The Invention of Catholicism?

[look3467]

You have done a great job of stating the Catholic position on good works.

I thought of a question, though, since we are in James.
If one has faith and becomes a Christian and does not do good works, what kind of faith did he have?

michel

If you are reborn, which is the case were people are conscience of God, yet don’t follow to do good works, only bring to themselves destruction.

By destruction I mean that the world will destroy you by it’s lusts, yet your soul shall be saved.

Case in point is the man that was excommunicated from the body of believers because he was sleeping with his mother.

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

The day of the Lord Jesus was the day He was taken to the cross.
It was “that day” that brought salvation to the world by Jesus taking on the sins of the world instead of us.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[look3467]

“… and one which will never again die.”

Should I take this to mean that you think that once you are ‘reborn’, you assured of heaven?

michel

Absolutely!

Listen, what does reborn mean? If we are born does it not mean that we were either once dead or born anew as in a new born babe?

Yes, we were once born but because of the separation, we became as dead to God in the flesh.

But by a rebirth of our spirit from a dead state to life which is in Jesus, we are guaranteed never to again die.

We do not die, rebirth and die, rebirth over and over again spiritually, for it was appointed for Jesus to die once and for all time.

So, my friend, if you can believe in your heart that Jesus “granted”
you life eternal, then you can rest from trying to gain it any other way.

That way you can go on and work for the Lord without so much as a thought of ever losing Him due to some short commings on our part.

That is the beauty of God, that He loved us so much that He gifted life to us, because He commanded it.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[look3467]

Once again over your head! No you dont need to got o college, just the catholic church! but if you are to dispute the church than yes you better get a college education on the matter! I like how you manipulate with the whole too poor for college comment! I am from a verry poor family and managed paying for college, infact still paying it, but hey good try! Do you even know the meaning of the parable of the mustard seed??? not likely. Seriousely you shouldnt make acusations when you are not knowledgable on the matter, which you are not. It amazes me how protestants can be so judgemental and opinionated but have no real knowledge of the Bible. Wow you can read an bible with english text! does not mean you understand it. Try to read a swedish novel translated to english and it will sound funny to you and you will misunderstand what the auther was trying to get accross! unless you are fluent in swedish! You are trying really hard to avoid the truth about the catholic church so why are you on here? We love to answer questions but you seem to disregard everything so what is your point? I only see hate and manipulation from you.

Hate and manipulation?

I see that I need to have the greater patience in communicating with you since I am accused of hate and manipulation.

I accuse no one for what they believe for who knows where they come from, who they are and what kind of life they’ve had.

I can only share the love of God in word and practice and leave the rest up to God.

So, alls I want is to share what God has shown me with you and perhaps it will enlighten you some.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[banjo]

There are 2 sides to the Church. The bride of Christ and the Vatican. There is a spiritual side and a political side. Beware of that political side.

ron,
Are you saying: “The bride of Christ” = spiritual side and “the Vatican” = political side? Do you think the Vatican is strictly political and has nothing spiritual to offer? I only ask because I want to correctly understand your point of view.

 

[jake23]

Hate and manipulation?

I see that I need to have the greater patience in communicating with you since I am accused of hate and manipulation.

I accuse no one for what they believe for who knows where they come from, who they are and what kind of life they’ve had.

I can only share the love of God in word and practice and leave the rest up to God.

So, alls I want is to share what God has shown me with you and perhaps it will enlighten you some.

Peace>>>AJ

wow! like I said manipulative! You have only shown that you are confused when it come to scripture. when you are saying that you only want to share what you know, does that mean that you are actualy trying to convert catholics into your misconstrude belief? You are not going to be successful in that, atleast I hope not becasue you will be subject to hell then. You keep ignoring parts of the post. This shows you are being manipulative and dishonest. Seriousely get an education because your level of knowledge is greatly lacking! if you want to put down the bottle of milk and pick up the fork to eat meat then join the RCIA class! Seriousley you are a silly guy!

 

[ron77nyc]

ron,
Are you saying: “The bride of Christ” = spiritual side and “the Vatican” = political side? Do you think the Vatican is strictly political and has nothing spiritual to offer? I only ask because I want to correctly understand your point of view.

