The Invention of Catholicism?

[dawid]

Elvisman: Jesus did tell us not to call any man on this earth "Father(upper case)!!! And we do only have ONE Father, who is God! Jesus rebuked the Pharisees( there are still some among us) for saying thaT Abraham was their Father; instead revealing their evil hearts, and telling them that Satan was their father(lower case). Bottom line is, the pope is only holy father to the catholic religion! To the rest of us believers, he is just the pope; sorry!

Your quote is from the New Testament and is correct - however, if you take these literally, then you would also be commanded to “hate your father”.
I don’t believe our Lord intended us to hate our parents or anyone else!

Bear in mind that the books of the New Testament were composed by Catholic Church Fathers in the context of the Apostolic Tradition. St Peter was, as the bishop of Rome, the pope by Jesus’s authority - although often engaging in debate, the others still deferred to him.

Doctrine and dogma handed down in Tradition, have remained stable with the Church still adhering to them. Other Christian faith groups have changed to suit popular opinion, eg contraception, while the Catholic faith has remained steadfast in its opposition to the practice.

The pope remains the pope with his authority irrespective of whether you recognise his role or not.

 

[dawid]

I keep harping on this because it relates to The Invention of Catholicism. The early church relied heavily on scripture for teaching. Thankfully the Pope is getting back to doing that.

The Catholic Church was established by Jesus with St Peter as the head (or Rock).

The early Church used Sacred Scripture (old Testament) until the Books of the New Testament were accepted as canon by the pope of the time.

Each Mass has several Scripture readings, so Catholics do have exposure to the Bible, but I agree with what I believe your sentiments to be - Catholics should spend more time in private reading and reflection on the Holy Scriptures.

Please pray for us that we do!

 

[CWBetts]

Cost of a venti Starbucks Caramel Macchiato& Scone: about $7!Filluup for Mazda:$35,Going to Heaven without stopping at purgatory: Priceless!!!

However there are very few of us who make that journey. Unless you are willing to say that you have reached a state of total purification in your life here on earth. To deny pirgatory is actually quite unscriptural.

 

[ron77nyc]

Please define early church as used in this sentence.

St. Irenaeus of Lyons (+ca.195):
We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith.

(Against Heresies, 3:1.1, in The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. I, p. 414.)

St. Athanasius (c.296-373):
The holy and inspired Scriptures are fully sufficient for the proclamation of the truth.

(Against the Heathen, I:3, quoted in Carl A. Volz, Faith and Practice in the Early Church [Minneapolis: Augsburg Publishing House, 1983], p. 147.)

St. Cyril of Jerusalem (c.310-386):
For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell you these things, give not absolute credence, unless you receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning, but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures.

(Catechetical Lectures, IV:17, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers [Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1983 reprint], Second Series, Vol. VII, p. 23.)

St. Gregory of Nyssa (330-395):
…we are not entitled to such license, namely, of affirming whatever we please. For we make Sacred Scripture the rule and the norm of every doctrine. Upon that we are obliged to fix our eyes, and we approve only whatever can be brought into harmony with the intent of these writings.

(On the Soul and the Resurrection, quoted in Jaroslav Pelikan, The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition [Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1971], p. 50.)

St. Gregory of Nyssa:
Let the inspired Scriptures then be our umpire, and the vote of truth will be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words.

(On the Holy Trinity, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Second Series, Vol. V, p. 327.)

**St. Augustine of Hippo (354-430):**Let them show their church if they can, not by the speeches and mumblings of the Africans, not by the councils of their bishops, not by the writings of any of their champions, not by fraudulent signs and wonders, because we have been prepared and made cautious also against these things by the Word of the Lord; but [let them show their church] by a command of the Law, by the predictions of the prophets, by songs from the Psalms, by the words of the Shepherd Himself, by the preaching and labors of the evangelists; that is, by all the canonical authorities of the sacred books.

(On the Unity of the Church, 16, quoted in Martin Chemnitz, Examination of the Council of Trent, Part I [Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1971], p. 159.)

St. John Chrysostom:
They say that we are to understand the things concerning Paradise not as they are written but in a different way. But when Scripture wants to teach us something like that, it interprets itself and does not permit the hearer to err. I therefore beg and entreat that we close our eyes to all things and follow the canon of Holy Scripture exactly.

(Homily 13 on Genesis.)

