The Invention of Catholicism?

[Non_Serviam]

You missed my point.
Church is the noun, Catholic the adjective.
The scripture passage is giving the where, the scope of the command.

Matthew 28:16-20
Go out into all the world (katholikos) baptizing them, and teaching them everything that I have made known to you.

This is PRECISELY why we use the adjective, Catholic, for His Church.

And the church DID exist at pentecost. The apostles and disciples WERE the church.
This scripture IS the commissioning of the church that Jesus (in Matt 16) that He would found.

michel

I agree with the exegesis, allowing that disciples added between Matthew 28 and Pentecost were still disciples until the church came into being on that day.

I also recognize that the the Catholic church takes its name from that passage and claims exclusively to be that church, but not everyone accepts that claim.

 

[jake23]

I agree with the exegesis, allowing that disciples added between Matthew 28 and Pentecost were still disciples until the church came into being on that day.

I also recognize that the the Catholic church takes its name from that passage and claims exclusively to be that church, but not everyone accepts that claim.

Your right not everyone accepts the truth! nor did I until I recieved a college education about biblical history! from a protestant school! Read the book “the lives of the popes” which will go through all of the popes from St. Peter to our current pope. This should help give a better understanding of our claim and give some interesting info on the growth and experiences of the church good and bad.

 

[elvisman]

Churches with apostolic succession are Catholic but not Roman Catholic.
the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Oriental Orthodox churches, the Assyrian Church of the East,the Old Catholic churches and the churches of the Anglican Communion.[4] The claim of continuity may be based on Apostolic Succession,

1. The Apostolic Succession of Saint Matthew’s Churches is traced through the following branches of the church:
   o Anglican
   o Metropolitan-Archbishops of Albania
   o Armenian Catholicate-Patrichate of Cilicia-Catholic Uniate
   o Patriarchate of Moscow, Greek Melkite
   o Patriarchate of Antioch-Melkite Uniate
   o Catholic/Patriarchate of Assyria (The East)
   o Chaldean Patriarchate of Babylon of Baghdad-Chaldean Uniate
   o Syrian “Jacobite” Patriarchate of Antioch
   o Order for Corporate Reunion
   o Antioch Orthodox Succession
   o Roman Petrine Succession-the Roman Catholic Church of Brazil
   o Holy Russian Orthodox Synod
   o Roman Petrine Succession-Utrecht Old Catholic Church
   o Ultrajectine
   o Old Roman Catholic

WRONG.
You just copied and pasted this from the Saint Matthew’s Churches website. None of these Churches is in communion with the Catholic Church.
Nice try.

The Church in Jerusalem.

You said:
Early Catholics only had Jewish law and tradition and were not required to live under it.
This is false. They had the commands of our Lord Jesus and the Authority of the Apostles.

The Vatican imposes Roman Law and Roman Tradition which were not part of the Early Church on all Roman Catholics; at the same time the Vatican enjoys diplomatic immunity as a gift from Mussolini.

Here is the definition of Canon Law:
newadvent.org/cathen/09056a.htm
Canon law is the body of laws and regulations made by or adopted by ecclesiastical authority, for the government of the Christian organization and its members. The word adopted is here used to point out the fact that there are certain elements in canon law borrowed by the Church from civil law or from the writings of private individuals, who as such had no authority in ecclesiastical society.

As for “Roman Law”, the Church - as well as the United states and other goverments - have borrowed from Ancient Roman and Greek Laws. This doesn’t make them “Romans”.
The Catholic Church is the Catholic Church and Rome is where it is headquartered.

As for your assertion that it was Mussolini who granted the Vatican the favor of Diplomatic Immunity - that’s false. The Vatican is it’s own State since 1929 and was the result of a treaty between the Pope and King Victor Emmanuel III. It is this way so that it wouldn’t have to acquiesce to Godless laws.

Here’s a question:
Why do you identify yourself as a “Catholic” if you clearly are against the Church, inasmuch as you are prepared to tell half-truths and lies about her?

 

[elvisman]

Easy, elvisman; I was getting back to you, it’s just that I’ve been in another forum for awhile and had some other business! I believe that when Jesus told us in John 14:16-17,26, John 15:26, and John 16:7, that we would receive an Advocate, I believe that it was also for us to be granted the gift of discernment! And as for acrimony, anger,etc, it is not allowed on this website, right! You are actually one of my favorite guys to correspond with . I love your intensity, and it almost makes me want to be a catholic(not!) , so we could sit and talk ad nauseum about things! I am glad that my God gave me free will; and the privilege of knowing Him through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ!Wouldn’t it be boring, if we were all the same?

The problem with your interpretation is that it isn’t the same as the Protestant down the street or down the block or accross town. This is why there are literally tens of thousands of differing, bickering denominations based on differing interpretations.

