The Invention of Catholicism?

[Bubba_Switzler]

You don’t have an evidence problem. You concede that scripture arises from the Church and not the other way around. Yet some nagging reservation keeps you from acknowledging that belief in the Real Presence is *consistent *withScripture, *very early *and continuous. I find it compelling that Ignatius of Antioch, who was Evangelized by the man who wrote the Bread of Life Discourse (!) believes that “This is my body” means “This IS my body.”

I agree with you that Real Presence is consistent with scripture, I’ve never disputed that.

But I find it entirely plausible that the concept of Real Presence was discovered (to use the preferred term here), and the practice spread, sometime in the 40 years after 65AD and that there was a great discontinuity in the early Church at that time leading, ultimately, to other adaptations as well (e.g. the institutionalized clergy).

What’s so special, you might ask, about 65AD? Well, if you’ll recall your history, 70AD was the destruction of the Jewish Temple which threw everyone into turmoil. The war actually began in 66AD (and Masada fell in 73AD).

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

The main urgency I see in this threads argument is about conversion to the Catholic church (obviously being a Catholic forum) rather than the object being to reaching the world to Christ via Christ Himself. It is the contents and not the container which affects the consumer.

For me that’s not the issue of interest. What’s interesting to me is the theology that underlies the moral choices. It’s tempting to say “a pox on organized religion” but the fact is that religions grapple with real questions that we face in everyday life. And different denominations give different answers.

 

[mercygate]

I agree with you that Real Presence is consistent with scripture, I’ve never disputed that.

But I find it entirely plausible that the concept of Real Presence was discovered (to use the preferred term here), and the practice spread, sometime in the 40 years after 65AD and that there was a great discontinuity in the early Church at that time leading, ultimately, to other adaptations as well (e.g. the institutionalized clergy).

What’s so special, you might ask, about 65AD? Well, if you’ll recall your history, 70AD was the destruction of the Jewish Temple which threw everyone into turmoil. The war actually began in 66AD (and Masada fell in 73AD).

Bubba.

Time to stop churning your brain and go the Blessed Sacrament in a quiet Catholic church, and ask the Boss Himself: Lord, if this is really YOU, teach me Yourself. If this is Your Truth, send Your Spirit to guide me into ALL the Truth. Open your Bible and read the Bread of Life Discourse . . . Don’t expect an instant miracle; the Spirit is gentle. He won’t hurt you. Let Him whisper in his “still, small voice.”

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Time to stop churning your brain and go the Blessed Sacrament in a quiet Catholic church, and ask the Boss Himself: Lord, if this is really YOU, teach me Yourself. If this is Your Truth, send Your Spirit to guide me into ALL the Truth. Open your Bible and read the Bread of Life Discourse . . . Don’t expect an instant miracle; the Spirit is gentle. He won’t hurt you. Let Him whisper in his “still, small voice.”

How do you know the Holy Spirit is not guiding me to explore these questions?

 

[mercygate]

How do you know the Holy Spirit is not guiding me to explore these questions?

He is. :getholy: I think it’s time to quiet the noise in your head and open your heart. :hug3:

 

[elvisman]

And you think the Catholic Church is completely faultless? Read this:
timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3838229.ece

Italy professes to be a Catholic nation - but a majority of Italians do not know “even the most basic facts” about the Bible, according to a survey.

The international poll, conducted by Eurisko for the Catholic Biblical Federation, showed that in Italy only 14 per cent of those questioned were able to answer a series of questions about the Bible correctly. They included whether Moses or St Paul featured in the Old Testament, whether Jesus had written any of the Gospels, and whether the Gospels form part of the Bible. Another question which defeated most Italians was: which of the following - Luke, John, Peter and Paul - wrote the Gospels?

Among the respondents 88 per cent of Italians described themselves as Roman Catholics, three quarters said they kept a Bible in their home, and 79 per cent said they felt their lives were “protected by God”. But only 32 per cent described themselves as “regular churchgoers”, and only 28 per cent thought the Bible should be taught in schools.

"In the beginning was the Word - but the Italians don’t read it" said La Stampa. Monsignor Vincenzo Paglia, Bishop of Terni and head of the Catholic Biblical Federation in Italy, said the findings “offer a challenge to which we must respond”.