I think the Vatican is playing both sides.

 

[codebilly]

I think the Vatican is playing both sides.

Hi Ron,

At some point in a person’s spiritual journey one must understand that they have 2 ways to go.

1. As a sage (such as the prophets, desert fathers, contemplatives, hermit, etc.)
2. Or as part of a spiritual community

If the latter, you will conclude at some point, that you must have a spiritual master or director/advisor.

Are you familiar with the fact, that many saints memoirs refer to their constant prayer for a “confessor”.

Holy laity and priests alike don’t necessarily go to any priest for spiritual direction. It has to be a gift from God ( … finding a holy spiritual director than can truly help you holy )

So you may say “Vatican” in general terms … what does it mean?

You have to understand that the Church’s power is not the political or even social body of its constituents.

The actual Church is the “former” … it is Jesus Christ, His Sacrifice, His Saints and His Blessed Mother.

Now it seems, that you have chosen the way of the sage. The Bible is your guide. But I remind, that … that way, the way of a hermetical life wherein one does not surrender to a spiritual master directly (e.g religious vow), requires that you even renounce speculating about the bible.

You can take nothing with you when you go into the desert.

You can follow Jesus into the desert after the baptism of St. John the Baptist. That is, St. John is the personification of renunciation of the flesh, the world and its affairs. In this renunciation, you may enter into the waters of Baptism that cleanse you from your material desires.

Material desire exists in three aspects of your very being. When you fully hear and comprehend the words of Jesus

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength:

you will understand that every nerve of your body must be surrendered to love the Lord in this capacity. You must love the Lord with “all thy mind”.

Your mind’s consciousness is threefold … “the waking state, the dream state, and the deep sleep state”

Will you allow yourself to be submersed into the waters of baptism so fully, that your dreams are of only of Jesus, that even in the silence of deep sleep, you are still conscious of total loving exchange with the Savior?

Is your heart’s love of Jesus so strong that it wells up like a fountain and silences your mind?

We do not need to “fix” the broken church. No one is great enough to fix all that is wrong in this world. They (the saints) are the Church. The Vatican is just a place. All scripture has come to man, either directly by God, but mostly by His saints (prophets).

When a saint speaks, it become scripture.

Our mind’s bible contemplations cannot take us fully to our desired goal … the goal of reaching and staying at the feet of the Blessed, Great and Glorious, Savior Jesus.

If we are not sages, … hermits in the desert, then our only chance to walk into the desert with Jesus and enter into Christ’s mystery of self sacrifice, is by His saints, and His communion.

The communion of saints is the CATHOLIC church. There is no other way to go, but by entering the vow of Jesus’ covenant. He presents Himself daily and offers Himself to you.

We must go with Him into the dry desert, and He will give the living water.

Your servant in Christ.

 

[mario_grgic]

Well, since Protestants don’t seem to be up to defending their faith here, let me give it a try.

RESOLVED: That the elements of Catholicism that distinguish it from other Christian denominations were invented sometime in 2C AD after the end of Acts and before it was legalied by Constantine when Christianity was persecuted by the Romans.

Such elements include: Real Presence, the hierarchy of leadership (fathers, bishops, etc.), as well many elements common to most Christian denominations such as the de-Judization of Christianity.

Protestantism is, therefore, a valient and honest effort to return Christianity to its roots by sola scriptura and the avoidance of traditions invented by the Church after the end of Acts.

First of all Catholicism is not a denomination. It’s God’s one true church.

Second, protestantism was invented 1500 years after Christ.

 

[jlhargus]

Yo, elvisman: When I referenced the scriptures about the Advocate, I believe that Jesus meant that said Advocate( the Holy Spirit) would help us to know when scripture was true So He is the one who shows me the Truth! Separated, yes, from the catholic church , but not from God:thumbsup:

JL: Gal2:1 Then fourteen years after I WENT UP AGAIN TO JERUSALEM with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2 And I went up BY REVELATION, and COMMUNICATED UNTO THEM **that GOSPEL **which **I PREACH **among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, LEST BY ANY MEANS I SHOULD run, or HAD RUN, IN VAIN. [Even though sent by Christ, Paul who had the gift of revelation, realized he could possibly not be preaching the same gospel as the Apostolic Fellowship. Paul was inspired by revelation to check his doctrine with that infallible doctrine of the Apostles’ Fellowship, sent by Christ, to teach all Christ commanded till the end of the age. The Apostolic Fellowship Christ promised the Holy Spirit would guide in ALL TRUTH. If individual Christians had the ability to be led into all truth, because they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we would all be one without the lest disagreement. We can see that is not the case.

