The Invention of Catholicism?

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Certainly Church authority is one resolution to the problem of disagreement and ambiguity. So maybe we should meditate on the authority of the Church instead since the scriptures are just a tool of the Church and mean whatever the Church says they mean.

Bingo! Sounds good to me…but I suspect you are being facetious

But assuming that we seek to understand it, I think it would be better to investigate the translation of the verse more closely.
That has been the job of thousands of church fathers, and saints that have come before us. You and I do not have the authority to decide wether or not St Paul was speaking figuratively. For my part I have seen many Protestants deny a literal translation of scripture when one is obvious because it does not agree with their theology. They will pick and choose, and memorize those verses which support their position(s), and completley ignore the ones that don’t. Then again that has been my observation in the past, and does not pertain to anything you have said here .
 
Hey jake23: thanks for the acknowledgement of all of us who are non-catholics, or Protestants, if that’s what you must call us! And because there were no restrictions on joining this forum, we are allowed to be a part of it! And even though we aren’t catholic:) , we do have at least one thing in comon with y’all; we are children of God, and we have been saved by the blood of Christ! I personally am having a blast, corresponding with all the different people, and seeing all the different ideas and opinions!
 
Hey jake23: thanks for the acknowledgement of all of us who are non-catholics, or Protestants, if that’s what you must call us! And because there were no restrictions on joining this forum, we are allowed to be a part of it! And even though we aren’t catholic:) , we do have at least one thing in comon with y’all; we are children of God, and we have been saved by the blood of Christ! I personally am having a blast, corresponding with all the different people, and seeing all the different ideas and opinions!
I am glad to hear so and I agree that your our brothers and sister in christ who hold some truths of the mysteries of christ. Of course my comment was not to run off anyone who is not catholic but to stop the ignorant comments that attack the catholic church which you will find in variouse parts of this thread. There is a difference between corresponding with different poeple and writing comments that insult the catholic church. I hope that you agree! God Bless!
 
Mr jmcrae: Funny you should mention all of those activities from Matthew 25:31-46; because I am currently doing most of them, with the exception of visiting those in prison! Being that I work on the other side of the bars, that would be overfamiliarity! And I don’t “need” to go to confession every week, I go to the Father(God) as needed, through Christ, my Advocate, intercessor> And no need for crossing myself or praying through the holy virgin. Covered by the blood, secure in my salvation, guaranteed eternal life!👍
 
CWBetts: I still after reading the Bible for almost 42 years, have yet to find scripture pertaining to purgatory, so I guess I am not being unscriptural!(is that a word?):confused:
 
Mr jmcrae: Funny you should mention all of those activities from Matthew 25:31-46; because I am currently doing most of them, with the exception of visiting those in prison! Being that I work on the other side of the bars, that would be overfamiliarity! And I don’t “need” to go to confession every week, I go to the Father(God) as needed, through Christ, my Advocate, intercessor> And no need for crossing myself or praying through the holy virgin. Covered by the blood, secure in my salvation, guaranteed eternal life!👍
If Jesus intended that we confess only in private, how do you read John 20:20-23, where He conveys to the Eleven the Holy Spirit specifically for the forgiveness of sins? Please don’t try to convince us that He meant preaching the Gospel. The grammar simply will not bear that. Moreover, it was an interpretation unheard of before about 1840.

I think you have a lot of things confused here. Nothing in Catholic practice in any way dilutes the Gospel or compromises the power of Jesus Christ.
 
That has been the job of thousands of church fathers, and saints that have come before us. You and I do not have the authority to decide wether or not St Paul was speaking figuratively.
You presume that it is a question of authority and not a question of truth.
For my part I have seen many Protestants deny a literal translation of scripture when one is obvious because it does not agree with their theology. They will pick and choose, and memorize those verses which support their position(s), and completley ignore the ones that don’t.
That’s nothing. Protestants have been known to toss out whole books that confict with their theology. (Of course, Catholics complain when they use the Catholic canon in the first place. Who says Catholics can’t have it both ways.)

