The IRA were morally justified

[Bookcat]

Read St. Pope John Paul II on the matter…

 

[PassingSoul]

I am of the opinion and I do believe Church teaching agrees with me on this that attacking civilians is never Justified. I understand and sympathise greatly with Irish nationalism but the truth is the Irish Republican Army acted in a way that was not very Christ- like. I’m not .saying though that the Orange Order was any better

Also completely agree !

 

[pianistclare]

Also completely agree !

They’re both from the north. The orange order weren’t terrorists in the same league. but they were certainly anti-Catholic.

 

[Rosebud77]

Might be the murder of the ‘Real IRA’ commander Aidan O’Driscoll in Cork?

Speaking from Ireland here and there is a constant undercurrent of sectarian violence…Does not always hit international headlines… But it is there. Shootings and kneecapping.

Seething away…

 

[EamonnMichael]

I’m from the Rep. of Ireland.

The IRA during the “Troubles” were nothing short of terrorists. Granted, some may have been disillusioned or misguided but that sure as Hell doesn’t excuse people joining ISIS either. Some of the Unionists were equally as bad.

I’m sorry, but the IRA kidnapped innocent people and forced them to drive bomb loaded trucks into buildings. They murdered a mother of 8 kids, dragging her away in front of those kids, because she helped a dying soldier who was shot at her front door. Did they ever find Jean’s body? The IRA put bodies into slurry machines so that they would be ground up and spread across fields. They crucified people. They robbed banks, they were drug dealers and arms dealers. They told the police that the Omagh bombing would occur in the wrong location so that all of the people were herded into the location of the actual bomb and the maximum number of innocents were killed.

Anyone who was able to justify being part of that organisation was not right in the head. I abhor the IRA with every fibre of my being.

You’re a disgrace, and in my view being either selective or thoroughly dishonest.

Whilst never condoning killing, you ought to remember the reason ordinary people had to act. To stop their wives, sisters and neighbours being raped and pillaged. To stop their houses being burned and their people persecuted.

You also ought to remember that it divided the Church. The hierarchy took the side of the British whilst the priests on the ground either counselled volunteers or were themselves our themselves trying to promote peace. They never labelled Irish men and women “terrorists”. Not when British soldiers were shooting civilians in the back in Derry and the like.

You wouldn’t be living in a Republic of a Ireland without the “terrorists” you speak of.

 

[Qoeleth]

I’ve done extensive research on terrorism and terrorists as it used to be part of my job, I can say that the only two terrorist groups I’ve felt any compassion for are the IRA and Hezbollah. Both seemed to be forced into a situation where they either had to sit and take it, or take extreme action. Neither choice is a good one and I’m certainly glad I was never in their shoes.

Yes- but Hezbollah were not a terrorist group, were they? I always though they were the legitimate, moderate government of the State of Palestine, trying to defend the good folk of Palestine (Christians and Muslims alike).

 

[Kaninchen]

Speaking from Ireland here and there is a constant undercurrent of sectarian violence…Does not always hit international headlines… But it is there. Shootings and kneecapping.

Seething away…

Where does the patriot/general-purpose gangster line lie nowadays though?

 

[USMC_Convert]

Yes- but Hezbollah were not a terrorist group, were they? I always though they were the legitimate, moderate government of the State of Palestine, trying to defend the good folk of Palestine (Christians and Muslims alike).

Nope, Hezbollah is and has been since the 1970/1980s a terrorist organization. The fact that in the past decade they have managed to get into legitimate political offices of power in Lebanon does not change the fact that they are terrorists. Furthermore I’ve never heard of a single instance (after the 1980s) when Hezbollah has defended a Christian, in fact quite the opposite, they have persecuted us, not as much as they have gone after the Israelis, they have a true hatred for Israel, but they still think of Christians and Jews as the enemy.

Were they given an impossible situation by the Israeli’s, yes. Did they defend their homes and the people of Lebanon, yes. Did they turn into an ultra state sponsored terrorist organization who has committed horrible acts, yes.

In fact the similarities between the IRA and Hezbollah are astounding, one just happens to be Catholic and the other Muslim. I know there are many differences other than religion but when put side by side they are more alike than different.