What did people do the first time the gospel was preached by Peter? Acts2:41 Then** THEY THAT gladly RECEIVED HIS WORD were BAPTIZED: and the same day there **WERE ADDED UNTO THEM **about three thousand souls. 42 And they CONTINUED stedfastly IN the **APOSTLES’ DOCTRINE **and FELLOWSHIP, and in BREAKING OF BREAD, and in PRAYERS. [Those that received his word were baptized. They were ADDED to the Chruch (Apostles Fellowship) and continued stedfastly in doctrine, fellowship, breaking of bread (called mass today) and prayers in that One Holy Catholic Apostlic Fellowship.] 1Cor 1:9 God is faithful you were called into **THE FELLOWSHIP OF **his Son **JESUS CHRIST 10 I appeal to you BREATHREN by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that all of you AGREE **that there be no dissensions among you that you **BE UNITED **in the same mind and the same judgment. 1Jn 4:6 We are of God Whoever knows God **LISTENS TO US **and he who is not of God **DOES NOT LISTEN TO US BY THIS WE KNOW **the spirit of TRUTH and the spirit of ERROR

 

[mario_grgic]

Yo, elvisman: When I referenced the scriptures about the Advocate, I believe that Jesus meant that said Advocate( the Holy Spirit) would help us to know when scripture was true So He is the one who shows me the Truth! Separated, yes, from the catholic church , but not from God:thumbsup:

There lies the mistake that annuls protestantism. There are 30,000 protestant denominations all claiming that some truth was revealed to them by holy spirit. So which one is right, Jehova’s witnesses or perhaps Mormons?

But holy spirit does not lie. He would not go on a tell one truth to one group and another to a different group.

In fact we know who the father of lies is. So those truths are perhaps revealed by Satan.

This is what happens when you reject God, his church and as a consequence God’s teaching, since the sole mission of the church is to promulgate the truth revealed to it by God.

You go on and invent your God for you, thinking you are led by “the spirit”.

 

[Always_For_Him]

Also, just as Catholics place their faith in the inerrancy of the Church so Protestants place their faith in the inerrancy Bible. In both cases it is a leap of faith.

I would like to amend this quote. Catholics place their faith in the inerrancy of the Church because it was founded by Jesus Christ, by His Authority and It’s teachings on faith and morals remain true and unchanged through the power of the Holy Spirit just as Jesus promised. Protestants place their faith in their interpretation of what they feel the inerrant Bible says, then teach that as truth.

It is the errant interpretation that is the problem. There is only one meaning/one context. The reading, studying and teaching of the New Testament, which is Catholic teaching written down, was never meant to be separated from the Church that understood the context and wrote it down for you - the Catholic Church. To depart from Apostolic teaching means that man, on his own authority, made changes to teaching. Now, almost 500 years later, protestants don’t question “authority” the need for it, they deny it. Look at what denying Apostolic Authority has done. Man will ALWAYS have his own interpretation and feelings of what Scripture says, and that becomes truth for them. The problem is that then, they teach that as truth when, in fact, it is error. Jesus and the Apostles KNEW THAT. That is why they TRIED to cover it by saying scripture is not for one’s own interpretation and hold fast to the teachings and traditions that we have taught you. Over and over again we are warned to NOT deviate from what they are teaching us. It is these very teachings/traditions as taught by Christ and experienced with Christ, that the Catholic Church has preserved, not just for the centuries before the Bible was actually compiled, but for almost 2,000 years now. Luther and his buddies didn’t have the authority to take the Bible, make changes to it and then teach that we all have our own authority. We don’t. The New Testament IS the teachings of the Catholic Church. They have to be understood in the context that she wrote them, not separated from her and changed into what man wants them to be. Times change, man WANTS Jesus’ teaching to change, but it won’t. We are selfish, sinful people. Our goal is to conform OUR hearts and minds to God’s Will, not change His Words to suit ours.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I would like to amend this quote. Catholics place their faith in the inerrancy of the Church because it was founded by Jesus Christ, by His Authority and It’s teachings on faith and morals remain true and unchanged through the power of the Holy Spirit just as Jesus promised. Protestants place their faith in their interpretation of what they feel the inerrant Bible says, then teach that as truth.

