The Invention of Catholicism?

[jmcrae]

To ron, dawid, and jm…

I am intrigued in the discourse you all are having, but must admit I’m lost as to what precisely it is that you’re debating.

If you had to put a title on this little debate, what would it be?

Thanks, that’ll help me stay informed as you continue in your dialogue

God Bless

I think I might title it, “If someone sinned in the Vatican five hundred years ago, should I invent my own religion?”

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

i would like to join in this debate by saying that the invention of Catholicism is actually just the advancement of Christianity. We forget that we are Human.we are a learning spiecies.

Give this man gold star!

 

[dawid]

I am afraid you lost me here - it’s probaly a typo - we are after all, fallible, aren’t we!

This one is a religious tradition in all religions. It needs no explanation.

I’m afraid it does - Churches do collect money for various purposes like upkeep of the church and clergy, charity etc. There are those leaders of churches that live very wealthy lives - I would accept that that is not the correct purpose of those funds - the Catholic clergy in general do not live wealthy lives, while those in poor countries live lives similar to the poor.

Selling of indulgences. I know…it’s not true.

I beg to differ - I am sure that there were people that abused indulgences - it however does not make it Church practice or representative of the Faith!

Yes, it is a reason to rebel. That’s what people do when they are unfairly dominated. Domination is more the work of Satan than God.

I’m unsure what you mean by domination - the Church did have abuses and corruption, but the fullness of faith remains.

Have you noticed that the faith of the schisms are also remaining?

The churches that were spawned by the revolt in the 16th century have mulitiplied and differ so much from each other and their founding fathers such as Luther and Calvin that it is a form of oppression (of confusion) and surely must please Satan. However I believe that our Lord will use these seperated bretheren of our to His own good and conquer Satan.
We should pray for that!

 

[ron77nyc]

I think I might title it, “If someone sinned in the Vatican five hundred years ago, should I invent my own religion?”

It’s “The Invention of Catholicism.” The practices of the Church that were never part of apostolic teaching. I gave 2 solid examples of how the apostles dealt with sexual immorality and stealing money. They did not deny it happened or explain it away. They put a stop to it immediately. They didn’t say “Well you know nobody is perfect.” They didn’t say, “Everybody knows we don’t teach that as dogma.” It’s relative to the way the Church did business into the 20th century.

 

[jmcrae]

This one is a religious tradition in all religions. It needs no explanation.

Selling of indulgences. I know…it’s not true.

Yes, it is a reason to rebel. That’s what people do when they are unfairly dominated. Domination is more the work of Satan than God.

Have you noticed that the faith of the schisms are also remaining?

I can’t find what you’re responding to, but it wasn’t me.

But what do you mean when you say people were “selling Indulgences”? Whether or not you have an Indulgence is between you and God. Nobody else knows about it, unless you tell them. There is no physical aspect to an Indulgence that you can purchase. They don’t carry them in the gift shop at the Church. It’s an action that you do in secret for God.

 

[ron77nyc]

This is a generalization.
I don’t think you really believe this applies to all Catholics.

michel

I apologize for the generalization.

 

[1beleevr]

Uh-oh, we may need to call the Scripture Police! There seems to be a dispute about interpretation, and a possible violation of Matthew 7:1-5. To be quite honest with you, this is what humans do; interpret things, including scripture how they feel it should be. In talking with catholic apologetics, including: Jim Blackburn, Jimmy Akin, Peggy Frye, among others, they have used on occasion, phrases such as,“quite possibly”, “most likely”, I’m sure that’s what they meant", in explaining scripture! Nobody(human) is always right or always wrong! And I am not a Protestant(label given to me by catholics)

 

[cazayoux]

Selling of indulgences. I know…it’s not true.

Sadly it is.
There were abuses on both sides of the confessional in regards to alms-giving.
While alms-giving is a good and whole thing to do, the abuses are exactly why it is not a part of the confessional today.

The teachings on alms-giving are correct and from the bible.
The humans that abused it were not properly following the teaching.