St. Basil the Great (c.329-379):
They are charging me with innovation, and base their charge on my confession of three hypostases [persons], and blame me for asserting one Goodness, one Power, one Godhead. In this they are not wide of the truth, for I do so assert. Their complaint is that their custom does not accept this, and that Scripture does not agree. What is my reply? I do not consider it fair that the custom which obtains among them should be regarded as a law and rule of orthodoxy. If custom is to be taken in proof of what is right, then it is certainly competent for me to put forward on my side the custom which obtains here. If they reject this, we are clearly not bound to follow them. Therefore let God-inspired Scripture decide between us; and on whichever side be found doctrines in harmony with the Word of God, in favor of that side will be cast the vote of truth.

(Letter 189 [to Eustathius the physician], 3, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Second Series, Vol. VIII, p. 229.)

St. Basil the Great:
What is the mark of a faithful soul? To be in these dispositions of full acceptance on the authority of the words of Scripture, not venturing to reject anything nor making additions. For, if “all that is not of faith is sin” as the Apostle says, and “faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God,” everything outside Holy Scripture, not being of faith, is sin.

(The Morals, in The Fathers of the Church, Vol. 9, p. 204.)

St. Basil the Great:
We are not content simply because this is the tradition of the Fathers. What is important is that the Fathers followed the meaning of the Scripture.

(On the Holy Spirit, 7:16.)

St. John of Damascus (c.675-c.749):
It is impossible either to say or fully to understand anything about God beyond what has been divinely proclaimed to us, whether told or revealed, by the sacred declarations of the Old and New Testaments.

(On the Orthodox Faith, I:2, in The Fathers of the Church, Vol. 37

 

[jmcrae]

Cost of a venti Starbucks Caramel Macchiato& Scone: about $7!Filluup for Mazda:$35,Going to Heaven without stopping at purgatory: Priceless!!!

So then, go to Confession once a week, receive Holy Communion every day, and wear the Scapular, and keep the Scapular promises, by fasting and abstaining from meat every Wednesday and Friday, and by praying the Little Office of the Virgin Mary every morning and evening. All of which means nothing, unless you also live the perfect life of a Saint, by giving to the poor, visiting the sick and those who are in prison, clothing the naked, and by following all of the precepts and disciplines of the Church.

 

[elvisman]

That excuse is not new. It’s not a bible study.

It’s not an excuse - it’s a fact.

You didn’t answer my question.
Have you ever been to mass?
Are you a Catholic - as you claim in your profile?

 

[PJM]

=Bubba Switzler;4788004]Well, since Protestants don’t seem to be up to defending their faith here, let me give it a try.

RESOLVED: That the elements of Catholicism that distinguish it from other Christian denominations were invented sometime in 2C AD after the end of Acts and before it was legalied by Constantine when Christianity was persecuted by the Romans.

Such elements include: Real Presence, the hierarchy of leadership (fathers, bishops, etc.), as well many elements common to most Christian denominations such as the de-Judization of Christianity.

Protestantism is, therefore, a valient and honest effort to return Christianity to its roots by sola scriptura and the avoidance of traditions invented by the Church after the end of Acts.

Actually, it’s agreat deal more like a manifestation of a very active immagination

Your position is untenable and factually antibiblical. Please give evidence of your positions.

Even your King James (mostly Catholic) bible affirms this.

Expain to me please Mt. 16:18-20, John 20:23, John 6:40-60, as starters. Oh and quote them from the KJV, if you wish.

Oh and as to your “sola scriptura,” so bible literate, show me evidence of SS in the bible. The look up John 21:24-25.

I’d love to debate this topicc with you, on two conditions.

1. Always with charity
2. Always in and with truth

May God bless and keep you!

 

[elvisman]

Elvisman: Jesus did tell us not to call any man on this earth "Father(upper case)!!! And we do only have ONE Father, who is God! Jesus rebuked the Pharisees( there are still some among us) for saying thaT Abraham was their Father; instead revealing their evil hearts, and telling them that Satan was their father(lower case). Bottom line is, the pope is only holy father to the catholic religion! To the rest of us believers, he is just the pope; sorry!

Unfortunately for you, you’re just another bitter Protestant who, instead of reading scripture and understanding it, has chosen to take what Jesus said out of context as a means of further seperating yoursdelf from his Church.

What do you call the guy who sired you? What do you call the lady who taught you in 3rd grade? You’re just playing silly word games because you don’t like the Catholic Church.