I’ve taken this point up in a few other threads, e.g.:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=315510

The short of it is this: there is way to test the CC’s claim of authority apart from its authority. Yes, scripture says JC founded the church etc but guess who wrote the Bible and who interprets it inerrantly for us?

It is true that CC dogma is internally consistent but to say that “Catholics place their faith in the inerrancy of the Church because it was founded by Jesus Christ” is circular and not supported, ultimately, other than by faith.

(You can go the historical route but while that will get you scripture, it won’t get you inerrant interpretation of scripture.)

Luther and his buddies didn’t have the authority to take the Bible, make changes to it and then teach that we all have our own authority.

Which is to say, Protestantism isn’t Catholic. But since Protestants place their faith in their own interpretation of the Bible that’s not their concern.

 

[Always_For_Him]

Question is, it sufficient knowledge of God understood for salvation?

I would say no. If that were the case, Jesus wouldn’t have established a Church, gave the 12 men His Authority, direction and commands to establish His Church on earth that would teach His Truth until His return. He would have just dropped a book on the ground.

He gave us the way. Man, in the 16th century, on his own accord, took it upon themselves, actually believing they had any authority from Christ at all, SPLIT away from Christ’s Church to found their own to further their OWN ideology. Luther’s initial problem was NEVER with the Church’s teaching on faith and morals. It was on the erroneous sale of indulgences. Those reforms were already being implemented years before Luther was finally ex-communicated from the Church. He was teaching heresy, which was why he was formally ex-communicated. He had been repeatedly asked to stop. He was being led by pride and ego, political influence, popularity, no longer by God. He made changes to the BIBLE!!! HE made changes to Apostolic teaching that had been in place since Jesus. How could he possibly do that? He forever changed fractured Jesus’ One Body, the unity of Christianity by taking it upon himself, teaching his own interpretation, creating new doctrine. Look what that has done these last 500 years. Now, man thinks that each person has the authority to do that. WE DON’T. We have to follow what Jesus told us to follow - His Teaching. The only way we know Jesus’ teaching is by the Apostles and their successors. That is how you even have a Bible at all. To think you, yourself, your pastor, or your church, even if your church is 300 years old, knows what that Truth is, is to say that you or they have the authority to state what Truth is. You DON’T. Scripture tells us we DON’T and NOT to do that. You cannot separate the Bible from the Catholic Church who wrote it. Protestaism has, and that is the problem.

You HAVE to know the meaning/context of those words were when they were written down. No man outside the Magisterium of the Catholic Church, today or in the 1500’s knows what the actual meaning and context was then. They THINK they know. What they are actually doing is relying on their OWN interpretation.

You can only know the Truth if you understand the context in which it was written. Scripture doesn’t teach itself. Man has to interpret it. See the problem?

 

[Always_For_Him]

Bubba,

WHAT??? How could you not see contradicting doctrines or teachings as a problem? Isn’t this the crux of the problem, that there ARE contradictory teachings, thousands of them? Man cannot admit being wrong very easily, so when man comes to believe that he knows anything at all outside of Apostolic context, it is virtually impossible to get through his pride and ego so he can learn the Truth. Who are you or any man today to determine what the Truth is? Who gave you the authority to do that? You are doing it for yourself, by your own authority. That is protestantism in a nutshell.