So the question is not whether people allow their theology to color their translations and interpretations but whether Catholics are immune from this human tendency.
 
CWBetts: I still after reading the Bible for almost 42 years, have yet to find scripture pertaining to purgatory, so I guess I am not being unscriptural!(is that a word?):confused:
Pergatory is actually another good example of a Catholic innovation that is fairly easily justified from the Bible.

Here is New Advent:

newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

It provides the relevant Biblical citations. But the key thing to note is that belief in pergatory requires something more than a text search of the Bible. It requires logical inference.

So did the Christians of Acts believe in pergatory? Probably not.
 
CWBetts: I still after reading the Bible for almost 42 years, have yet to find scripture pertaining to purgatory, so I guess I am not being unscriptural!(is that a word?):confused:
How do you reconcile, 1 Cor. 3:12-15?
***"If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one’s work. ***
***If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage.***But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire."

**St. Paul is talking about how judgement will disclose every person’s works. Those who suffer loss because their works are “burned up” will be saved - WILL BE saved. **This is not Hell that is being spoken of because they will be saved after suffering.

So, what is it?
 
American Protestants tend to view the Church as a democratic or perhaps a Federalist proposition. The idea of “kingdom” and “royalty” is offensive to the Americanist view.
Which begs an interesting question: If Jesus walked the earth today would he invoke a “Kingdom of God” or, perhaps, something else that modern ears were more familiar with? Is “kingdom” an anacrhonistic metaphor or a precise description?
 
Pergatory is actually another good example of a Catholic innovation that is fairly easily justified from the Bible.

Here is New Advent:

newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

It provides the relevant Biblical citations. But the key thing to note is that belief in pergatory requires something more than a text search of the Bible. It requires logical inference.

So did the Christians of Acts believe in pergatory? Probably not.
Guess again, Bubba:

Clement of Alexandria

The believer through discipline divests himself of his passions and passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, passes to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance for the faults he may have committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more, not yet attaining what he sees others have acquired. The greatest torments are assigned to the believer, for God’s righteousness is good, and His goodness righteous, and though these punishments cease in the course of the expiation and purification of each one, “yet” etc. (Patres Groeci. IX, col. 332 A.D. 150-215]).

Origen
If a man departs this life with lighter faults, he is condemned to fire which burns away the lighter materials, and prepares the soul for the kingdom of God, where nothing defiled may enter. For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (I Cor., 3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones? Neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works. (Patres Groeci. XIII, col. 445, 448 A.D. 185-232]).

Tertullian
That allegory of the Lord [Matt. 5:25-26] . . . is extremely clear and simple in its meaning . . . [beware lest as] a transgressor of your agreement, before God the judge . . . and lest this judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation? (The Soul 35 A.D. 210]).
The faithful widow prays for the soul of her husband, and begs for him in the interim repose, and participation in the first resurrection, and offers prayers on the anniversary of his death (Monogamy 10 A.D. 213]).

Cyprian
It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the Day of Judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord (Letters 51[55]:20 A.D. 253]).

Cyril of Jerusalem
Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition, next, we make mention also of the holy fathers and bishops who have already fallen asleep, and, to put it simply, of all among us who have already fallen asleep. For we believe that it will be of very great benefit to the souls of those for whom the petition is carried up, while this holy and most solemn sacrifice is laid out (Catechetical Lectures 23:5:9 A.D. 350]).

Augustine
There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for other dead who are remembered. It is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended (Sermons 159:1 A.D. 411]).
Temporal punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by some after death, by some both here and hereafter, but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But not all who suffer temporal punishments after death will come to eternal punishments, which are to follow after that judgment (The City of God 21:13 A.D. 419]).

That there should be some fire even after this life is not incredible, and it can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden whether some of the faithful may be saved, some more slowly and some more quickly in the greater or lesser degree in which they loved the good things that perish, through a certain purgatorial fire (Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Charity l8:69 A.D. 421]).
 