**In 2 Kgs. 2:12, Elisha cries, “My father, my father!” to Elijah is carried up to heaven in a whirlwind. **
Later, in 2 Kgs. 6:21, Elisha himself is called a father by the king of Israel.
In Acts 7:2, where Stephen refers to “our father Abraham,” and in Romans 9:10, Paul speaks of "our father Isaac."
Ummmm, were Elisha, Paul and Stephen sinning when they made these statements?

These silly beliefs came from a complete misunderstandiong of scripture by prideful, rebellious anti-Catholics.

 

[elvisman]

Unfortunately for you, you’re just another bitter Protestant who, instead of reading scripture and understanding it, has chosen to take what Jesus said out of context as a means of further seperating yoursdelf from his Church.

What do you call the guy who sired you? What do you call the lady who taught you in 3rd grade? You’re just playing silly word games because you don’t like the Catholic Church.

In 2 Kgs. 2:12, Elisha cries, “My father, my father!” to Elijah is carried up to heaven in a whirlwind.
Later, in 2 Kgs. 6:21, Elisha himself is called a father by the king of Israel.
In Acts 7:2, where Stephen refers to “our father Abraham,” and in Romans 9:10, Paul speaks of “our father Isaac.”
Ummmm, were Elisha, Paul and Stephen sinning when they made these statements?

Your silly beliefs came from a complete misunderstandiong of scripture by prideful, rebellious anti-Catholics.

 

[ron77nyc]

It’s not an excuse - it’s a fact.

Substituting scripture readings at mass for bible study is like telling a child who always wanted piano lessons “We always played music in the house.”

You didn’t answer my question.
Have you ever been to mass?
Are you a Catholic - as you claim in your profile?

I was born into Catholicism and I went to Mass every Sunday. I attended one of the best Catholic high schools in New York in the 1960’s just after Vatican II and the good brothers were seeking new ways to teach religion but no one ever considered teaching the bible. I realize bible studies are becoming more common in Catholic churches but still not easy to find. If you have one at your church you are very fortunate. The American Catholic church today is ahead of the rest of the Catholics in the world concerning the bible. My comments are directed more at the history of Catholicism than Catholicism today.

 

[codebilly]

St. Gregory of Nyssa (330-395):
…we are not entitled to such license, namely, of affirming whatever we please. For we make Sacred Scripture the rule and the norm of every doctrine. Upon that we are obliged to fix our eyes, and we approve only whatever can be brought into harmony with the intent of these writings.

(On the Soul and the Resurrection, quoted in Jaroslav Pelikan, The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition [Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1971], p. 50.)

Dear Ron77nyc,

Why are you having this “argument”? Do you want to start your own church … perhaps …** “Sola Scriptura Church of New York”** — What shall it’s creed be:

• We shall read the scriptures and interpret them according to thy inspirations"
• Wherever we disagree about the meanings of the scriptures, we shall create a separate branch of Sola Scriptura Church of New York … Each separate branch shall be called “MyFootnote in the Sola Scriptura Church of New York”.
• We believe that each Footnote of our Church is True
• Make up your own rule about the church here.

 

[ron77nyc]

Dear Ron77nyc,

Why are you having this “argument”? Do you want to start your own church … perhaps …** “Sola Scriptura Church of New York”** — What shall it’s creed be:

• We shall read the scriptures and interpret them according to thy inspirations"
• Wherever we disagree about the meanings of the scriptures, we shall create a separate branch of Sola Scriptura Church of New York … Each separate branch shall be called “MyFootnote in the Sola Scriptura Church of New York”.
• We believe that each Footnote of our Church is True
• Make up your own rule about the church here.

I’m having this argument because the Church has always neglected the teaching of scripture. That is the reason for the Protestant Reformation and that is why most Jehovah’s Witnesses are ex-Catholics.

 

[jmcrae]

I’m having this argument because the Church has always neglected the teaching of scripture. That is the reason for the Protestant Reformation and that is why most Jehovah’s Witnesses are ex-Catholics.

Actually, the reasons for the Protestant Reformation were political and economic; they had very little to do with the doctrine of the faith, and almost nothing to do with the Bible. It was about getting power for the local princes and feudal lords, in order to create nation-states. The peasants were no more free to read and interpret the Bible as they wished under Lutheranism than they were under the Pope.

 

[codebilly]

I’m having this argument because the Church has always neglected the teaching of scripture. That is the reason for the Protestant Reformation and that is why most Jehovah’s Witnesses are ex-Catholics.

