The Indult

[deogratias]

Indults are general faculties (q.v.), granted by the Holy See to bishops and others, of doing something not permitted by the common law.

For example, the normative for receiving communion is on the tongue. Some countries have an Indult allowing it in the hand.

The normative is the N.O. Mass. An Indult has been granted that the Tridentine Mass can be celebrated with permission of the Bishop of that Diocese.

Indults may be specified for a certain length of time and are granted by one Pope but could easily be revoked by another.

The most recent Indult I know of is is one in the U.S. which allows EMHC’s to purify the vessels and this has been granted on a trial basis for a 3 year period I believe.

Hope that answers your questions about Indults.

Some things have evolved to be accepted but were not the intent of Vatican II. For instance the altar rail removal - you will find no document instructing churches to do this.

If you wish to know what is the norm today, the best source is the GIRM and you will note that the US has version has changes which have been approved by The Holy See - and these more or less would be considered Indults. The other thing I would recommend you read is Redemptionis Sacramentum which spells out some things that must be done.

Hope this helps.

 

[csr]

I do not go to the “indult” mass on a regular basis because it is an insult to suppose permission is needed to partake of an immemorial custom that is clearly more holy and beneficial. I avoid the Novus Ordo altogether because it is infused with many, many problems. There are times in the Church when laymen must assert their rights, and this is one of them.

 

[deogratias]

Sounds like a case of cutting off your nose to spite your face to me.

 

[guse]

csr:

I do not go to the “indult” mass on a regular basis because it is an insult to suppose permission is needed to partake of an immemorial custom that is clearly more holy and beneficial. I avoid the Novus Ordo altogether because it is infused with many, many problems. There are times in the Church when laymen must assert their rights, and this is one of them.

Could you clarify if you go to Mass at all? You avoid the Novus Ordo. You do not go the the indult Mass, which I thought was the Tridentine Mass.

 

[deogratias]

Re: Indult - yes it is a Tridentine Mass but so are the SSPX and SSPV Masses - difference being is Indult are licit and valid while the other two are not licit.

 

[Marie]

Polls always leave something out! Bummer! I had to choose no. I do of course have the advantage of and indult available, and sometimes attend. But no, it is not the center of my spiritual life. I grew up with it and it is lovely. It is not the normative mass today. I attend my own Ordo Missae parish, love it and see no reason to travel across the city for nostalgia. Not to mention it is not really the same as it was in the 40’s and the 50’s. I miss that part the most but then that was because the lay people attending were not so full of themselves. We just loved God and the Mass was a holy event, not a liturgical policing event.

I enjoy the TLM but at this point most of those who attend the TLM are not my cup of tea. Their lives and actions do not speak to the TLM making them better Catholics. Quite the opposite. And unhappier and mean spirited flock of geese I have yet to meet. :bigyikes: Not all of course, thanks heavens, but way too many of them.

It is nice though when I can attend the TLM with normal Latin Rite mass lovers. They love the Latin Mass. They are good and cheerful soldiers for Christ. But, as I said, usually it is more of the militant holier than thou types there. So, I don’t care to drive 8 miles to come home and attend another Ordo Missae mass just so I can get the feeling of a closeness to God the Liturgical Police kill with their long faces and pinched up mouths.

 

[deogratias]

Marie - I regret that you have had such adverse experiences with those who attend TLM - it has not been so for me and I have never expressed here or otherwise that we are “holier than thou” - just this is where I find my spiritual solace. But I must have been going in different places than you because I have felt a great sense of community and humor and joy in those that attend the TLM.

I found this same community in one place I lived and attended NOM also - it may be more location than anything else though. The “friendly” NOM was in a small town where a lot of us knew each other in other walks of life as well while the one in the large city was full of strangers and visitors.

 

[Marie]

Deo- I did say NOT all of them! Thank Heavens that is not the case, but way too many. I consider one a pain, three or more a faith killer and there are usually about a 50/50 mix where I go. Not being the patient type I tend to want to strangle them. I consider them anethmia and a hinderence to the Latin Mass lovers movement. I have never found the pharsee’s nor the Sad-U-see’s a role model to build faith and holiness on.

Thier ilk is so far from true faith, love and obedience that it makes me ill. I was raised in the Pre-Vatican II church. I find the Post Vatican Traditionalist of their ilk disgusting. Met a couple today, so don’t mind my Rant. I am praying for their sorry examples as I type. Praying for myself too so I can maintain my own faith and look to my own sin’s more than taking their example and judging them which is a bit of what I am doing right now as they really irritate me no end.

