The Islamic belief that CHRISTIANS will burn in Hell

[Paris_Blues]

PMV:

This belief never really scared me, but it annoys and irritates me at times when I try to live my faith. Any advice on how to get this rediculous belief to stop bugging me?

I don’t blame ya! It’s irritating when you have all these “religions” out there claiming to be the “truth”. That’s why when I first started posting here at this forum back in December last year, I was to the point of frustration whether I should be Catholic or Protestant! I mean, how can you find the truth when all claim to be the “right” truth or whatever??? It’s a pain in the rear end so I did the best I could to discern what was the “TRUTH” regarding Christianity…there’s something about Catholicism that strikes me so I found a parish near my apartment and started attending RCIA. I, myself, truly believe that Catholicism is THE way, the truth and the life!

 

[catholica]

Maybe Moslems should know their Quran better:

Al-Baqra 2:62
“Those who belive (in the Quran) and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians, any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; and on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve”

…and there’s more…search “Christians” under Topic Search at
islamicity.com/QuranSearch/

 

[Tmaque]

Malgosia:

Koran itself gives them guidance. It says: “If We (meaning Allah) abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten, we bring a better one or a similar to it. Don’t you know that nothing is impossible to Allah?” (Sura 2:102)

The principle that Allah led Muhammad in progressive revelation, and the newer verses override the older ones is called “nasikh”.

Is it just me or does this sound like LDS philosophy? I knew there were many parallels between Islam and Mormonism but this is one that I had never heard of. What a clever ploy of the Devil. Create new religions that trick people into thinking they are serving God when in reality they are condemning themselves and also drawing people away from the true faith.

 

[stanley123]

You say:

Darrel:

…the orders to war by God are holy.

From the standpoint of Islam, why would it be unreasonable for a Muslim to disagree with what you have written:

Darrel:

They embrace the spirit of murder in Gods name which creates a ton of brutality and ignorance. .

 

[Darrel]

stanley123:

You say:

From the standpoint of Islam, why would it be unreasonable for a Muslim to disagree with what you have written:

stanley123,

They would not find it remotely reasonable. When it comes to taking sides with Gods truth I simply take sides. I believe that Jesus is the son of God in the Holy Trinity. I also believe that the old covenant with the Jews is still in effect. I don’t mean to sound pompous but I seriously don’t care who finds it reasonable.

Another variable not mentioned is the fact that the Jews are not doing this sort of thing now. In ancient times war was brutal and punishments for things like adultery were brutal. The world changed, this change also includes the Catholic Church. The church is not entering into open warfare like it used to.

These Moslems know that the rest of the world does not engage in this sort of insane brutality. Yet they choose to do so in the name of God. There are a bunch of oil rich Islamic countries that could embrace education tolerance and mercy that are choosing to embrace evil in Gods name while the rest of the world looks on in horror.

Does your question operate under the assumption that we need to explain away what God told the Jews to do? I dont think that is required of me, I simply trust that God did not sin because it is impossible.

I would also ask you. Do you feel that Islam is a holy religion when it seeks world conquest and states that Christ is not God in the Holy Trinity and promotes Jihad?

From the standpoint of Christianity can you explain why a Christian should not find that unreasonable?

-D

 

[stanley123]

Darrel:

Do you feel that Islam is a holy religion when it seeks world conquest and states that Christ is not God in the Holy Trinity and promotes Jihad?

Hi Darrel:
Interesting question.
Quite truthfully, I am not sure about Islam. I know that the Vicar of Christ, His Holiness Pope John Paul II has kissed the Koran and I think that some nice things have been said about Islam. I did read in the newspapers that Cardinal Law had been bowing down and praying in an Islaminc mosque, in the manner of the muslim custom. Also, I have heard of some attempts to ease tensions between Catholics and Islamic groups. Generally, I am in favor of easing tensions between different religions, and I support any and all efforts His Holiness, Pope John Paul II has made to promote goodwill and harmony in the world today.
On the one hand, it does look to me like barbaric, horrific attacks are being waged against innocent Christian and Jewish civilians. I am appalled by the savagery of these attacks and hope that they will stop. On the other hand there is the war in Iraq. I think that the Vatican had expressed its opposition to the war, and I have read about the terrible horrors of war, which in some cases are being inflicted on innocent bystanders.
I am a Catholic for peace, harmony, goodwill and ecumenical friendship which in the spirit of Vatican II, will lead to productive and fruitful cooperation, mutual collaboration and understanding between people of different religions.