**“Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ” - St. Jerome **This is your tag line. I think it’s appropriate.

When did I say the Church was faultless? Are you reading or just venting?

So, you’re going to judge the Catholic Church by Italy’s practices?**

**How about if I judged all Protestants by the huckster televangelists that are so transparently phony and care about nothing but the almightly dollar? ****I wouldn’t do that because it’s stupid to judge a religion that way. **You judge it by whether or not it’s the truth.

Also - consider your source “timesonline”. Nothing like an ultra-liberal, leftist, anti-Christian site to glean your “truth” from.

**Please . . . **

 

[ron77nyc]

When did I say the Church was faultless? Are you reading or just venting?

So, you’re going to judge the Catholic Church by Italy’s** practices?

Also - consider your source "timesonline". Nothing like an ultra-liberal, leftist, anti-Christian site to glean your “truth” from.

Please . . .

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0505102.htm

Experts say Catholics still don’t read Bible regularly

By Carol Glatz
Catholic News Service
VATICAN CITY (CNS) – While it may be a best-seller, the Bible still is not regularly read, nor has it become an integral part of many Catholics’ lives, said a panel of biblical experts.
“Unfortunately, it must be said, there is still little Bible in the lives of the faithful,” said Italian Bishop Vincenzo Paglia, president of the Catholic Bible Federation.

Recent research conducted in Italy, Spain and France found that many Catholics consider the sacred Scriptures as something “reserved for the clergy” rather than as an accessible resource for them to draw upon for truth and inspiration in their own lives, he said.

 

[The_Smiter]

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0505102.htm

Experts say Catholics still don’t read Bible regularly

By Carol Glatz
Catholic News Service
VATICAN CITY (CNS) – While it may be a best-seller, the Bible still is not regularly read, nor has it become an integral part of many Catholics’ lives, said a panel of biblical experts.
“Unfortunately, it must be said, there is still little Bible in the lives of the faithful,” said Italian Bishop Vincenzo Paglia, president of the Catholic Bible Federation.

Recent research conducted in Italy, Spain and France found that many Catholics consider the sacred Scriptures as something “reserved for the clergy” rather than as an accessible resource for them to draw upon for truth and inspiration in their own lives, he said.

Saying that Catholics do not read the Bible regularly is a lot different than saying that The Church commanded or restricted them from reading it.

 

[1beleevr]

Are we absolutely certain about the gender of the child, whom some claim was st. ignatius of Antioch, who supposedly sat in Jesus’s lap? Could the child have been a female? Let’see; Jesus died around 33 AD, and the best estimates are that ignatius was born somewhere around 35 AD! Hmmmmm!

 

[1beleevr]

I believe that someone said that us non-catholics were welcome at the catholic church. At most Christian churches, we believers are allowed to partake of communion! Would we be extended that privilege at any catholic church? But, I wouldn’t mind meeting the pope someday; I’d shake his hand and say “howdy”, and, "May the Lord of Heaven’s Armies, richly bless you! God Removes All Condemnation Evermore= Grace!!!

 

[ron77nyc]

Saying that Catholics do not read the Bible regularly is a lot different than saying that The Church commanded or restricted them from reading it.

Catholicism is not famous for giving bible studies. They are the one church that has the true eucharist but man does not live by bread alone.

 

[CWBetts]

Catholicism is not associated with bible studies. They are the one church that has the true eucharist but man does not live by bread alone.

What are you getting at? Are you trying to further thr myth that the Church dicuourages reading the Bible? I do not, at present, go to a Bible study group, but I read the Word of God daily. There are Catholic Bible studies out there however. I guess if I have questions about a passage, instead of relying on an author I don’t know I ask my spiritual director. And from experience (I used to be one of those schismatic Protestants, dontcha know) I have seen rebellion against a pastor start because a Bible study group disagreed with him. Bible studies are fine, but I think they should have close supervision of a Deacon, or Priest, to help safeguard agains hersies creeping in.

 

[elvisman]

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0505102.htm

Experts say Catholics still don’t read Bible regularly

By Carol Glatz
Catholic News Service
VATICAN CITY (CNS) – While it may be a best-seller, the Bible still is not regularly read, nor has it become an integral part of many Catholics’ lives, said a panel of biblical experts.
“Unfortunately, it must be said, there is still little Bible in the lives of the faithful,” said Italian Bishop Vincenzo Paglia, president of the Catholic Bible Federation.