If there is ONLY One Truth, then we are ALL obligated to learn IT. Not teach error as Truth. Discussing who is right and who is wrong and why is why we attempt to discern the Truth here. So, it DOES matter what teaching is right and what teaching is wrong. I hate using those words, but that is what it boils down to. You are CHOOSING to stay with what you have come to believe/have been taught/personally interpreted. You are right, it is divisive!!! It is divisive from Christ, His Church. The reformation ushered in that divisiveness. Christ’s Church denounced heresy through the centuries and NEVER changed it’s teachings on Faith and Morals. The churches established as a result of the reformation do not have the protection of Christ’s promise to guide and protect until His return. Christ ONLY gave that to His Church, to His Apostles to found His Church on earth. Protestantism is the result of man-made, pride and ego driven, divisiveness. Christ prayed for UNITY.

 

[jmcrae]

I’ve taken this point up in a few other threads, e.g.:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=315510

The short of it is this: there is way to test the CC’s claim of authority apart from its authority. Yes, scripture says JC founded the church etc but guess who wrote the Bible and who interprets it inerrantly for us?

It is true that CC dogma is internally consistent but to say that “Catholics place their faith in the inerrancy of the Church because it was founded by Jesus Christ” is circular and not supported, ultimately, other than by faith.

(You can go the historical route but while that will get you scripture, it won’t get you inerrant interpretation of scripture.)

Actually, what history gets you is a line of Popes going back to Peter, which brings you around to John 21:15-19 and Matthew 16:18-19.

We began to have the Bible in the 400s AD. (And yes, the individual books were around before that - but the collected-together-ness of them that causes them to comprise “the Bible” did not yet exist.

 

[Always_For_Him]

Yo, elvisman: When I referenced the scriptures about the Advocate, I believe that Jesus meant that said Advocate( the Holy Spirit) would help us to know when scripture was true So He is the one who shows me the Truth! Separated, yes, from the catholic church , but not from God:thumbsup:

He DIDN’T promise the advocate to each and every human being on earth! Christ promised it to His Church - to the men establishing His Church on earth and promised it forever to the men who would lead His Church on earth until His RETURN to keep His Church from error and protect it from the gates of hades. He didn’t promise to send an advocate to you, to me, to Luther, to Billy Graham, or each and every human being on earth. That is a new created theory that is LESS THAN 500 years old. Although, we are warned to be careful what spirit we follow.

 

[look3467]

look3467,

You are not understanding the meaning. Read James and try to listen to what he is saying. "We are are justified by works, and not by faith alone. Faith is the first thing Christ tells us we need. The works are not works of vain merit. The works are merited grace to us because of faith.

Jesus loves everyone, even atheists! But, just because Jesus loves everyone, does not mean they are justified and will make it into heaven. So, when you say, "being Catholic makes no difference to Jesus’ saving grace, He loves you just th same… You are correct. But, you are not explaining the reason why you are saying it. Noone is question Jesus’ ability to love everyone. It is a complex question that does not make sense.

With all due respect, I do not think you understand what Cathollic really means.

Prayerfully,

Coachstl

I understand your point and rightly so in that it is easy to understand that if we don’t “show” signs of good works it must mean that we are not justifying ourselves.

What you are not understanding is my point that has nothing to do with our own works for justification, but Jesus’ works are what justify us.

The difference has to do with either continuing in a dead state spiritually, as is, to one were we are born again not by our justification, but by Him who justified us with His grace.

Yes, true, that we tend to judge by what we see as evidence of being a true believer verses being justified by grace as a free gift to being a son of God by birth.

I am looking at the spiritual work done by God Himself in our behalf and you are looking at the physical work for our justification.

Can you see where I am coming from?

What is done spiritually is a work of God to the saving of the human soul.
What is done in the flesh is cursed or rewarded accordingly.

If the physical works, we think, are not in par with what God desires of us, then we must think we are condemned and subject to hell maybe?

Where my view leaves our salvation in the hands of Jesus and His righteousness, given to us without merit.

Unconditional love means just that, no conditions are required for the gift of salvation to become effective.

If our ears hear it, and our hearts believe it by faith, then we have the expectancy of being saved because Jesus paid the price for us, and if expectancy, then we accept it as being saved now.

I don’t have an argument with anything you say only when you make it an issue.

And the issue is because you are grounded in your own views (or the churches) as being more correct than what I am saying.