 

[Darrel]

stanley123:

Hi Darrel:
Interesting question.
Quite truthfully, I am not sure about Islam. I know that the Vicar of Christ, His Holiness Pope John Paul II has kissed the Koran and I think that some nice things have been said about Islam. I did read in the newspapers that Cardinal Law had been bowing down and praying in an Islaminc mosque, in the manner of the muslim custom. Also, I have heard of some attempts to ease tensions between Catholics and Islamic groups. Generally, I am in favor of easing tensions between different religions, and I support any and all efforts His Holiness, Pope John Paul II has made to promote goodwill and harmony in the world today.
On the one hand, it does look to me like barbaric, horrific attacks are being waged against innocent Christian and Jewish civilians. I am appalled by the savagery of these attacks and hope that they will stop. On the other hand there is the war in Iraq. I think that the Vatican had expressed its opposition to the war, and I have read about the terrible horrors of war, which in some cases are being inflicted on innocent bystanders.
I am a Catholic for peace, harmony, goodwill and ecumenical friendship which in the spirit of Vatican II, will lead to productive and fruitful cooperation, mutual collaboration and understanding between people of different religions.

This issue is something I have wrestled with for some time. I feel that vocation comes into play at the end of the day. If the Pope embraces the Quran with a kiss or a Cardinal prays in a mosque they are correct.

I feel that as leaders in the Church they are in a position to bolster hatred between Moslems and Christians if there politics are as open as my words here with regards to Muhammad being a false prophet or Islam being a false religion.

If I were in a high position of political power in the Church my words here ‘might’ be much more reserved and liberal.

In my case I’m called to the vocation of marriage. My words are not going to cause WW3 or a Jihad to be started against Christianity. If the Pope says that Islam is “distant” from Christianity he is being loving polite and tactful towards the nation of Islam. He never said Muhammad was a prophet of God or that Islam is correct in actions or teachings. My words are blatant and open and I think it’s important that Christians feel its ok to say Islam is wrong in its actions, teachings, and brutality.

We must love our enemies but that doesn’t mean we should call there actions correct or line up to be slaughtered. If they are not of God while killing in his name then they should look in the mirror when they use the term “the great Satan”.

-D

 

[stanley123]

Darrel:

. If they are not of God while killing in his name then they should look in the mirror when they use the term “the great Satan”.

Hello Darrel:
The question in my mind is what is meant by “they”. Do you know many muslims? The ones that I know are quite peaceful and honorable people. The are quite respectful to me, more so I would say than they average American. According to what these people say, the “they” that you are referring to are not truly representative of Islam. On the other hand, my muslim friends are quite strongly opposed to certain features in the American culture such as pornography, rock music, violence, and materialism. I don’t think that you are going to find an Islamic clergyman writing pornography, contrary to what we have in American Catholicism with a Catholic priest by the name of Father Greeley. And I don;t think that you are going to find the play called the V_monologues, being shown in Saudi Arabia, as it was shown at many Catholic colleges here in the USA. For example, a while back, at Holy Cross college, in Worcester, Massachusetts, Ash Wednesday was celebrated by showing this play, according to which a younger girl attains her personal salvation by being introduced to lewd lesbian activities by an older lady.
I can see why a person in Saudi Arabia might have questions about such things.

 

[Darrel]

The question in my mind is what is meant by “they”. Do you know many Muslims?

I have known a few and they were not very devout.

The ones that I know are quite peaceful and honorable people. The are quite respectful to me, more so I would say than they average American.

I would tend to agree, but we are not talking about America. I am speaking in regards to the Middle East. Would you be treated this way in Iran?

According to what these people say, the “they” that you are referring to are not truly representative of Islam.

Is this the same Islam that says Jesus is not the son of God and has it’s bible centered in Jihad?

On the other hand, my muslim friends are quite strongly opposed to certain features in the American culture such as pornography, rock music, violence, and materialism. I don’t think that you are going to find an Islamic clergyman writing pornography, contrary to what we have in American Catholicism with a Catholic priest by the name of Father Greeley. And I don;t think that you are going to find the play called the V_monologues, being shown in

Saudi Arabia, as it was shown at many Catholic colleges here in the USA.

