The Indult

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deogratias:
That does not mean that I can’t question the need to repeatedly post the same link and I do believe it is discouraged in forum rules if I read them correctly. I would like an apology.
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You have my most humble apology! I took your post out of context, sorry!
 
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Mandi:
I don’t always read all threads, so I see nothing wrong with posting the same thing in various threads. Sometimes I find I repeat myself but feel the subjects require the same answer or thought.

It would appear to me that deogratias does not encourage attendance at an Indult Mass??? Which is very interesting considering he has chosen a Latin pen name???

The Latin Mass is the MOST Beautiful thing on the planet!
I say post your site again!
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Mandy, it seems you are a very goog Catholic. Amen to that. I really enjoy reading your very humble threads and posts here.
Anyway, yes, TRUE: The Latin Tridentine Mass is VERY beuriful, and I would also say very catholic.
God bless, misericordie:tiphat:
 
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misericordie:
Mandy, it seems you are a very goog Catholic. Amen to that. I really enjoy reading your very humble threads and posts here.
Anyway, yes, TRUE: The Latin Tridentine Mass is VERY beuriful, and I would also say very catholic.
God bless, misericordie:tiphat:
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I meant to say a very GOOD Catholic.
Long live Pope JOhn Paul’s document: “Motu Propio Ecclesia Dei” of 1988.
SAPIENTIA ET DOCTRINA!
 
I wish I had an indult parish by my house. St.Florian’s church would be great for this but this church is to big for a small Indult Community.St.Ladislaus’s or Our Lady Queen of Apostles would also be good for the TLM. All these churches are in Detroit’s small neighbor Detroit
 
I thought I read that Detroit would soon be having an Indult Mass.

I am just happy to have one in my Diocese even though it is a 30 minute drive for me.
 
I heard that the meeting discussed in cruxnews was in april. The bishop said he would allow it soon but its been4 months.
 
Don’t despair - it can’t be accomplished with just permission.

Our Bishop announced we would have ours in 3 months but those three months were needed to train altar boys, order missals, grant willing priests faculties and believe it or not train priests and determine what suitable parish would be most centrally located for all. Then there had to be a time for it to be held that was not already being used.

We have had 7 Masses so far but still having “growing pains”. Priests who celebrated the Tridentine Mass 40 years ago may now be too old to remember correctly or can’t physically manage. Many newer priests are not adept with Latin.

So there are many things to consider and need to be done to get this going at this late stage. Keep praying and be patient with your Bishop and Thank God he has granted the Indult for your Diocese.
 
Actually Deogratias,

Detroit is pretty lucky. One priest,the pastor of a Latin NO Mass community, drives down to Toledo[70 miles] to say the TLM after his parish Mass. But the bishop hasn’t even granted official permission. The article of cruxnews was from a secret meeting of priests in Detroit which most other people didn’t know about.
 
I attended a Tridentine Mass once. Since I’ve heard so many talk about how wonderful it is I was curious to find out for myself. There does seem to be more of a sense of mystery about it, probably because of the Latin and there are parts where you can’t hear what the priest is saying. However, by what right do we criticize the Norvus Ordo? I think we all need to be careful about how we react to what the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, and 2,000 years of accumulated wisdom and experience, gives us for the benefit of the whole Body of Christ. I’m sure we’ve all told our parents that we don’t want to eat our vegetables, but we know now they are good for us and many of us probably like them now.
 
That’s unfortunate and I hope Crux News by leaking the story has not put this in jeapardy.
 
I do not think what you view as criticizing the normative Mass is what most are doing - what they are doing is criticizing the liturgical abuses which take place a many of the normative liturgies across the U.S.

Both Indult and Normative Masses are valid and licit and both deserve respect as do the people who attend them. Many Catholics may not realize that a condition of permitting the Indult Mass is accepting the validity of the Missae Ordo of 1970. If you attend an Indult Mass using the 1962 Missal but deny the validity of the MO of 1970 you are being disobedient to the Church.

If you expect the Novos Ordo to be done correctly without abuse, you are pefectly within your rights however and RS tells us this and says we are obligated to report such abuses to our Bishops and if necessary to the Holy See.
 
It does seem that too many people criticize the Novus Ordo itself. The attitude seems to be, the Tridentine Mass is not only “better”, but really the “true” mass. Many people draw a link between the Novus Ordo and liturgical abuses. It’s as if, well, if there were no changes made to the Mass, there would be no abuses. The abuses seem to be caused by ignorance, disobedience, or “the spirit of Vatican II”.
 
I belong to a Novus Ordo parish, so that is what I normally attend. I do, however, go to the Indult Traditional Latin Mass on a semi-regular basis (every couple of months).