Pre-Vatican II Catholic’s did not pontificate on such things as “WELL, I want this, I want that, I know the teachings of the church better than the Bishop, or this priest or that deacon etc.” Or JPII, did this wrong, The church is wrong, I am right yada! yada!

The Pre-Vatican Latin mass and people of God were about worshiping God, growing in holiness. Some of these late comers to the scene come just to see how they can rip and tear the church apart as far as I can tell.I tend to dearly love the ones who love the Latin Mass for the right reasons. I tend to want to take a mac-truck through the middle of the wanna be’s.End of story.

 

[deogratias]

Met a couple today, so don’t mind my Rant

I wish they would stop it too because it does nothing to promote understanding of the TLM or to encourage its existence

Sorry you had such a bad day, Marie - hope tomorrow is better for you.

Well that is one of the things I do like about Vatican II also, it gave us the right to rant LOL. We might have done a little private complaining before Vatican II but in a public forum like this, no way Jose.

 

[Marie]

Well that is one of the things I do like about Vatican II also, it gave us the right to rant LOL. We might have done a little private complaining before Vatican II but in a public forum like this, no way Jose.

By todays standards I suppose one could love it. But by my standards and Pre-Vatican II, it is not working towards building up the body of Christ, but tearing it down. Decency and honor now seem to be a thing no longer sought nor a personal vocation for us all. There is the big rub. Because it is allowed with the hopes of being used maturely to right wrongs does not make the continual slander and gossip a virtue. It is still a sin and people seem to have little care for their imortal souls when they post such things with only their personal opinion as the gage of right.

Not speaking of you btw. I get a good giggle out of some of it too. I know you work to be balanced and you and many do a very good job. It is the wanna be Popes that drive me nuts.

 

[deogratias]

Well I think you raise a better point than you may realize, Marie.

In the pre Vatican Ii world, as you remember, we followed the rules and understood eternal life to be our reward for doing so. Yet we often wondered if we were doing enough and living our lives as Christ wished us.

Vatican II’s intent was to take us out of the box and to live our reliion as a means to grace. “To pass from a merely objective faith—something you have—to one fully lived” according to George Johnston in an article called “After the Council” in crisis magazine.

He says that Vatican II was a call to full spiritual maturity. As you noted this has not occurred. Maybe we, as a people, were not yet mature enough or ready to meet this challenge after all.

Too many saw it as an opportunity to live an “I-centered” rather than a “Christ-centered” life and this in a time when secularism was becoming dominant and temptations even greater.

Cardinal Ratzinger said, “What devestated the Church in the decade after the Council was not the Council but the refusal to accept it”. By that he meant we were all ill-equipped to receive the teachings, misreading, misunderstanding and misinterpreting them. Johnston says even Bishops and Priests were not ready or aware of how to go about implementing it.

He says it was their lack of ability to explain it fully to the faithful that permitted it to be hijacked by progressives.

He further says "Traditionalists who blame all the Church’s recent problems on Vatican II should poder a few questions: If the church was in such good shape before the council, why did things fall apart so rapidly in the 1960’s? How do you account for the fact that the rebellion was the work of bishops, theologians and priests who came of of the Tridentine system? … Why was there so much dissatisfaction?

So it appears that the Church was calling to full adulthood a body of faithful who were mostly still in their rebelious teenage years and not yet ready to meet the challenge.

 

[Marie]

deogratias:

Well I think you raise a better point than you may realize, Marie.

In the pre Vatican Ii world, as you remember, we followed the rules and understood eternal life to be our reward for doing so. .

He says that Vatican II was a call to full spiritual maturity.

Too many saw it as an opportunity to live an “I-centered” rather than a “Christ-centered” life and this in a time when secularism was becoming dominant and temptations even greater.

So it appears that the Church was calling to full adulthood a body of faithful who were mostly still in their rebelious teenage years and not yet ready to meet the challenge.

Sounds like as good of an anylisis as any I have.I have yet to completely figure it out. The volume of dissent seems to rise with each decade from the far left, and the Far right. Tiresome brats. Some of us are still busy striving to live holy lives and they sweat the small stuff and make it such a huge priority. Grip, grip and more gripping!

Makes me wonder why they stay around anyway. Must be for the donuts and gossip because there isn’t much true faith and obedience to be found in some of the worst offenders.