My view can harmoniously see yours without any disagreement, but is not the case with you’re view of mine.

If I am standing on a mountain peak, (spiritually speaking) I should be able to see all the valleys (religious views) below me as being a part of the journey ( to the top) to the mountain top.

Where if I was in the valley (spiritually) I would think that I was the only right one and condemn all others as I would be journeying to the top.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[look3467]

I think you’re mixing up two different concepts: pre-Christ holding,when the gates of heaven had not been opened, and purgatory, a place where individuals go.

(It’s also worth noting that Protestants and Catholics alike seem to forget about the resurrection of the body and imagine, instead, a disembodied heaven as a final destination.)

The question might but put differently: is there only two simple categories, “lost” and “saved” or is there a middle ground “being saved”?

No middle ground and the reason why is because there are only but two distinct states, dead or alive.

All are lost due to death state, and all are going to be made alive.

There is no in between.
There was a holding place which housed those who prior to Jesus’ coming who had lived and died in the lost state, but Jesus was sent there to visit them and liberate them with life.

If we “look” as my handle signifies, at the work of Christ to redeem that which was lost, you will see that we (humanity) had nothing to do with it except to participate in His crucifixion.

You will see that apart from that, is all the differences in the world, for every one has a religion in their attempts to reach God.

The new testament you will find is a “workbook” where we work out our salvation that we already have but don’t known which way, method, practice or belief is the best.

We are given guidelines, but ultimately, it is up to us to deliver the right attitude towards God and our fellow brothers and sisters.

I see love as being the only bonding agent between all the different beliefs.

Which ever, one happens to belong to, will indicate of what place God has in that heart.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[look3467]

lol! just like a protestant aka cafeteria christian to aknowledge a part and diregard the rest! the closest understanding and relationship you have with Christ is through the catholic church! You can be a child of christ but if you want to mature spiritualy and grow than you will practice the catholic faith!

You make my case. If not the Catholic Church, than it is a no go.

You offer no solution other than the Catholic church.

When the solution is Christ, then worship as you see it.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Always_For_Him]

The short of it is this: there is way to test the CC’s claim of authority apart from its authority. Yes, scripture says JC founded the church etc but guess who wrote the Bible and who interprets it inerrantly for us?.

Do you not believe that the Holy Spirit guided the Apostles and their successors then? If the Holy Spirit guided them then, did It just stop, leave? Jesus said it, so we believe it. Yes it is faith. THAT IS ALL WE HAVE. Christians today have the teachings of the Catholic Church as written down in the NT BECAUSE, the Church wrote it down for all future generations. The problem came in when MAN separated those writings from her and interpreted them themselves.

It is true that CC dogma is internally consistent but to say that “Catholics place their faith in the inerrancy of the Church because it was founded by Jesus Christ” is circular and not supported, ultimately, other than by faith…

I am not the most eloquent, consice writer, so, someone else may be able to write it better. But, I stand by that because there is a paper trail all the way back to the apostles. If you want to take the 50-60 year absence of certain writings to task, good luck. There are writings of Church magisterium during that period of time that beautifully spell out the practices, beliefs, etc. of the Church. That is all we have Bubba! Man has created everything else since the reformation on his own authority.

(You can go the historical route but while that will get you scripture, it won’t get you inerrant interpretation of scripture.).

This really doesn’t even make sense in light of everything we are TRYING to explain to you. If you don’t believe in the Catholic Church’s UNIVERSAL, 2,000 year-old interpretation, then you choose to believe something that man/men has espoused and taught in the last 500 years. That IS errant interpretation. Can’t you see that?

Which is to say, Protestantism isn’t Catholic. But since Protestants place their faith in their own interpretation of the Bible that’s not their concern.

If there was a way to get through the pride and ego of man so they could realize that they ARE, in fact, following their own/their church’s, Luther’s, whoever’s interpretation, then they would have an easier time of realizing their error. But, man, CAN’T very easily admit they are wrong in their beliefs. Only through the grace of God will they be able to take off their protestant glasses, open their hearts to His full-Truth. There is ONLY ONE. It was in unity before the Reformation. The change was brought on by man on his own accord.