 

[Inisfallen]

With Britain refusing to grant the people in the North of Ireland a vote for re-unification with the south and Republican armed groups re-arming it seems like violence from the last 800 years in the country could easily reemerge. I have created this thread to explain to many that do not understand the conflict in Ireland how Irish rebels are justified in resisting British rule. First it must be understood in 1919 in then general election the vast majority of this country voted for Sinn Fein, a political party that promised an independent Ireland if elected. Britain seen this once again in Ireland as an act of defiance and in their typical barbaric ways tried to scare, intimate and murder as a means to keep the populous down, Irish being quite a fiery people, this did not work so well as all Britain’s action done was harden the resistance against them and give the IRA all the tools and support it needed to push Britain out.

In the North primarily in four counties the majority of the population there were loyal to Britain and were brought up in a closed environment suspicious of anything Catholic, they were frightened if they lost their privilege of being the ruling class in Ireland that Catholics would treat them the same way they treated the natives, with severe brutality. They organised into a large organisation in which they threatened to attack not only Irish republicans but British forces if Ireland was given independence. Poor Britain getting battered daily by Irish soldiers and threatened by their own loyalists were in a tricky situation, they came up with a compromise that would allow most of Ireland it’s independence but 6 counties were to remain not just under British rule but under their loyalists rule. What then followed is a bitter civil war of brother killing brother, cousin killing cousin etc as Republicans and the IRA refused to accept this deal as it meant not only would the north remain under occupation but the institutions ruling it would persecute Catholics.

So as the years followed and the persecutions of Nationalists followed the people stood up and were sick of the unjust aggression and organised civil rights marches. The marchers were attacked by police and loyalists mobs and loyalists fearing that Nationalists were arising once more decided to organize once more into terror gangs and burn out Nationalists in the thousands in an attempt to force them out of the occupied 6 counties and into the south, helping these loyalists mobs was the British police force who were also joint members of these loyalist gangs. The IRA arose once more but this time to defend Nationalists communities, street gun battles would be a regular occurrence as loyalists attempted to push nationalists out of their homes and shortly after the British army was called in to ease tensions. At first British forces who were meant to bring peace were welcomed by nationalists but shortly after arriving not only did they stand back and allow loyalist mobs to continue with their attacks but they aided them by also attacking the Nationalists communities attempting to disarm and kill IRA volunteers by raiding homes and terrorizing the local populace once more. They introduced internment and over these several years jailed nearly 2000 innocent people whom they suspected of IRA involvement without trial. Britain once again was behaving like it’s usual barbaric self and the IRA gaining large scale support and finance decided that it needed to end the war by moving from defending Nationalist areas to launching a offensive campaign to remove British forces. Over the next 30 years there was a large scale conflict between Irish and British forces. The IRA were heavily vilified in by BRITISH media for their attacks against Britain, the British were heavily vilified by the entire world including many of their own people for continuing the occupation and conflict of Ireland for imperialist means. The result of the British occupation of Ireland was the deaths and persecution of millions of people, the result of the IRA and independence was the establishment of a New nation free from tyranny in which it’s people could thrive. There can NEVER be justification for imperialism in this day and age and Ireland must be reunited for peace to flourish.

I will add however that while many IRA attacks were unjust the VAST majority of it’s attacks were against British security forces however British forces killed more innocent civilians than IRA volunteers

You’ve made this argument here before, about a year and a half ago. Aside from the outright distortions of fact in this post, the issue remains that while the goals of the Provisional IRA may or may not have been just, their tactics were not. At all. A case cannot be made that the bombing of a department store, for instance, is a legitimate response to the denial of political freedom.

My response to you from back in June of last year still stands:

You seem to be making a couple of arguments here. One appears to be that killing people, non-combatants, bystanders, children, is perfectly morally acceptable if one’s cause is just. This is pretty much the argument universally made by terrorists. The Provisional IRA is in line here with Boko Haram and ISIS and Al Qaeda and, oh, the Bader-Meinhoff Gang and the Symbionese Liberation Army and any other politically-motivated gang of murderers you can think of.

The other seems to be that because (in your opinion) the United States engages in bad behavior on a global level, whatever the IRA (or, by extension, Boko Haram or Al Shabaab and the rest) do is OK. That argument doesn’t even begin to make sense.

 

[Paddy1989]

I’m from the Rep. of Ireland.

The IRA during the “Troubles” were nothing short of terrorists. Granted, some may have been disillusioned or misguided but that sure as Hell doesn’t excuse people joining ISIS either. Some of the Unionists were equally as bad.