Actually Ron, you are really mistaken. The Catholic Church doesn’t teach “scripture”? O my gosh?

1st of all, do you have any idea of how many Catholic grade schools there are in the United States alone? There is no broader wider scale institution of teaching children the bible !

Did you go to Catholic school? Did you learn about Abraham? Noah?, Moses? Joseph? King David? Solomon? Did you learn your bible stories there?

I did, even in pre school.

If as a youth, you wanted more, you could have asked to attend Catholic High School and talked to the priests or religious about entering the seminary.

Did you do that? In the seminary, you will learn bible extensively. My brother went to the seminary in the 9th Grade. So you also, could have gone that early.

But it seems God may not have called you then , or you did not have an ear open to God in the 9th grade.

Or is it, that you condemn the Church’s Bible study programs for grown ups who either did not pay attention to their teachers in Catholic grade school, or did not pay attention to their lessons in Sunday school?

 

[codebilly]

The United States had 7,498 Catholic schools in 2006-07, including 6,288 elementary schools and 1,210 secondary schools. In total there were 2,320,651 students, including 1,682,412 students in the elementary/middle schools and 638,239 in high schools.

**Glory to God in the Highest. The Catholic Church teaches the Bible to millions **every single day in classrooms with real bible study lessons!!!

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by Cluny
That’s what Catholis say, but we don’t read in Acts that the apostles were conducting Catholic mass services.

My dear friend in Christ,

I sure hope you got a GREAT DEAL on your bible, because it’s missing a whole lot of pages.::tiphat:
Or hadn’t you noticed:whacky:

If it makes you feel better, its not id Revelations either. Bu the way have you read John Chapter 6:40-60? Good stuff in there!

Let us pray.

God bless you

 

[PJM]

What chapter?

Dear frind in Christ,

We know the answer is YES!

And friend, in your heart, I think you know it too:D

 

[PJM]

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0505102.htm

Experts say Catholics still don’t read Bible regularly

By Carol Glatz
Catholic News Service
VATICAN CITY (CNS) – While it may be a best-seller, the Bible still is not regularly read, nor has it become an integral part of many Catholics’ lives, said a panel of biblical experts.
“Unfortunately, it must be said, there is still little Bible in the lives of the faithful,” said Italian Bishop Vincenzo Paglia, president of the Catholic Bible Federation.

Recent research conducted in Italy, Spain and France found that many Catholics consider the sacred Scriptures as something “reserved for the clergy” rather than as an accessible resource for them to draw upon for truth and inspiration in their own lives, he said.

My dear friend in Christ,

Sincere thanks for sharring this sad, but well know fact. It’s somewhat of a relief, to be “charged with the truth.”:tiphat:

However, I am one of very many Catholics that does read, and does know the bible. Not only that, But I don’t pick and chose only the parts I like, so what would you like me to share with you?

How about Mt. 16:18-20?or John 20:23, or John 6:40-60 for starters? Or mabe John 21: 24-25, or 2 Cor.6: 1-3, or heres a good one; 2 Cor. 11:12, and Phil. 2:12.

That will do as a start

God bless you friend,

 

[CWBetts]

I’m having this argument because the Church has always neglected the teaching of scripture. That is the reason for the Protestant Reformation and that is why most Jehovah’s Witnesses are ex-Catholics.

First, the Catholic Church does not neglect the teaching of Scripture. If it did, my future MA Theology courseloead would be alot lighter, but I have to take alot of Bible Classes. Second, can we have a reliable, relevant sourrce for your bogus claim?

 

[ron77nyc]

Actually Ron, you are really mistaken. The Catholic Church doesn’t teach “scripture”? O my gosh?

1st of all, do you have any idea of how many Catholic grade schools there are in the United States alone? There is no broader wider scale institution of teaching children the bible !

Did you go to Catholic school? Did you learn about Abraham? Noah?, Moses? Joseph? King David? Solomon? Did you learn your bible stories there?

I did, even in pre school.

If as a youth, you wanted more, you could have asked to attend Catholic High School and talked to the priests or religious about entering the seminary.

Did you do that? In the seminary, you will learn bible extensively. My brother went to the seminary in the 9th Grade. So you also, could have gone that early.

But it seems God may not have called you then , or you did not have an ear open to God in the 9th grade.

Or is it, that you condemn the Church’s Bible study programs for grown ups who either did not pay attention to their teachers in Catholic grade school, or did not pay attention to their lessons in Sunday school?

You’re right. It’s all my fault.