As I stated before, we are human, sinful people.
That doesn’t change the correct teachings.

michel

 

[jmcrae]

It’s “The Invention of Catholicism.” The practices of the Church that were never part of apostolic teaching. I gave 2 solid examples of how the apostles dealt with sexual immorality and stealing money. They did not deny it happened or explain it away. They put a stop to it immediately. They didn’t say “Well you know nobody is perfect.” They didn’t say, “Everybody knows we don’t teach that as dogma.” It’s relative to the way the Church did business into the 20th century.

Just because we don’t run around in the streets parading people’s sins around, or carve scarlet letters into their foreheads, doesn’t mean that anybody is “getting away with” anything. If a leader in the Church commits a sexual sin or steals money, he or she is dealt with according to the law, and is not permitted to remain in their position of leadership.

But you don’t hear about it for the same reason that you don’t hear about it when bankers do it, or when oil men do it, etc. And for some reason, everyone understands that those people need their privacy, and that it’s none of our business, and that there is a due process of law, to discern whether he is actually guilty, or not. But if it’s a Church leader, and especially if he’s Catholic, he’s “obviously guilty” and “getting away with it” unless he is being dragged around in the mud for all to see and mock.

 

[ron77nyc]

I can’t find what you’re responding to, but it wasn’t me

.
Sorry, maybe it wasn’t you.

But what do you mean when you say people were “selling Indulgences”? Whether or not you have an Indulgence is between you and God. Nobody else knows about it, unless you tell them. There is no physical aspect to an Indulgence that you can purchase. They don’t carry them in the gift shop at the Church. It’s an action that you do in secret for God.

 

[jmcrae]

Sadly it is.
There were abuses on both sides of the confessional in regards to alms-giving.

What have Indulgences to do with the Confessional?

While alms-giving is a good and whole thing to do, the abuses are exactly why it is not a part of the confessional today.

You mean, why it is not possible to receive an Indulgence for almsgiving. You could still be assigned a penance in the Confessional, to give alms. You just would not receive an Indulgence for it.

 

[ron77nyc]

If you want me to “butt out” just say so. If you think that Catholic theology is “mumbo jumbo” then why do you call yourself Catholic?..

I don’t want you out and I have no authority to even suggest it. Are you being honest? If you are then I apologize. Mumbo jumbo is what people invent to cover up.

 

[SteveGC]

Uh-oh, we may need to call the Scripture Police! There seems to be a dispute about interpretation, and a possible violation of Matthew 7:1-5. To be quite honest with you, this is what humans do; interpret things, including scripture how they feel it should be. In talking with catholic apologetics, including: Jim Blackburn, Jimmy Akin, Peggy Frye, among others, they have used on occasion, phrases such as,“quite possibly”, “most likely”, I’m sure that’s what they meant", in explaining scripture! Nobody(human) is always right or always wrong! And I am not a Protestant(label given to me by catholics)

No, humans is far too broad a category to pin the activity of interpreting Scripture on. Far TOO MANY humans do it, that’s for sure. But there are some humans that don’t. Those humans are called Catholics - more precisely, the Catholic laity. We don’t do it, not just because we don’t have to, but because God never intended us to. There are a hand-picked few (Hand of God-picked, that is) who were SENT to us all to interpret Sacred Scripture, and shepherd us in Truth with Christ Jesus. We can trust in these humans fully, because Christ appointed them, and promised The Spirit to protect them, and He Himself to never leave them. These humans still exist today, annointed successors of the originals.

As far as the apologists you listed, none of them interpret Scripture. Yet they, like all of us, are free to speculate, learn from, debate over various features of Christendom, as revealed in Sacred Scripture, so long as they all remain within the protected boundaries of the deposit of faith entrusted to The Church. This is what you’re witnessing when you see phrases like “most likely”, or “quite possibly”, etc.

God Bless

 

[jmcrae]

Paying for reduction in purgatory time. For along time the Church told people that the pope was Christ on earth. If you paid him he would give you less time in purgatory.

Um - no. What happened was, using the power of the keys (Matthew 16:18-19) the Pope offered an Indulgence to people who gave money to his building projects (the Sistine Chapel, for example, and the work that was being done there by Michelangelo, especially the paintings on the ceiling - which by the way I notice are continually being reproduced even in Protestant books and on Protestant videos, so I think we all agree that those paintings are inspirational and help us to know God better - and without the money, this certainly would not have been done).