I’m sorry, but the IRA kidnapped innocent people and forced them to drive bomb loaded trucks into buildings. They murdered a mother of 8 kids, dragging her away in front of those kids, because she helped a dying soldier who was shot at her front door. Did they ever find Jean’s body? The IRA put bodies into slurry machines so that they would be ground up and spread across fields. They crucified people. They robbed banks, they were drug dealers and arms dealers. They told the police that the Omagh bombing would occur in the wrong location so that all of the people were herded into the location of the actual bomb and the maximum number of innocents were killed.

Anyone who was able to justify being part of that organisation was not right in the head. I abhor the IRA with every fibre of my being.

You are from a republic that was founded because of the IRA and yet you slander insults at our Brave patriots that are mostly lies, are you a British expat living in Ireland. You defend the very nation that tried to exterminate us and annihilate Catholicism in Ireland. How cowardly. The IRA never kidnapped innocent people and forced them to drive bombs, they did force British collaborators in a few operations which i feel is a bit extreme, they never killed Jean just because she helped a British solider, she was warned many times by the IRA to stop giving British intelligence information and given more warnings than many others. It was still wrong to carried out what they did but this was in a intense war where volunteers lives were being lost because of information being given to British intelligence. She continued for financial reasons. They crucified noone, The Omagh bomb was carried out by the RIRA who had carried out a number of economic bombs before that with NO innocent casualties as they give warnings before hand, the warning given to the Omagh bomb was correct however shortly after British intelligence said they got another warning giving a different location so all the innocent people were lured towards the bomb. This is the reason that in court the case collapsed several times, British intelligence kept giving contradictory evidence. British intelligence was known to have carried out many false flag attacks and many of the loyalist gangs they collaborated with even bragged about this. How they would kill innocents and blame the IRA to hit the large scale support they had. What is your agenda and why lie? What did the Irish defense force do when the nationalist people cried out for help as they were being driven from their homes, they did nothing because they are cowards. Ireland doesn’t need more cowards as it only prolongs the division and conflict. It needs Patriots to defend the Nation and end the conflict once and for all.

The IRA had to contend with a police force that also had memberships in loyalist gangs and giving them information to assassinate innocent Catholics, British army undercover assassin units that killed any suspected IRA, most of the people they killed were innocent people who were only sympathizers with the republican cause. How do you think the IRA went from a few dozen members in the late 60’s to having tens of thousands a few years later?? You think people wanted war, to be locked up for the rest of their lives for fighting for freeing their country from a foreign invader. There were hundreds of thousands of IRA attacks between 1969 and 2000. Most of which consisted of gun attacks, sniper attacks, ambushes etc, attacks that were legitimate and solely cost the lives of it’s volunteers or British forces. Then there was the bombing campaign carried out by separate units that were solely economical, warnings were given and most of these bombs went off without anyone killed. Some unfortunately did kill but that wasn’t the aim. There were a few active cell units in England that purposely killed innocents with small bombs but these attacks shocked even the leadership and we primarily independent. You can not base the IRA off these few atrocious attacks just like we can’t base the British army off the innumerable attacks killing innocents in Ireland over 800 years which was done far more regularly than the IRA bombing innocents or we can’t brush the US army for it’s crimes in Vietnam

If not for the IRA British terrorism would still engulf Ireland and we would still have the entire Island occupied, never forget the sacrifice our patriots made

 

[Paddy1989]

This is true; they killed more of their “own” than anything else.

How many innocent did the UK and US killed in WW2 compared to German soldiers, i can tell you they killed far more in their cowardly carpet bombings of German cities and you think the US being the only nation of earth to use the atom bomb to kill ONLY innocent people will be forgiven??? The IRA killed more British security forces, FACT. The British killed more civilians than IRA volunteers many of whom were merely kids with plastic bullets at point blank range. I can safely say that the IRA is more more inline with just war theory bar a few attacks that the cowardly UK and US army

 

[Paddy1989]

Ah, sorry, but it was even illegal to interview Sinn Fein on IRISH TV until the 90s or something, IIRC. The IRA were villified because they were villians, just like ISIS.

lol ISIS are exclusively a religious group that aim to spread a Islamic caliphate across the world conquering others. The IRA came about AFTER the people democratically elected for independence in 1919 which Britain DENIED, there is no comparison. Also they were wrong to do that to Sinn fein and admitted this and with Sinn fein being the largest political party by FAR on the island of Ireland understand who people give most of their support to, as it’s not to your British terrorists

 

[Paddy1989]

You’re a disgrace, and in my view being either selective or thoroughly dishonest.