Recent research conducted in Italy, Spain and France found that many Catholics consider the sacred Scriptures as something “reserved for the clergy” rather than as an accessible resource for them to draw upon for truth and inspiration in their own lives, he said.

Well, the experts are wrong.
The average Mass-attending Catholic reads and hears almost the entire bible in a 3-year cycle - with homilies (sermons).

**It would be accurate to say that MOST of Christendom never read the bible for about 1700 years - because they were illiterate. Did that make them lesser Christians? Nope. **
Only to an uninformed Protestant who doesn’t know his history.

Reading the Bible was never a possibility for the Early Church in the first 4 centuries because it hadn’t even been compiled and canonized yet. They relied much on word of mouth teaching - and many of them were much greater Christians than most of the last 5 centuries.

**So, tell me - what is it you’re trying to prove here? **

 

[ron77nyc]

So, tell me - what is it you’re trying to prove here?

What are you getting at? Bible studies are fine, but I think they should have close supervision of a Deacon, or Priest, to help safeguard agains hersies creeping in.

The bible is a Catholic book and the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth so don’t hide it…divide it. Teach it at CCD. Teach it in Catholic high schools. Teach it to future priests so they can preach it at Mass.

 

[dawid]

Catholicism is not famous for giving bible studies. They are the one church that has the true eucharist but man does not live by bread alone.

The Catholic Church, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit provided the New Testament books of the Bible that Christians may read.
The Orthodox Churches also have the Real Presence in their Eucharist.

The Catholic Church also started with a lack of faith - eleven of the twelve Apostles abandoned Jesus at the Crucifixion, but eventually were faithful followers, even to the point of martyrdom.

We, like all other Christians suffer lack of will and faith - we all need prayer - please pray for us.

 

[ron77nyc]

The Orthodox Churches also have the Real Presence in their Eucharist.

Thanks for the correction. I wasn’t aware of that.

 

[elvisman]

The bible is a Catholic book and the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth so don’t hide it…divide it. Teach it at CCD. Teach it in Catholic high schools. Teach it to future priests so they can preach it at Mass.

**Who’s hiding the Word? **I already told you that the average Mass-attending Catholic reads and hears almost the entire bible in a 3-year cycle.
The word was being proclaimed to Catholics for centuries before the Protestant Rebellion.

Is IS taught to future priests. I don’t know where you’re getting your information from. Have you ever been to mass?

 

[jmcrae]

Catholicism is not famous for giving bible studies. They are the one church that has the true eucharist but man does not live by bread alone.

Actually, all of the best Bible studies I’ve ever taken were at Catholic Churches. And they were the only ones that were free of charge, too. The ones my Protestant mother goes to are $100.00 or more for 6-8 90 minute sessions, but the ones at my parish are every Tuesday morning from the end of morning Mass until noon (usually 2.5 hours), from mid-September to mid-June.

I think they are poorly advertised - one hears about them by word of mouth - but they’re definitely there.

 

[ron77nyc]

Actually, all of the best Bible studies I’ve ever taken were at Catholic Churches. And they were the only ones that were free of charge, too. The ones my Protestant mother goes to are $100.00 or more for 6-8 90 minute sessions, but the ones at my parish are every Tuesday morning from the end of morning Mass until noon (usually 2.5 hours), from mid-September to mid-June.

I think they are poorly advertised - one hears about them by word of mouth - but they’re definitely there.

Yes, they are finally getting around to it after 2000 years. The Pope will be on TV in Italy starting a bible reading marathon. That was never heard of before. Now I hope someone doesn’t tell me that’s because the church didn’t always have television.

 

[fbl9]

I believe that someone said that us non-catholics were welcome at the catholic church. At most Christian churches, we believers are allowed to partake of communion! Would we be extended that privilege at any catholic church? But, I wouldn’t mind meeting the pope someday; I’d shake his hand and say “howdy”, and, "May the Lord of Heaven’s Armies, richly bless you! God Removes All Condemnation Evermore= Grace!!!

Like you would participate in the Sacrement of reconcillation.Since you don’t even beleive most Catholics are baptised how could that even be remotely consider being in communion?