If I could have my preference, I would like the Traditional Latin Mass every week in my home parish. Alas, that does not seem likely anytime soon.

Since it is what I normally attend, I obviously accept the validity of the Missa Normativa. That is not to say, however, that I think it was a wise thing to have been instituted.

Frankly, if it was so important to have Mass in the vernacular, they should have stuck with the 1965 Missal.

I never knew the Traditional Mass as a child, so I do not prefer it out of mere nostalgia, but prefer it because it is so reverent to Our Blessed Lord, and emphasizes the sacrificial aspect of the Mass so much more than the Missal of 1970.
 
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guse:
Many people draw a link between the Novus Ordo and liturgical abuses. It’s as if, well, if there were no changes made to the Mass, there would be no abuses. The abuses seem to be caused by ignorance, disobedience, or “the spirit of Vatican II”.
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It’s hard for those of us who don’t remember the pre-Vatican II Church not to associate the new Mass with liturgical abuse, since we are surrounded by it. It may not seem fair, but it does seem that with all the variations allowed, it is probably at least a little more susceptible to liturgical abuse.

And, when I go to the Traditional Latin Mass, I do not see extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion (which are used habitually in most parishes, regardless of true necessity), “children’s liturgy” (sometimes taught with non-Catholic or even non-Christian materials), hand-holding for the Our Father, changed “gender inclusive” readings, awful ICEL translations, tabernacle down the hall, hippie folk song “hymns,” etc., etc.

So, for many people, the TLM is a breath of fresh air.

I am fortunate to be in a parish with a young, orthodox priest who is gradually cleaning up things. But, many, many Catholics who attend the NO Mass are not so fortunate. For them, and for all Catholics, a truly “wide and generous” application of the TLM would be a very positive thing.
 
The magesterium of the church and most catholics need to be honest about the bad state of the church, esp. in the liturgy. The documents of VII concerning the liturgy (SC) are way ambiguous and must be interpreted in light of tradition. How has communion in the hand, lay ministers of the eucharist, physically active participation, women lectors/altar servers, complete vernacularization, removal of altar rails, fasting laxity, priest facing the people, the disuse of gregorian chant, and modern church design to name a few benefited the laity? What are the fruits?

I think your getting cheated going to a mass that has the above abuses. You should go to a Pre-Vatican II rite mass, or Eastern Liturgy to really experience the mystery of the liturgy.
 
The Novus Ordo was given to us by the Church that Christ established. What right do we have to say that it shouldn’t have been instituted? We have a right to a Mass free of abuses. I believe the Novus Ordo is the Mass. The Tridentine Mass is allowed. The same thing is happening at either Mass, Calvary made present and the joining of our Liturgy with the eternal heavenly liturgy. The Mass is heaven on earth.
 
What right do we have to say that it shouldn’t have been instituted?
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Nobody is saying that the NO mass shouldn’t have been instituted. All of the abuses i mention are rubics or disciplinary in matter. How much of the mass in which is celebrated today was the vision of the fathers of VII and how much is of novelty? Are you saying that mass facing the people or communion in the hand is of divine inspiration?
 
Most of the things you mention are not in the documents of Vatican II.
How has communion in the hand, lay ministers of the eucharist, physically active participation, women lectors/altar servers, complete vernacularization, removal of altar rails, fasting laxity, priest facing the people, the disuse of gregorian chant, and modern church design
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Let’s take communion in the hand - it is by special Indult and is not the normative in all countries.
adoremus.org/0203CommunionHand.html

Complete vernacularization was never the intent.

There was no instruction to remove altar rails.

Fasting laxity began before Vatican II.

The N.O. Mass can be said entirely in Latin.

Gregorian chant is still encouraged, not discouraged

Female altar servers is also by indult

And nowhere did it say to turn Churches into auditorium, rip out the kneelers, discard confessionals and toss all the statuary in the dump pile. adoremus.org/Opera_Artis.html

All these changes and/or abuses came about AFTER Vatican II and were not the intent of Vatican II.

The priest facing the people, I agree was a big mistake, especially during the Eucharistic Prayer and it seems Cardinal Ratzinger agrees - adoremus.org/0500-Ratzinger.html

Somehow the rule of “give an inch take a mile” seemed to be liberallly applied after Vatican II and many things have been done in the name of Vatican II which never should have occurred.

This said, I agree that one who objects to these practices, whatever caused them, will find the Tridentine Mass more satisfying and I am one of those.
 
What is the meaning of “by indult”? I’ve seen it used on this thread in relation to the Tridentine Mass, and to certain things in the Novus Ordo. For example, it was mentioned that female altar servers are by indult. Also, some of the things mentioned like the total use of the vernacular, removal of altar rails, priest facing the people, are these abuses? If not, how can they be wrong?
 
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