To receive the Indulgence, the person would, say for example, give some money to Michelangelo so that he could buy some paint for this project, and maybe have something to eat, pay his rent, and stuff like that.

The person would then pray one Our Father and one Hail Mary for the intentions of the Pope, go to Confession, and receive Holy Communion. Then God (not the Pope) would remit the temporal punishment for sins already forgiven. But whether or not he did this, in the first place, would be between him and God. Nobody in the world - nt the Pope or anybody - would know that the person had collected an Indulgence (that is, said the prayers, gone to Confession, and received Holy Communion) for sending in the money for this project.

The money had to be raised anyway. The Pope offered an Indulgence for it because the project was of spiritual value to the whole Church. In those days, instead of offering an Indulgence for free-will offerings, he could have easily asked the feudal lords to impose a tax, and paid for it that way. It would certainly have improved Michelangelo’s cash flow, if he had, and the project would have been done years earlier (since Michelangelo often had to stop working on the project in order to get paying jobs, to keep body and soul together, when the whole “selling Indulgences” myth got started, and the money quit coming in.)

 

[greggy53]

I don’t want you out and I have no authority to even suggest it. Are you being honest? If you are then I apologize. Mumbo jumbo is what people invent to cover up.

No need to apologize to me. I’m trying to be honest. I am very curious as to why you are Catholic? I was very angry with the church a few years ago (The sex scandal thing) and thought about leaving. But after many months of soul searching I came to the conclusion that I still believed in the Sacraments, and the authority of the church to administer them, so where else could I go? There is plenty of mumbo jumbo in the affairs of men. In the behavior of individuals, but the bottom line is that the teachings of the church remain the pillar of our faith.

 

[SteveGC]

That’s what I was going to ask too, ron.

Is all this making you rethink The Church as your foundation?

 

[ron77nyc]

That’s what I was going to ask too, ron.

Is all this making you rethink The Church as your foundation?

Catholicism is the religion started by Jesus and I haven’t left the Church but I get angry when I read the bible and see that it strayed from the teachings of the apostles.

I’m rethinking it all but I still don’t trust the hierarchy. They still have that medieval mentality. They’re just more sophisticated now.

 

[SteveGC]

Catholicism is the religion started by Jesus and I haven’t left the Church but I get angry when I read the bible and see that it strayed from the teachings of the apostles.

I’m rethinking it all but I still don’t trust the hierarchy. They still have that medieval mentality. They’re just more sophisticated now.

Do you think it’s actually possible for Her to have strayed from apostolic teaching, ron? I mean, even if individuals diabolically wanted to stray Her off course, do you think it’s actually even possible to do, given the promise of Spiritual protection? If you think so, did you always think so? Would you have answered this question differently back at an earlier time in your life?

 

[ron77nyc]

Do you think it’s actually possible for Her to have strayed from apostolic teaching, ron? I mean, even if individuals diabolically wanted to stray Her off course, do you think it’s actually even possible to do, given the promise of Spiritual protection? If you think so, did you always think so? Would you have answered this question differently back at an earlier time in your life?

I just gave 2 examples of the Church straying from apostolic teaching. I gave more earlier in the thread about Paul’s teaching on the law.
At an earlier time in my life the Holy Spirirt was speaking to me very clearly and I didn’t know the bible but I sensed something was wrong with the Church. What was wrong are the examples I already mentioned. Jesus didn’t want people to learn a religious system. He wanted them to know Him.

 

[1beleevr]

Hey, SteveGC: Thanks for that enlightening response! And praise God that you have found your spot in the catholic church. As for myself, when reading your post, Phillipians 1:6 came to mind. Learning about who you are in Christ and d eepening your personal relationship with the same B-I-G God who spoke the universe into existence, is a lifelong journey; one which comes from fasting, praying, listening, and reading! Good points though; and being secure in my salvation and my final destination(Heaven) allow me to view Christian brothers and sisters with the love that God intended for me to share!!! God bless you.