bible ever praying to a creature? Since prayer is a form of worship, then wouldn’t the very act of praying to a creature constitute worship of that creature?
4. "I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. But he said to me, ‘Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God’” (Revelation 22:8-9).

If we can’t do that with angels, how is it permissible to do that with Mary?

Pray means to ask. That is all. if it is inappropriate to ask Mary or any of the angels and saints to intercede for us, then it is also inappropriate to ask any of your friends, your pastor or anyone else to intercede. Of course you could argue that the saints are “dead.” But this incorrect. In fact, quite the opposite is true. The saints in heaven are more alive than you or I. They are alive without their accursed sinful nature. And they are interceding for us, and all we have to do is ask for their intercession, and they are more than happy to pray for us, their friends still fighting the good fight, those of is still working out their salvation.

 

[adrift]

I’ll bite.

1. Two texts of scripture are being taken out of their literary context (which has nothing to do with prayer) and joined together in another context to form a “prayer” to be recited. This sort of prayer seems to resemble the very kinds of prayers, popular in Jesus’ day, that he nevertheless condemns as vain repetition.
2. If it be objected that it is repetitious but not “vain,” I would reply that it’s the repeated recital of words that is precisely what causes it to be vain. It seems to me that Jesus wanted us to “pray prayers,” not “say prayers”
3. The prayer is directed to a creature. Is there an example of anyone in the entire history of the Bible ever praying to a creature? Since prayer is a form of worship, then wouldn’t the very act of praying to a creature constitute worship of that creature?
4. "I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. But he said to me, ‘Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God’” (Revelation 22:8-9).

If we can’t do that with angels, how is it permissible to do that with Mary?

1. Just because a prayer is repeated does not mean it is vain.

Jesus isn’t condemning repetition in prayer; he’s condemning vain prayer. When Jesus said, “Do not babble like the pagans, who think that they will be heard because of their many words” (Matthew 6:7, NAB), he was referring to a belief of the pagans that a god would not listen to your prayer unless you used his correct title, and the title would change every day. Thus, the pagans would begin their prayer with every title they could think of in order to make sure their prayers would be heard (e.g., “O Great Zeus, O Master of Olympia, O Great Father Zeus. . . .”) Jesus tells us this is vain because pagan gods don’t exist, and when we pray to God he hears all our prayers. We don’t have to worry about getting the right title.

In fact, Scripture gives us many examples of repetitive prayer. For example, in Matthew 26:36–46, Jesus prayed the same prayer three times. In Revelation 4:8, four living creatures are around and within the throne, and day and night they do not cease to say, “Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty.” And then there’s the tax collector in Luke 18:9–14 who is beating his breast repeatedly and praying, “God, be merciful to me, a sinner!” And let’s not forget Luke 11:1–4, where Jesus tells us how to pray: He gives us the Lord’s Prayer. Since most Christians pray the Lord’s Prayer from time to time, they are all “guilty” of repetitious prayer. But it is not vain prayer—after all, we merely are doing as Jesus taught us.

Any prayer can be prayed in vain. What makes a prayer efficacious is the attitude of the heart (cf. CCC 2559). And sadly, “If our heart is far from God, the words of prayer are in vain” (CCC 2562; cf. Matt. 15:8–9).

Jesus says explicitly, “Pray then like this.” He then goes on to teach us to pray the Lord’s Prayer (the Our Father). If Jesus was against standardized prayers, why did he give us one to pray? And I presume you would agree that he wanted us to pray this on many occasions.

I agree that the Lord’s Prayer is a model of prayer, one that we can use as a basis for other prayers. But since he says explicitly, “Pray like this,” I don’t think we can exclude a repetitious use of this prayer. After all, if this is a perfect prayer coming directly from the mouth of the Lord himself, we might be in danger of ignoring his command if we don’t pray it often.

1. This prayer uses scripture. It does not address Mary as a god. Therefore it is not worship. The only time it address Mary is to ask for her to “pray for us”. Just like you would ask your friend.
2. John says specifically that he fell down to worship. Let me give you an example. I knock off a vase from a table. Is that vandalism? It would depend on my intent. It would depend if I deliberatly knocked it off or not. By definition of the word worship you must intend to give homage to a divine person. John said he was worshiping therefore there is not doubt about his intent. We do not intend worship to Mary. Therefore by definition there is no worship. Saint Worship try this link for a better understanding of the word worship.

 

[Cat_Herder]

When prayer is demonstrated in Scripture can you show me where it is addressed to anyone other than God?I don’t see Gabriel “requesting” anything from Mary nor Mary “requesting” anything from Gabriel, except a clarification which would be defined as simple communication between two persons.

That is all that prayer is, really. Ask any lawyer. All legal pleadings end with a prayer. According to human tradition, you have redefined the word “prayer” to mean communication with God. But let’s put aside your tradition and look at the Bible.

One of the two persons, Gabriel, is an angel. I shouldn’t have to tell you that the Bible is chock full of other communications between humans and angels, many of which are requests (Daniel 8:17, Genesis 18:1-4, etc).

What happens when we die?

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 22:30[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Mark 12:25[/BIBLEDRB]

Humans in heaven, saints, are like the angels. Talking to angels is fine and is done throughout the Bible. So then is talking, praying, to saints. And that explains what is going on around God’s altar throughout the book of Revelation. If you think all of that is symbolic, then I have to wonder if your faith in the promise of eternal life made by Jesus Christ is also symbolic.