Whilst never condoning killing, you ought to remember the reason ordinary people had to act. To stop their wives, sisters and neighbours being raped and pillaged. To stop their houses being burned and their people persecuted.

You also ought to remember that it divided the Church. The hierarchy took the side of the British whilst the priests on the ground either counselled volunteers or were themselves our themselves trying to promote peace. They never labelled Irish men and women “terrorists”. Not when British soldiers were shooting civilians in the back in Derry and the like.

You wouldn’t be living in a Republic of a Ireland without the “terrorists” you speak of.

Exactly correct and lets not forget that many priests were also IRA volunteers. To defend Britain in Ireland and vilify Irish patriots fighting against them goes against the desires of the majority of the Irish people, i don’t understand why many on this board are supporting an anti Catholic tyrannical regime that used to exist in Ireland??? Is this a Catholic forum where people are meant to embrace justice and liberty?

 

[Paddy1989]

One thing that people on this forum need to understand. Ireland flourished before Britain arrived here, soon after they arrived they ravaged this nation and poverty gripped everywhere and our language, faith and culture was made illegal to practice. When we refused to accept the new protestant faith Britain attempted to exterminate large portions of the local Irish and repopulate it with thier own colonists giving them all the land which ultimately ended in failure and most of their colonists being killed. With our resistance and resilience we never give up realizing wars are won by those who can endure the most and for our land, people and faith we would endure ANYTHING. With the emergence of the IRA in the independence war of 1919-1921 after the people democratically voted for independence which was rejected by Britain the IRA engaged in a intense guerrilla war, gun attacks, ambushes, bombings, political assassination were rife until Britain gave in, what followed in the free 26 counties was the first era of true peace and to flourish as an independent nation free from tyranny.

The 6 counties in the North was still occupied and a tyrannical regime still ruled here. Democracy was not practiced properly there so to keep unionists in power of areas where Nationalists were the majority. The IRA engaged again in a guerilla war using the same tactics to free the 6 counties hoping that once Britain is removed from Ireland and the country is reunited that the division would soon disintegrate as the institutions that allowed it to exist would be gone. The IRA were not successful in their liberation of the 6 counties but through the sacrifice of our brave volunteers the corrupt tyrannical regime was smashed and the corrupt institutions of the security forces dissolved to give way to a new police force. Now there is powersharing in the north and all recent surveys since Brexit show a majority in the North favour a united Ireland and want to vote on it. Britain however has recently said they will not allow a vote for a united Ireland in light of Brexit and Republican groups once again are re-arming. Make of this what you will

 

[USMC_Convert]

How many innocent did the UK and US killed in WW2 compared to German soldiers, i can tell you they killed far more in their cowardly carpet bombings of German cities and you think the US being the only nation of earth to use the atom bomb to kill ONLY innocent people will be forgiven??? The IRA killed more British security forces, FACT. The British killed more civilians than IRA volunteers many of whom were merely kids with plastic bullets at point blank range. I can safely say that the IRA is more more inline with just war theory bar a few attacks that the cowardly UK and US army

You have obviously never been in a war, and have no clue why we use the tactics we use, there’s no point in this post because it’s obviously not a debate. No matter what, you believe everyone that doesn’t agree 100% with you is your enemy.

I’m done with you and this argument and your “cowardly” comment shows me your true colors. Peace be with you, though I seriously doubt you will find it, I pray you eventually do…

 

[Paddy1989]

Tomdstone;14332656**:

The same in the US. Some Americans will say it was morally wrong to tyrannize the American indian and slaughter millions of American Indians in a horrific holocaust, but they will say that it would be equally wrong for the American Indian to wage war on the USA and attempt to win back its territory

. Similarly with Greece and Cypress. Similarly with Bulgaria and Macedonia. Similarly with the US and Mexico with all those states that America annexed from Mexico. Where does it end?
Israel and Palestine both claim territory in the area.
Pakistan and India both claim Azad Kashmir, and Gilgit Baltistan.
Israel and Syria both claim the Golan Heights.
Russia and Japan both claim the South Kuril Islands
India and Bangladesh both claim Muhurichar river island.
China and Vietnam both claim the Paracel Islands.
Canada and Denmark both claim Hans Island.
the US and Haiti both claim Navassa Island.
Cuba demands that the US return Guantanamo.
To a large extent, I do sympathize with the position of the IRA. But once you start waging war because of these border disputes, who knows what unforeseen horrors may ensue?
What are you going to do with all the Protestants in Northern Ireland, once and if a reunification were to occur? They don’t like Catholics. They march brazenly through Catholic territories, taunting Catholics there and trying to pick a fight.