**This is NOT what Jesus had in mind when he fervently prayed for the UNITY of His church in John 17. **
This is why you are a separated brother or sister.

 

[elvisman]

Easy, elvisman; I was getting back to you, it’s just that I’ve been in another forum for awhile and had some other business! I believe that when Jesus told us in John 14:16-17,26, John 15:26, and John 16:7, that we would receive an Advocate, I believe that it was also for us to be granted the gift of discernment! And as for acrimony, anger,etc, it is not allowed on this website, right! You are actually one of my favorite guys to correspond with . I love your intensity, and it almost makes me want to be a catholic(not!) , so we could sit and talk ad nauseum about things! I am glad that my God gave me free will; and the privilege of knowing Him through a personal relationship with Jesus Christ!Wouldn’t it be boring, if we were all the same?

The problem with your interpretation is that it isn’t the same as the Protestant down the street or down the block or accross town. This is why there are literally tens of thousands of differing, bickering denominations based on differing interpretations.

This is NOT what Jesus had in mind when he fervently prayed for the UNITY of His church in John 17. He prayed that we all be ONE as he and the Father are ONE. Sadly, Protestantism is a rebellion of that prayer.

This is why you are a separated brother or sister.

 

[ron77nyc]

WRONG.

Here’s a question:
Why do you identify yourself as a Catholic
I am a baptized and confirmed Catholic justified by the gift of faith in my savior. You should also ask that question to all Catholics who don’t live according to all the church requires and all Catholics who don’t accept the reality of the resurrection. There are quite a lot of them. How did they get in?

" if you clearly are against the Church, inasmuch as you are prepared to tell half-truths and lies about her?

If there is only one Catholic Church then why do we need to call it Roman Catholic? Why not just Catholic? I know because they don’t accept the pope. Round and round we go.
There will be no sections in heaven for different denominations. God already see us as one. We just have a problem seeing all believers as one. His ways are higher than our ways. Let’s try to learn His ways. Our way is not working.

 

[look3467]

If any denomination other than the Catholic Church honors Christ as Savior, than they are all under the same umbrella of Christ.

Except that the differences have to do with how they desire to honor Him, much as like siblings honoring their father and mother their own way.

So the argument goes amongst the siblings, as to who has a better church, who is closer to God and or who is more entitled to have the honor of Gods presence via what ever practice is deemed worthy.

If we can not be all sons of God via Jesus, than a church membership will not make a bit of difference.

It is the same as saying “If there is no Godly love demonstrated, than God is not in us”.

We do recall the story of the Good Samaritan? Was he a Jew?

Luk 10:31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
Luk 10:32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
Luk 10:33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,

What have we here? A priest that was supposed to exercise Godly compassion, a Levite which represented the levitical priesthood and than a Samaritan, who by whom the Jews wanted no association with.

The Samaritan was not of the fold, of the Jewish sect, yet he demonstrated Godly Compassion.

What good was the synagogue to the priest and the Levitical priest when compassion was lacking in demonstration?

Take note: Godly love demonstrated in compassion need only be generated from the heart and need not be a member of anything except understand respect for God and or for others beliefs.

Be whatever you want to be, a Catholic or a protestant, but if your works don’t demonstrate God’s love in your daily living, than I can safely say, your religion is no earthly or heavenly good.

If we are to learn something new about God which one of us has discovered, lets us judge with the eye of love, its validity.

The question was asked of Jesus: Mar 10:37 They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.

What was Jesus’ response? Mar 10:40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.

Well I guess that didn’t sit to well with the other siblings, did it?

So, be it that… Mar 10:43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister…we shall all be ministers if we wish to be great!

Peace>>>AJ

 

[jmcrae]

If there is only one Catholic Church then why do we need to call it Roman Catholic? Why not just Catholic?

The name “Roman Catholic” was given by false “Catholics” who had gone into schism, but still wanted to be considered “Catholic.” That’s where the name came from.

But when you look at official Church documents, you don’t see the term “Roman Catholic” - you only see the terms “Catholic” and “Christian.” Christian Prayer is a Catholic book.

 

[look3467]

I am a baptized and confirmed Catholic justified by the gift of faith in my savior. You should also ask that question to all Catholics who don’t live according to all the church requires and all Catholics who don’t accept the reality of the resurrection. There are quite a lot of them. How did they get in?>>>ron77nyc

Listen to your own words “justified by the gift of faith in my savior”, is that not a testimony of faith?

If than by faith, than you “are” justified, saved, set apart, while you work out all the kinks of the lust loving flesh.

You being a Catholic makes no difference to Jesus’ saving grace, he loves you just the same if you weren’t.

