The Invention of Catholicism?

[elvisman]

Actually it took the Apostles and those they placed in leadership to correct, heal and in some cases discipline the church when heresy broke out in a New Testament congregation-that is one of the reasons we have the Epistles.

For the record, I’m not a protestant if you were referring to me, and I claim the possibility that errors entered the church, and while all heresies are errors, not all errors are heresies. Even the Catholic church admitted it had errors that needed correcting in the 1500’s that’s why the Counter-Reformation happened.

Please tell me WHICH errors the Church claimed to have had in the 1500’s. Please enlighten me.
The Counter-Reformation occurred because of the heresies being spread by the Rebels (“Reformers”).

This is one of those half-truths/lies I was talking about.

 

[mark_a]

It is not mentioned in Acts that the apostles celebrated mass in the sense of consecrating the host to create a Real Presence.

So we should all be snake handlers?

 

[Non_Serviam]

I did read the conversation and I was responding to your uninformed rant.

And, the Pope doesn’t have to declare something in order for it to be true. However, things are declared and dogmas set in place when a heresy surrounding that particular belief arises or when there are abuses. This is the problem with people who don’t understand the Church - they just don’t get it so they make up their own suppositions , half-truths and lies about her.

I know George Washington was the first president - and the Pope didn’t have to tell me that.

Please tell me WHICH errors the Church claimed to have had in the 1500’s. Please enlighten me.
**The Counter-Reformation occurred because of the heresies **being spread by the Rebels (“Reformers”).

This is one of those half-truths/lies I was talking about.

No the Pope doesn’t have to declare something in order for it to be true, but you declaring there were dioceses and parishes in the NT church doesn’t make it true either-evidence please?

Pius V recognized the errors that were being permitted with regard to simony and the entry of the untrained into episcopal office. He worked for a uniform application of the canon law that existed in that period. Recognizing that many of the clergy were lacking the necessary education to carry out their duties Gregory XIII arranged for the creation of new colleges of learning and invested in many that had become unable to function properly due to a lack of funds.

Find any good Catholic reference source on those two people and you’ll see that my facts check out-religious offices were being purchased and many members of the clergy were functionally illiterate before Gregory’s reforms.

There are two errors to start you off.

 

[jmcrae]

No the Pope doesn’t have to declare something in order for it to be true, but you declaring there were dioceses and parishes in the NT church doesn’t make it true either-evidence please?

Pius V recognized the errors that were being permitted with regard to simony and the entry of the untrained into episcopal office. He worked for a uniform application of the canon law that existed in that period. Recognizing that many of the clergy were lacking the necessary education to carry out their duties Gregory XIII arranged for the creation of new colleges of learning and invested in many that had become unable to function properly due to a lack of funds.

Find any good Catholic reference source on those two people and you’ll see that my facts check out-religious offices were being purchased and many members of the clergy were functionally illiterate before Gregory’s reforms.

There are two errors to start you off.

These are failures in discipline; not errors in doctrine.

 

[elvisman]

These are failures in discipline; not errors in doctrine.

I was in a meeting - You took the words right out of my mouth.

 

[Non_Serviam]

These are failures in discipline; not errors in doctrine.

I was in a meeting - You took the words right out of my mouth.

When you two are done being self-congratulatory, tell me whether you think Paul, John or Peter would have been content to note the difference or whether they would have recognized that Jesus’ mandate to them wasn’t being fulfilled-the phrasing in Matthew was “teaching them to observe all things”

It’s not enough to teach, the recipients need to observe them and the Catholic church wasn’t doing that.

The Catholic church was content with the status quo until the Reformation and then it realized that cleanup had to occur to avoid further losses. Pius and Gregory changed the church’s direction in spite of opposition from a number of others in church leadership.

 

[jmcrae]

It’s not enough to teach, the recipients need to observe them and the Catholic church wasn’t doing that.

The more important question is, are we observing them? What happened in the past means nothing, if we don’t apply the lessons to today. But if you use the past as an excuse not to be obedient today, then you have completely missed the point of the lesson.

 

[Stephen168]

1. How did the scriptures come into existence?

My understanding of history is that a group of church leaders (Bishops?) decided which books were inspired by God and which were not. This created the canon. How can you, as a Protestant, accept the canon created by the authority of the Catholic Church as acceptable. How do you know you aren’t missing books or adding them?

What two issues are being confused? Are you suggesting the only Christian writings available to the Catholic Church to canonize were the ones it ultimately chose?

 

[Stephen168]

1. If you read the writings of the early Church Fathers, like Ignatius of Antioch- who was a follower of the Apostle John, you will find some very Catholic ideas. Ignatius is only one example, but let me focus in on him. He learned from John and he claimed that authority comes from Rome, he called those who do not believe in the real presence heretics, but you think he listened to the Apostle John, became a well known martyr for the faith (he was devoured by lions) and contradicted his mentor this badly? How could he be so far off base?

Absolutely, we already discussed his beliefs on Real Presence. But he is not in the NT.

Ignatius of Antioch lived in the first century and personally knew the Apostles. Luke the Evangelist lived in the first century and personally knew the Apostles. Why weren’t Ignatius’ writings included in the New Testament?

 

[CWBetts]

Ignatius of Antioch lived in the first century and personally knew the Apostles. Luke the Evangelist lived in the first century and personally knew the Apostles. Why weren’t Ignatius’ writings included in the New Testament?