Which begs an interesting question: If Jesus walked the earth today would he invoke a “Kingdom of God” or, perhaps, something else that modern ears were more familiar with? Is “kingdom” an anacrhonistic metaphor or a precise description?
Personally, I believe the Jesus came into the world at EXACTLY the right point – “in the fullness of time.” Kingdom imagery also fulfills His lineage as “Son of David.”
 
Personally, I believe the Jesus came into the world at EXACTLY the right point – “in the fullness of time.” Kingdom imagery also fulfills His lineage as “Son of David.”
I don’t have an opinion on this one way or the other but it does explain part of the problem with religion in general and Catholicism in particular. In the old days it was trivial to point to a person’s relationship to his king and lord and say your relationship with God is like that. These days, does anyone really know what a lord is?

On the other hand, Protestantism, with its emphasis on the sanctity of the individual, is a bit better suited to modern understanding.
 
Which begs an interesting question: If Jesus walked the earth today would he invoke a “Kingdom of God” or, perhaps, something else that modern ears were more familiar with? Is “kingdom” an anacrhonistic metaphor or a precise description?
Keep in mind that medieval feudalism was based upon Christianity; not the other way around. 😉
 
So did the Christians of Acts believe in pergatory? Probably not.
Their immediate successors did; the Catacombs are full of prayers both for and to the dead. And the Jews of that time had the custom (as some sects still do today) of praying for one year for the souls of the dead, that they might be purified so as to enter into Paradise.

You will no doubt remember that there were many Jews who sat by the Twin Towers for a period of eleven months after 9/11, praying for those who had died there.
 
I don’t have an opinion on this one way or the other but it does explain part of the problem with religion in general and Catholicism in particular. In the old days it was trivial to point to a person’s relationship to his king and lord and say your relationship with God is like that. These days, does anyone really know what a lord is?

On the other hand, Protestantism, with its emphasis on the sanctity of the individual, is a bit better suited to modern understanding.
Be that as it may, it is not the imagery that Christ employs in Scripture.

As for modern individualism: it’s really not found in Scripture. I believe we owe it to the text to attempt to meet it as much on its own terms as we can.
 
Keep in mind that medieval feudalism was based upon Christianity; not the other way around. 😉
True, but “medieval feudalism” was a (more humane) qualification of a natural hierarchy that long predated Christianity.
 
I’m not worried about the old Italian ladies in my neighjborhood. They were strong Catholics. I’m worried about the people I know now and their families who got sucked into a cult by a slick talking Watchtower representative who is trained to specifically target Catholics because they know these people don’t know the bible. I hardly ever here of a Protestant falling for that nonsense. A Protestant will say. “Let’s see what my bible says.”
Not only a Protestant will say it, but also this Catholic! I wrote about this in a post on how to deal with door-to-door people. But, JW’s are why I started doing apologetics. I was a SAHM with 3 small children, ages 9 mo’s, 3yo, and 4yo. My dh is active duty military and was hardly ever home except to eat and sleep. So, I was desperate for an adult to talk to. ANYONE would do at that point. Well, a JW lady and her young dd came and I invited them in. Everytime she would point out a verse, I would say, “let’s see what my Bible says”. I would then read the verse in context, and then grab my CCC and see what the church had to say on the subject. I really enjoyed doing that. I am a debating kind of person. So, to not only have an adult to talk to, but to also have a reason to study and be able to formulate debating points was fun! 👍

So, do know that there are some of us that will pull out our Bibles and look it up. I have been teaching 5th grade CCD for the last 2 years, and have made a point to make sure that all of my students have a bible and know the difference between a Catholic Bible and a Protestant Bible. Most of them roll their eyes at you when you talk about needing to know why you believe what you believe and knowing where to find it. But, I, at least, am trying to teach them how to find it if they ever need it. I am also teaching my own kids about this.
 
QUOTE=Bubba Switzler;4825311]Which begs an interesting question: If Jesus walked the earth today would he invoke a “Kingdom of God” or, perhaps, something else that modern ears were more familiar with? Is “kingdom” an anacrhonistic metaphor or a precise description?

** “hail King of the Jews!”**
That's pretty precis:D e
 
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