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ron77nyc
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Thanks. You know what you’re talking about. Everyone has just had a much needed lesson in the faith.
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elts1956
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Hi Peter. I cannot remember all the main teachings that have been given ex cathedra. Can you help me out? I know 1. The Sacrifice of the Mass (transubstantiation) 2. The Immaculate Conception? 3. Belief in the Sanctity of the other six Sacraments? I will look in my Catechism. Been a long time since I went over this. Yeak, I just go to church, confession, communion, church, confession, communion. Just kidding. I have been reading, but not about the dogmas. HEEEEELP. Thanks.
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reform3703
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While this is true, Christ gave no instructions as to who should carry on the Church after Peter established it. There is also no mention of anyone’s infallibility. You cannot say that these verses commanded the papacy as we know it, or any papacy at all, for that matter.
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Peter_J
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Hi,
The Catholic Church has no set list of ex cathedra statements – i.e. people have some freedom in terms of opinions about how many ex cathedra statements there have been. Some Catholics say there have a lot of ex cathedra statements, but a great many Catholics say there have only been two (the Immaculate Conception in 1854, and the Assumption in 1950).
If you’re wondering why Catholics are allowed to have various opinions on this question, I’d point you to the Cardinal Newman vindicated? thread.
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reform3703
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I will tell you one thing for sure: I am one “separated brother” who refuses to return to Catholicism. I am a product of eight years of Catholic school and counting, yet I disagree with many of the core Catholic beliefs to the point where I could not force myself to become Catholic. I know hundreds of people who will stand behind me in that belief. Unless the Catholic church fundamentally changes, our separation is permanent. Someone will always disagree with the Catholic church.Mr.Stain: Thank you.
SIA, guess you missed Mr. Stain’s excellent post which gave all the actual Scriptural references to support the post of mine which you called ‘semantics’. I trust you’re not calling Scripture ‘just more semantics’. . .
Especially when (and it’s going to come sooner than you think) our separated brethren return to Catholicism. Far better that you concentrate on the many things that you ‘agree with’ in the Catholic faith than paint yourself into a corner finding the few that you have rejected and attempting to make them so important that you’d cut off your nose to spite your face. . .
However, I agree with your first statement about semantics. Scripture is so very much more than that. We (the universal Christian church) believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God. That is where the Catholics are in accord with all the other Christian denominations. Even we Lutherans (Missouri Synod to be exact) are more than happy to agree with you on that point.
My last point is that, despite our focus on inherent differences, all Christian denominations have the same fundamental base. We can all agree on the Bible being inspired and Christ being the son of God and the existence of the Trinity made up of a single God with three distinct persons. But the differences make all the difference in the world. They are what separate us into the different denominations and they cannot simply be ignored. Most would agree that the Catholics and the Pentecostals are different because of this principle.
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Peter_J
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P.S. There are also quite a few dogmas that have been defined by the various ecumenical councils. Unfortunately, I can’t really give you a list, but a couple of recent examples: Vatican I defined Papal Infallibility and Universal Ordinary Jurisdiction; Trent defined the Perpetual Virginity of Mary and something relating to transubstantiation (I think), and so on. (I skipped Vatican II because I don’t believe it defined any dogmas.)
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Tantum_ergo
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And in addition to the ecumenical councils are encyclicals like Humanae Vitae and Ordinatio Sacerdotalis. These are statements wherein the Pope plainly sets forth the teachings of the extraordinary Magesterium. The prohibition on contraception and abortion has always existed --one of the earliest Christian written documents (thought that document is not itself ‘infallible’) mentions this infallible teaching (the Didache). The necessity for men, and not women, as ‘valid matter’ for ordination likewise pre-existed Christianity in God’s covenant with the Jewish people. . .the ‘New Covenant’ carries on this infallible teaching.
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elts1956
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Thanks Peter.
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Peter_J
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Americanrevert
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Why is everything so hush hush and who gave the pope the right to make judgments on forgiveness or sainthood? God? Where’s the proof? If things are kept hidden on purpose, then I feel pride is too lengthy in their “hierarchy” and this is indeed a sin. Wonder if they know and have books that cannot prove their belief?..or even yet, doesn’t have what they claim they have? or even yet, just simply don’t have what they claim as their belief in the church practices or even yet, claims to other beliefs that they do not want others to know about…makes one wonder why they are in charge of secrecy…sounds like an entire new order in place…lookout freemasons!
americanrevert
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Excellent questions
Why is everything so hush hush and who gave the pope the right to make judgments on forgiveness or sainthood? God? Where’s the proof? If things are kept hidden on purpose, then I feel pride is too lengthy in their “hierarchy” and this is indeed a sin. Wonder if they know and have books that cannot prove their belief?..or even yet, doesn’t have what they claim they have? or even yet, just simply don’t have what they claim as their belief in the church practices or even yet, claims to other beliefs that they do not want others to know about…makes one wonder why they are in charge of secrecy…sounds like an entire new order in place…lookout freemasons!
americanrevert
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Ricardo_Gomez
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I just want to have a clear picture here, is the word of God infalible? And if it is how much of it is given to the local pastor?
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elts1956
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Hello AR. My my we are suspicious today, are we not? I should have known that this particular question I asked about the doctrines of the church that I have not read would lead to a criticism frenzy of the Catholic Church. I don’t know where the archives for the beliefs of the Islamic world are kept, or how many there are, but I understand the Vatican Library holds tons of documents that are resources for study of the truths of the Catholic Faith. I just haven’t gotten to the Vatican Library yet.
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Peter_J
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What sort of things?
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churchcamefirst
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Hello, I have a question for you that is totally off topic here and I am just curious. It states in your profile you were raised Protestant but became a Muslin in the early 90’s. My question is if you believed in Jesus Christ all your life, then rejected him, do you know that your soul is in jeopardy? Do you care? To have known Christ and then reject him is a terrible abomination toward our Lord and Savior. How do you handle this? Thanks.
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Peter_J
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^^ Yes, totally off topic.
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churchcamefirst
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I wasn’t speaking to you.
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Peter_J
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We’ve been talking a lot about “How many ex cathedra statements have their been?” I think it might help put things in perspective if we consider for a moment the question of “How many ecumenical councils have there been?”
The ‘standard’ Catholic list of ecumenical councils has 21 (starting with First Nicea, 325, and going right on through to Second Vatican, 1962–1965). But not all Catholics agree that there have been that many ecumenical councils (go to MELKITE CHALLENGE - GRADES 7-12 and scroll down to #8) and the Vatican has never said that they must (as far as I know).
The ‘standard’ Catholic list of ecumenical councils has 21 (starting with First Nicea, 325, and going right on through to Second Vatican, 1962–1965). But not all Catholics agree that there have been that many ecumenical councils (go to MELKITE CHALLENGE - GRADES 7-12 and scroll down to #8) and the Vatican has never said that they must (as far as I know).
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ron77nyc
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I think they are hiding the fact that there are some infallible proclamations which contradict others.
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Tantum_ergo
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Um, no, there are not.
There are no ‘infallible proclamations’ that contradict other infallible proclamations.
But since you’re claiming there are. . .show them. The burden of proof is on you since you made the claim.
There are no ‘infallible proclamations’ that contradict other infallible proclamations.
But since you’re claiming there are. . .show them. The burden of proof is on you since you made the claim.
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Peter_J
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I don’t mean to be pedantic, but surely you don’t think there are some infallible proclamations which contradict other infallible proclamations.
If two proclamations contradict each other, then clearly at least one of them is not infallible.
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