But since you are, be a good one.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[elvisman]

I am a baptized and confirmed Catholic justified by the gift of faith in my savior. You should also ask that question to all Catholics who don’t live according to all the church requires and all Catholics who don’t accept the reality of the resurrection. There are quite a lot of them. How did they get in?

If there is only one Catholic Church then why do we need to call it Roman Catholic? Why not just Catholic? I know because they don’t accept the pope. Round and round we go.
There will be no sections in heaven for different denominations. God already see us as one. We just have a problem seeing all believers as one. His ways are higher than our ways. Let’s try to learn His ways. Our way is not working.

The official name of the Catholic Church - is the “Catholic Church”. It’s not called the “Roman Catholic Church”.
Maybe if you did some study about the faith you would have known that.

Look - you seem to be very poorly catechized and it may have been the result of your youth - I don’t know.
What I DO know is that you can’t use that as an excuse not to know your faith as an adult.

As for learning God’s way - His Church IS the way. That’s why He came here and established it.

You’re right about one thing - there ARE no denominations in heaven. We’ll all be Catholic.

 

[1beleevr]

Yo, elvisman: When I referenced the scriptures about the Advocate, I believe that Jesus meant that said Advocate( the Holy Spirit) would help us to know when scripture was true So He is the one who shows me the Truth! Separated, yes, from the catholic church , but not from God:thumbsup:

 

[1beleevr]

So, will the catholics be going to a different Heaven? And since we don’t have to go to purgatory, I guess we’ll get there before you guys!

 

[1beleevr]

You’re right, Non Serviam; not everyone accepts the claim of the catholic church in Matthew 28:20. I have read my Bible at least three times tonight, and can’t find the word, katholikos! And many of us recognize the pope, as just another religious leader, a man of God , but just for the catholic church:thumbsup:

 

[promethius]

So, will the catholics be going to a different Heaven? And since we don’t have to go to purgatory, I guess we’ll get there before you guys!

Purgatory is not a place, it’s a process of purification. There’s no such thing as “going TO purgatory”, though you can be subjected to purgatory (aka, purgation). Look it up in the catechism, you will quickly see it is described as the PROCESS by which we are made pure to enter heaven.

Further, purgatory is not constrained by time. We speak of time spent in purgation as an equivalency. That is, a certain amount of purgation is equivalent to X amount of time which would be assigned for earthly penance HAD THAT PENANCE BEEN COMPLETED IN LIFE. This does not, however, mean that catholics will spend “years” in purgation, since, again, there is no dimension of time to be considered.

 

[ron77nyc]

It means God’s UNIVERSAL Church.
If you don’t believe in certain aspects of the Church and instead, make up your own beliefs apart from that church - you don’t belong to His Church.

That is a tragedy because Jesus identifies himself with this Church in Acts 9:4-5:

He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?"
He said, "Who are you, sir?" The reply came, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.

Notice, Jesus doesn’t say, "Why are you persecuting my Church?"
He says, "ME", because Jesus cannot be separated from his Church.

---

Let me ask you:
How do you know if your interpretation of Scripture is right?

When non-Catholic missionsaries go into anti-Christian countries to preach the gospel and are persecuted do you think God says, “It’s OK with me. They are not part of my true church?”

 

[ron77nyc]

The official name of the Catholic Church - is the “Catholic Church”. It’s not called the “Roman Catholic Church”.
Maybe if you did some study about the faith you would have known that.

Look - you seem to be very poorly catechized and it may have been the result of your youth - I don’t know.
**What I DO **know is that you can’t use that as an excuse not to know your faith as an adult.

I’m becoming more convinced every time I read about the prejudice and intolerance of Catholics for non-Catholics and statements such as: “When we get to heaven we will all be Catholic” that my poor catechesis is not a bad thing.

As for learning God’s way - His Church IS the way. That’s why He came here and established it.

God’s way is not rigid legalism.

You’re right about one thing - there ARE no denominations in heaven. We’ll all be Catholic.

 

[dawid]

Yo, elvisman: When I referenced the scriptures about the Advocate, I believe that Jesus meant that said Advocate( the Holy Spirit) would help us to know when scripture was true So He is the one who shows me the Truth! Separated, yes, from the catholic church , but not from God:thumbsup:

We all believe that the Holy Spirit works in many ways, even in people like you that are separated from His Church.

That does not imply that the Catholic Church is any less His Church.

 

[CoachSTL]

That’s a new-fangled idea.
Every time God changes someone’s name, it comes with a change in status.
Abram → Abraham
Jacob → Israel
and others
I need you to help me understand why Jesus changed Simon’s name to Cephas (ROCK).

Catholics do not argue this at all.
We do see Jesus giving power and authority to the apostles.
He did the same when he made Peter the visible shepherd on earth of His church (“Feed my sheep”).

If Jesus wanted a shepherd for His people on earth, why would he only want one for Peter’s lifetime. The church lasts much longer than one man’s lifespan.