So by this logic that means to say that anyone who conquers whether they are right or wrong ultimately wins because resisting and fighting back is wrong? If Germany conquered Europe in ww2 would France, Britain or Poland be wrong to still fight back? Ireland is not some contested region, it is Ireland, a ancient nation with deep culture and history and influenced many lands and peoples in the world including your own in a HUGE way

As for what are we going to do with protestants? This isn’t redneck US or some ultra nationalist support area of England. Irish republicanism was founded by protestants, along with other senior republicans who were Catholics they called themselves the united Irelanders. They realized that both sides trying to exterminate each other was wrong and only through a Catholic and Protestant nation independent from Britain could peace prosper. The Irish tri-colour which was founded during this time represents both the Catholic and Protestant traditions with the white being peace between the two. Irish Republicanism is a inclusive ideology for both peoples. The reason why many protestants were against this was because they despised Catholics and Catholicism and wanted to remain as land owners and in the powerful positions they had, they didn’t want peace between both peoples but merely to annihilate Catholicism in Ireland and make it a loyal protestant Nation of Britain. Should Ireland be held hostage by such a people who want to remain dominant over their neighbor especially when their neighbor’s ideology includes both peoples?? Defending Britain in Ireland to me is the same as defending Nazism in Germany

Long story short, Irish patriots whether it be the IRB in the past of IRA are the ones who brought peace to this land and brought down tyranny, this is what they should ultimately be judged on, the end result

 

[Paddy1989]

You have obviously never been in a war, and have no clue why we use the tactics we use, there’s no point in this post because it’s obviously not a debate. No matter what, you believe everyone that doesn’t agree 100% with you is your enemy.

I’m done with you and this argument and your “cowardly” comment shows me your true colors. Peace be with you, though I seriously doubt you will find it, I pray you eventually do…

There is no justification for the carpet bombings of innocents. NONE. When you purposely kill innocents it is murder whether it is the US army, French army, Irish republican army, British army etc. You disagree with me and i do not believe you to be my enemy so don’t slander me in this way. You hold a view that is at odds with mine and the majority of the Irish people. Fair enough, thats your right.

 

[Paddy1989]

They’re both from the north.** The orange order weren’t terrorists in the same league**. but they were certainly anti-Catholic.

Loyalists killed more innocents than the IRA, nearly 900. Most casualties by the IRA were British security forces, legitimate targets. The loyalists were sadistic as almost all their targets were innocents in an attempt to discourage support for the IRA and spread fear amongst Catholics. They were armed and also had joint membership with the British army and British police (RUC)

 

[Inisfallen]

How many innocent did the UK and US killed in WW2 compared to German soldiers, i can tell you they killed far more in their cowardly carpet bombings of German cities and you think the US being the only nation of earth to use the atom bomb to kill ONLY innocent people will be forgiven??? The IRA killed more British security forces, FACT. The British killed more civilians than IRA volunteers many of whom were merely kids with plastic bullets at point blank range. I can safely say that the IRA is more more inline with just war theory bar a few attacks that the cowardly UK and US army

The wrongs of the United States in past wars, real or imagined, are completely irrelevant to the question of whether or not the actions of the IRA were morally justified.

Are you seriously maintaining that the dropping of a bomb in 1945 has any bearing on the morality of bombing a department store in 1983? That’s a tough case to make.

Finally, you seem to be conflating the IRA of the Easter Uprising with the Provisional IRA. The Provisional IRA is the organization whose acts you’re trying to justify. Not the same bunch as the Irish Republican Army of Michael Collins. Not at all.

 

[Inisfallen]

Long story short, Irish patriots whether it be the IRB in the past of IRA are the ones who brought peace to this land and brought down tyranny, this is what they should ultimately be judged on, the end result

This is absolutely inconsistent with everything we learn from our Church about what a “just war” is.

Our actions in war are not to be judged solely by whether or not our ends are achieved, or even whether or not our ends are just.