The infallable pope

[Mannyfit75]

If there are only 2 then what’s the big deal? That means Peter didn’t teach anything infallible and besides those 2 you mention the rest of Church history contains nothing infallible.

Not really, the Magisterium teaches it. That is the bishops in union with the Pope in Rome. The Councils I stated are prime examples.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Peter J,

how am I misrepresenting the Church? The teachings of the Church affirms that the Pope does teaches infallibility when he writes concerning faith and morals.

Second, the Papal document, Humane Vitae, which condemns the use of contraception, is consider in the most part as part of the Ordinary Magisterium, that we Catholic must adhere to.

Why do you think the Popes insist that Catholics should not use any form of contraception for the sole use of preventing child birth?

 

[ron77nyc]

The others were proclaimed by Church Councils, Council of Nicea, Council of Ephesus, and the first 7 Councils of the Church. As well as those Councils that came after the seventh Council.

Yes. I know all that. What I’m saying is why has there never been a complete summary in easy to read language published by the Church? There is a lot of confusion around this subject that I think could be eliminated by an easy to read list. There is a book called “Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma” by Ludwig Ott that gives hundreds of infallible statements but it is not an official document.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Yes. I know all that. What I’m saying is why has there never been a complete summary in easy to read language published by the Church? There is a lot of confusion around this subject that I think could be eliminated by an easy to read list. There is a book called “Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma” by Ludwig Ott that gives hundreds of infallible statements but it is not an official document.

Ludwig only gives a summary of Catholic faith. I think if you want to really look at what we teaches, I suggest saving or going online to the Vatican Website and look up both the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Compendium of the Catholic Church written by Pope Benedict XVI. The Compendium is a question and answer format which is setup like the Catechism. It’s easy to read.

I believe it is available free online.

 

[rinnie]

I’ll make this very simple for you: The Church doesn’t say that the Pope is infallible.

Ok Peter J, make it simple for me (im not being sarcastic)

2051 ccc The infallibility of the Magisterium of the Pastors extends to all the elements of doctrine including moral doctrine, without which the savings truths of the faith cannot be preserved, expounded or observed.

Now doesnt that mean that the Pope and bishops in COMMUNION with him have the gift of the Holy Spirit to teach us the right way, Now he teaches us thru scripture, explains it to us, and only he can understand it right. But when he teaches us in DIVINE REVELATION it comes right from God right. So he has to be teaching us right. What am i missing? Isnt that what makes his teachings infallible.

 

[rinnie]

Mannyfit, I just went back and read what you wrote, I am seeing things the same way you are. What are we missing? And I was taught that only he can teach us scripture, and through scripture and understanding scripture teaches us morals. Thats why I was taught infallable in scripture and running of the Church.

No disciplines of the church, I understand thats different. Maybe he can show us what we arent seeing. I could be wrong too, but thats what i always was taught.

 

[Peter_J]

Mannyfit75,

Thanks for the quotes, but I’d be more impressed if you would just admit that you made a mistake when you said that the Pope is “infallible when he teaches moral and faith issue, or when he speaks Ex-cathedra, concerning moral and faith teachings from the Church.”

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Let’s put it this way, Peter (and Manny is not exactly wrong).

The Pope exercises infallibility when he is speaking ex cathedra on matters of faith and morals.

The Pope (and also the bishops, when acting in communion) exercise infallibility when teaching from the extraordinary Magesterium (and these teachings are obviously in matters of faith and morals).

There is more to infallibility than ‘ex cathedra’ and I have given you above the relevent information from Lumen Gentium.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

To repeat:

Vatican II explained the doctrine of infallibility as follows: “Although the individual bishops do not enjoy the prerogative of infallibility, they can nevertheless proclaim Christ’s doctrine infallibly. This is so, even when they are dispersed around the world, provided that while maintaining the bond of unity among themselves and with Peter’s successor, and while teaching authentically on a matter of faith or morals, they concur in a single viewpoint as the one which must be held conclusively. This authority is even more clearly verified when, gathered together in an ecumenical council, they are teachers and judges of faith and morals for the universal Church. Their definitions must then be adhered to with the submission of faith” (Lumen Gentium 25).