 

[Stephen168]

Not that there was no more Catholic church. But that the Catholic church was influenced by some of those heretics and some of the doctrines that followed were erroneous. Not to derail the thread but transubstantiation is a very gnostic belief. Then some folks believe that too many pagan practices made their way into the church and don’t belong. I don’t think anyone actually believes the universal church disappeared until 1517. If that’s the case then someone is smoking something they shouldn’t be.

Transubstantiation is a word invented in the 13th century to explain the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist as taught in the first century.

In order of a something to be declared not level; there has to be a level. The Catholic Church is that level.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

So we should all be snake handlers?

You first.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

These are failures in discipline; not errors in doctrine.

Either way,they are variations in belief.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

What two issues are being confused? Are you suggesting the only Christian writings available to the Catholic Church to canonize were the ones it ultimately chose?

You are confusiong 1) the writing down of oral tradition, and 2) the canonization of such writings. And I might add 3) the widespread usage of such writings. Some gospels were not canonized (e.g. Gospel of Thomas).

The original question was how was scripture created. It was not created by canonization. Canonization is a recognition process, a post hoc judgement.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Ignatius of Antioch lived in the first century and personally knew the Apostles. Luke the Evangelist lived in the first century and personally knew the Apostles. Why weren’t Ignatius’ writings included in the New Testament?

That’s what I asked. Why Paul and Luke and not Ignatius?

 

[Stephen168]

That’s what I asked. Why Paul and Luke and not Ignatius?

I thought I read this thread from the beginning. Where did you ask that?

 

[Stephen168]

You are confusiong 1) the writing down of oral tradition, and 2) the canonization of such writings. And I might add 3) the widespread usage of such writings. Some gospels were not canonized (e.g. Gospel of Thomas).

The original question was how was scripture created. It was not created by canonization. Canonization is a recognition process, a post hoc judgement.

I didn’t see that confusion in Bry’s question. Sounds like you both agree. There were writings and the Catholic Church decided which ones were going to be in the canon.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I thought I read this thread from the beginning. Where did you ask that?

#78 (at the end) and another before that (can’t find now).

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I didn’t see that confusion in Bry’s question. Sounds like you both agree. There were writings and the Catholic Church decided which ones were going to be in the canon.

Right. But the key point with respect to sola scriptura is that the scriptures already had widespread legitimacy before canonization. Indeed, it would not be a great exageration to say that later canonization was in most part simply a legalization of an earlier de facto canonization.

 

[codebilly]

: That the elements of Catholicism that distinguish it from other Christian denominations were invented sometime in 2C AD after the end of Acts and before it was legalied by Constantine when Christianity was persecuted by the Romans. Such elements include: Real Presence, the hierarchy of leadership (fathers, bishops, etc.), as well many elements common to most Christian denominations such as the de-Judization of Christianity. **Protestantism is, therefore, a valient and honest effort **to return Christianity to its roots by sola scriptura and the avoidance of traditions invented by the Church after the end of Acts.

Actually it is a sin to willingly omit an important ancient part of Christian history to promote your agenda above.

There has been a recurring theory among so called religious historians and bible scholars of either “Paul invented Catholicism” , “Paul invented Christianity” or “Catholicism was invented in the 2nd century AD”.

All of these “scholars” completely ignore the history of the Catholic and church founded in India by St. Thomas the Apostle in 52AD.

" According to a very ancient tradition, Thomas
had ordained two bishops, four rambans, seven priests and twenty-
one deacons. That priesthood continued in unbroken succession from generation to generation in the families of Pakalomattam and
Sankarapuri."

– see this article

The liturgical church, its sacraments, and its Apostolic priesthood was established independent of western influence for nearly 3 centuries (post 52AD)

An important event of the second century was the coming of Pantacnus. Some Hindu leaders, enraged at the spread of Christianity, began to oppose the Christian faith and principles.
A Brahmin conjurer named Manickavachakar went around the country decrying Christianity. He was able to arouse the feelings of the Hindus against Christianity, to obstruct further spread of the religion and even to draw some converts back to Hinduism. Alarmed at this, the Kerala Christians sent a deputation to Demitrius, Bishop of Alexandria, requesting him to send a learned doctor to refute the arguments of Manickavachakar and to confirm the Christians in faith. Consequently, Pantaenus, the learned professor of the famous seminary of Alexandria, came to Kerala in 190. He defeated Manickavachakar in debate, brought back most of the apostatized to Christianity and gave a new awakening and spirit to the Kerala Church. As a mark of gratitude to him, the Saint Thomas Christians presented him with a copy of Matthew’s Gospel written to Syriac, believed to have been brought by Thomas.
This is recorded by Jerome and Eusebius. The Manigramakkar, a sect of caste Hindu Nairs found in Quilon and Mavelikara, still
preserve certain Christian customs; they are said to be the
descendants of those apostatized early Christians.

Therefore, all theorist claim Paul invented Catholicism or Christianity, or all evangelical protestant theories claiming the Catholic Church is a post 2nd century AD invention, are UTTERLY DESTROYED BY THE MISSION, HISTORY, TRADITION, AND LEGACY OF ST. THOMAS THE APOSTLE.

That is all.