Why the confusion? We see in Acts 1, Judas being replaced. Judas was gone but his office remained. KJV called this office a ‘bishopric’.
Peter held an office. The office remains.

The church that Jesus set up is called the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15).
Since this church has the truth and had the responsibility of settling disputes (Matt 18:17), it had to be a visible church that we could go to.

So help me to know where the church was after the apostles died.
Where was the church in the 2nd century?
Where was the church in the 3rd century?
Where was the church in the 4th century? ← Trinity and canon defined
Where was the church in the 5th century?
Where was the church in the 6th century?
Where was the church in the 7th century?
Where was the church in the 8th century?
Where was the church in the 9th century?
Where was the church in the 10th century?
Where was the church in the 11th century?
Where was the church in the 12th century?
Where was the church in the 13th century?
Where was the church in the 14th century?
Where was the church in the 15th century?
Where was the church in the 16th century? ← Luther
Where was the church in the 17th century?
Where was the church in the 18th century?
Where was the church in the 19th century?
Where was the church in the 20th century? ← non-denominationalism
Where is the church in the 21st century?

In the lineage, it’s a fairly new idea to deny the apostolic succession of the pope.

With humility I say this. It seems you have a very close relationship with Jesus and read the Word of God regularly. AMEN !!! Catholics do and have the same. Your prejudice may unwittingly be bad information and direction you’ve received from others. If you are honest in your search for truth - and to seek truth IS to seek Jesus (John 14:6) - then at the very least give us a fair chance to explain what we believe and why. Even if you decide afterward to disagree, you’ll have at least learned what we actually believe and teach, rather than holding on to misconceptions of what we believe and teach. You may actually be surprised how biblical we Catholics are.

Cheers my friend.

michel

Michel,

Your reply to 1beleevr is an excellent and accurate summation, and beautifully presented. Just to add to your summation, if a person goes to Mass everyday, they will hear 10,035 verses from the Bible. If they go to Mass every Sunday, they will hear 3650 verses. More importantly they will be following Jesus’ command to receive the Eucharist, “unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you” (read John 46-72)

prayerfully,
Coachstl

 

[cazayoux]

Michel,

Your reply to 1beleevr is an excellent and accurate summation, and beautifully presented. Just to add to your summation, if a person goes to Mass everyday, they will hear 10,035 verses from the Bible. If they go to Mass every Sunday, they will hear 3650 verses. More importantly they will be following Jesus’ command to receive the Eucharist, “unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you” (read John 46-72)

prayerfully,
Coachstl

Thank you, Coachstl.
The Eucharist to me is so central … to everything. I can get choked up just thinking about it. There’s nothing more humbling than receiving. "Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed.
A couple of advents ago, the first week of advent, I was sitting waiting for mass to start. I was thinking about Jesus in the manger and what the manger is. It’s the feeding trough for the cows. In french, the word to is ‘manger’ (say mon-zhay). It seems that there was a prefiguring of the Eucharistic celebration from the day Christ was born. He was placed in a feeding trough.
Maybe it’s not theology, just my disconnected ramblings, but I had such a sense of “Wow” thinking about it.

michel

 

[cazayoux]

I’m becoming more convinced every time I read about the prejudice and intolerance of Catholics for non-Catholics and statements such as: “When we get to heaven we will all be Catholic” that my poor catechesis is not a bad thing.

I am Catholic and can see that might seem offensive.
Maybe see it as, once we get to heaven, we will all be a part of the universal church that Jesus Christ started.
We just happen to have different ideas of what that is.

God’s way is not rigid legalism.

Catholicism is not rigid legalism. That is a prejudice view from the outside. For me, learning about my faith and LIVING my faith has been the most freeing Christ-centric thing I’ve ever experienced.

I’ve heard people say, “Catholics have too many rules”.
When I ask ‘Which rules?’, there is usually no answer.
It’s a quick jab, without much thought.
Now I can imagine some of the ‘rules’ people might come up with.

• no meat on Fridays.
  Now … this is just a practice, and can (and has) changed.
  But don’t have issue with the rule, try to understand why there is a rule, and how it helps.
  These ‘rules’ are seen by non-Catholic Christians as a way for the Catholic Church to control people. Nothing can be further from the truth.
  Fasting brings us closer to God. The rule, or actually, the practice has the intent of bringing the INDIVIDUAL to a closer relationship with Christ. The example for this is Christ himself that fasted in the desert.
  Fasting brings to mind your physicality, with the intent of really focusing on that which is not your physicality, but your spirituality.

This is only one example of the ‘legalism’ that is looked down upon.
If there are more, please, let’s discuss. I think the main purpose of this forum is to help dispel those wrong views of the Catholic Church, for those in and out of the Church.

Peace!

michel