Infallibility belongs in a special way to the pope as head of the bishops (Matt. 16:17–19; John 21:15–17). As Vatican II remarked, it is a charism the pope “enjoys in virtue of his office, when, as the supreme shepherd and teacher of all the faithful, who confirms his brethren in their faith (Luke 22:32), he proclaims by a definitive act some doctrine of faith or morals. Therefore his definitions, of themselves, and not from the consent of the Church, are justly held irreformable, for they are pronounced with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, an assistance promised to him in blessed Peter.”

See, from the above we can see that bishops (of whom the Pope is supreme) can ‘teach infallibly’.

The Pope has a special infallibility as head of the bishops, and also when as supreme shepherd and teachher he proclaims by a definitive act some doctrine of faith or morals. (that definitive act may be an ‘ex cathedra’ statement. It may also be the act of writing an encyclical which ‘affirms’ an already infallible teaching. Examples of these would include “Humanae Vitae” and “Ordinatio Sacerdotalis”.)

 

[Peter_J]

Actually, you just proved one of my points. The Church doesn’t teach that the Pope “is infallible when it comes to teaching on matters of faith and morals” but rather that he exercises infallibility whenever he “proclaims by a definitive act some doctrine of faith or morals”. (I personally tend to think first of the language of Vatican I – “ex cathedra” and so forth – but I’m not married to it.)

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Did you ‘forget’ the first part about the bishops?

And will you not acknowledge that ‘ex cathedra’ is NOT the only ‘definitive act’?

 

[Peter_J]

And will you not acknowledge that ‘ex cathedra’ is NOT the only ‘definitive act’?

That’s for the Church to decide, not me.

Now please, stop harassing me.

 

[ron77nyc]

Did you ‘forget’ the first part about the bishops?

And will you not acknowledge that ‘ex cathedra’ is NOT the only ‘definitive act’?

I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful" (Ordinatio Sacerdotalis 4). Pope John Paul II.

Is the above statement regarded as infallible? If yes then is celibacy infallible or tradition?

What did Peter teach ex cathedra?
Has Pope Benedict made any ex cathedra statements?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Mannyfit75,

Thanks for the quotes, but I’d be more impressed if you would just admit that you made a mistake when you said that the Pope is “infallible when he teaches moral and faith issue, or when he speaks Ex-cathedra, concerning moral and faith teachings from the Church.”

I made no mistakes. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that the Pope has a charism of infallibility.

Para 891 states,

“The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals. . . . **The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter’s successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium,” above all in an Ecumenical Council. When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine “for belief as being divinely revealed,” and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions “must be adhered to with the obedience of faith.” This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.

Furthermore in para 2034

The Roman Pontiff and the bishops are “authentic teachers, that is, teachers endowed with the authority of Christ, who preach the faith to the people entrusted to them, the faith to be believed and put into practice.” The ordinary and universal Magisterium of the Pope and the bishops in communion with him teach the faithful the truth to believe, the charity to practice, the beatitude to hope for.

I go with what the Catechism has to say concerning Papal Infallibility.

Consider these paragraphs:

890 The mission of the Magisterium is linked to the definitive nature of the covenant established by God with his people in Christ. It is this Magisterium’s task to preserve God’s people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error. Thus, the pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates. To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church’s shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. The exercise of this charism takes several forms:

891 “The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals. . . . The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter’s successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium,” above all in an Ecumenical Council.418 When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as being divinely revealed,"419 and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of faith."420 This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.421

892 Divine assistance is also given to the successors of the apostles, teaching in communion with the successor of Peter, and, in a particular way, to the bishop of Rome, pastor of the whole Church, when, without arriving at an infallible definition and without pronouncing in a “definitive manner,” they propose in the exercise of the ordinary Magisterium a teaching that leads to better understanding of Revelation in matters of faith and morals. To this ordinary teaching the faithful "are to adhere to it with religious assent"422 which, though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it.

Are you claiming that this paragraphs stated in the Catechism are in error when it deals specifically with the definition of infallibility?

Because I believe these definition to be accurate as the Church defines them.

The Pope enjoys this gift and shares it with the whole Church. I cannot give a more defined definition than what the Catholic states.

I would recommend reading the citations of the Catechism concerning the infallibility of the Pope. In fact, many of the citations are quoted from the First and Second Vatican Council. Just look them up in the Vatican Website and I did not err concerning these issues of the Pope.**

 

[Mannyfit75]

I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful" (Ordinatio Sacerdotalis 4). Pope John Paul II.

Is the above statement regarded as infallible? If yes then is celibacy infallible or tradition?

What did Peter teach ex cathedra?
Has Pope Benedict made any ex cathedra statements?

I believe that statement is infallible statement. The things you have to look for is the consistent teachings of the Church. In the beginning of Church history, the Catholic Church has never ordained women. The Church was build upon the Apostles who are men and Jesus as the chief cornerstone. The bishops, priests, deacons, and Popes were all men.

The Church has never taught that women can be ordained. Jesus did not even ordain female Apostles. He did have female disciples but they did not carry the same responsibility as Peter and the 11 Apostles.

The Church as a whole does not have the authority to ordain women. Even if the women were ordained by a bishop, the ordaination would be invalid much like using bread rolls for Eucharist during the consecration.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Let’s put it this way, Peter (and Manny is not exactly wrong).

The Pope exercises infallibility when he is speaking ex cathedra on matters of faith and morals.

The Pope (and also the bishops, when acting in communion) exercise infallibility when teaching from the extraordinary Magesterium (and these teachings are obviously in matters of faith and morals).

There is more to infallibility than ‘ex cathedra’ and I have given you above the relevent information from Lumen Gentium.

I’m not wrong. I know I am right. I quoted the Catechism as proof for what Papal Infallibility.

 

[mercygate]

If there are only 2 then what’s the big deal? That means Peter didn’t teach anything infallible and besides those 2 you mention the rest of Church history contains nothing infallible.

Do you suffer from a spiritual condition we call “scrupulosity?”

 

[mercygate]

Mannyfit75,

Thanks for the quotes, but I’d be more impressed if you would just admit that you made a mistake when you said that the Pope is “infallible when he teaches moral and faith issue, or when he speaks Ex-cathedra, concerning moral and faith teachings from the Church.”

The Pope may speak “infallibly” at any time – even when munching his cornflakes at breakfast, if he is speaking of doctrines of the Faith. But to make an “infallible” declaration, he must be speaking on a matter of faith and morals and he must specify that he is invoking the authority that resides in the papacy to promulgate doctrine.

A prime example of a papal document that teaches “infallibly” but that is not itself an “infallible” document is Humanae vitae. The pope did not specifically invoke the “infallibility clause” because the teaching against contraception was as old as the Church and already enjoyed the force of “divine and Catholic faith.”

As for what teachings one “must” believe as a Catholic, beyond the basics it hardly matters. All you need to do is trust the Church. Abraham did not know all the particulars of “the” faith but he “had” faith. I need to know a specific Catholic teaching when I need to know it and not necessarily before. For example, I do not need to understand the concept of Christian marriage until the matter crosses my path. But I sure as heck better get myself an education on the subject before I attempt to marry.

 

[ron77nyc]

Do you suffer from a spiritual condition we call “scrupulosity?”

What is scrupulosity? If you’re saying I’m obsessively scrupulous then no I don’t have scrupulosity. I’m just asking very practical questions and I’m getting either contradictory answers or no answers. Everyone has great definitions but they don’t know what they are defining.

 

[mercygate]

I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful" (Ordinatio Sacerdotalis 4). Pope John Paul II.
Is the above statement regarded as infallible?

This statement simply reiterates in clear and specific form what the Church has always held on this matter. Ergo: *de facto *infallible.

If yes then is celibacy infallible or tradition?

The tradition of clerical celibacy does not come under the same umbrella. The statement on the Ordination of women relates to what constitutes a valid sacrament of Holy Orders. A matter of faith. The Church *CAN and DOES *ordain married men to Priesthood. This is a matter of discipline, not doctrine. And it is not a matter of either faith or morals.

What did Peter teach ex cathedra?

The Gospel; he wrote two books of the New Testament. But the question is anachronistic. The specific limits of papal teaching authority had not yet been clarified. Even the Church does not have ALL the truth at the same time – at least not in specific and concrete terms. That is why Our Lord promised to send the Holy Spirit to “guide you into all the truth.”

Has Pope Benedict made any ex cathedra statements?

Not to my knowledge.