I don’t think the nation of Islam will embrace theology of the body or teach that women should not be lashed for adultery. What do your friends say about public executions in Iran? Do they share the idea of right to life? Do they say that anti-Semitism is wrong?
For example, a while back, at Holy Cross college, in Worcester, Massachusetts, Ash Wednesday was celebrated by showing this play, according to which a younger girl attains her personal salvation by being introduced to lewd lesbian activities by an older lady.

I can see why a person in Saudi Arabia might have questions about such things.

I’m not familiar with the college or the play. People in Saudi Arabia would be totally offended I’m sure. My question is why does it matter, it sounds like a problem in the Catholic Church to me. Perhaps you should write a letter to the one true Church of Christ’s leadership. The “they” I speak of are Islamic countries that have Islamic leaders in positions of power. I do not disput the fact that Islamic people in the United States will treat people with repspect. They have no choice, it’s not like they can change us over to an Iranian legal system and I figure they would not want to since we all like freedom.

-D

 

[Malgosia]

stanley123:

Hello Darrel:
The question in my mind is what is meant by “they”. Do you know many muslims? The ones that I know are quite peaceful and honorable people.

If you are trying to discern Islam, you do not look at Muslims, for some of them are Muslims by name only, and some follow the “Christianized” version of Islam, which is not the real religion of Muhammad.

According to Koran the world is divided into 2 houses: “House of Islam” (where all Muslims belong), and “House of War” (pagans, Christians, Jews, and all other religions).

Anyone in the “House of War” is a fair target for conversion, and if resisted, death.

Therefore, Muslims you know might be wonderful people, but if they are devout, and they were to chose between your friendship and Islam, their religion would win every time.

 

[Ahimsa]

Malgosia:

Therefore, Muslims you know might be wonderful people, but if they are devout, and they were to chose between your friendship and Islam, their religion would win every time.

Isn’t this true of “devout” Christians, as well?

 

[stanley123]

Darrel:

My question is why does it matter, it sounds like a problem in the Catholic Church to me.

I thought that you had brought up the question as to why a Muslim might characterise western culture as the great sata. I’m giving you examples from American Catholic culture which might provoke such a response from someone living in an Islamic culture:

1. A CAtholic priest, Father Andrew Greeley, writing pornography and using the most filthy, vile and blasphemous language imaginable in his novels. And the Catholic Cardinal George making statements giving his full approval to such an enterprise.
2. The showing of a lewd play called the V_monologues at Catholic colleges.
3. As far as American nonCatholic culture goes, the legalisation of marriage for homosexuals.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

PMV:

This belief never really scared me, but it annoys and irritates me at times when I try to live my faith. Any advice on how to get this rediculous belief to stop bugging me?
Also, what is the TRUE Islamic view of salvation for good Jews and Christians who belief in Judgement Day and all? The Koran seems to contradict itself concerning the Jews and Christians, speaking good of them in some verses and showing a negative view of them in others. I know that there are Islamic fundamentalists, just as there are Christian fundamentalists that claim all non-followers of their religion are damned. But are there Muslims who are not fundamentalists (like Catholics who aren’t Protestants) that do NOT teach that all Non-Muslims will be damned, like Catholicism teaches that not ALL non-Christians will be damned?

How is this different from Catholics insisting that all Protestants are damned ?​

In one single respect: a different group is doing the damning, so the damning is of Catholics, rather than by them.

So now Catholics know how Protestants must at times feel. If Catholics are sure they are right - so are Muslims. Their rightness “just happens” to have a different intellectual content from Catholic rightness. ##

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Ahimsa:

Isn’t this true of “devout” Christians, as well?

Yes, but Christians see only the faults of others - so Christian bigotry is, of course, never bigotry, but “holy zeal for truth”: bigotry is the other fellow’s game. The *other *fellow’s “holy zeal for truth” is “obscurantist ranting” - unless one is a follower of the other fellow. ​

So the other fellow’s doctrine is always false, even if it is indistinguishable from that which one holds oneself. So if a Protestant is strongly “pro-life”, his “pro-life” zeal will be overshadowed by the ruinous fact that he believes in the inerrancy of the Bible but not of the Pope or the Church. And “pro-life” Protestants ignore Catholic opposition to abortion and highlight Catholic horrors like prayer to the Saints. The immense areas of agreement are simply ignored - just as the areas of agreement between Yugoslav and Soviet Communism were ignored because other things were deemed to be more important and so wewre absolutised.
It would be very easy for a Martian to suppose that opposition to abortion was the cardinal dogma of RCism - whereas it is important only because it is a conclusion from far more central & important things, such as the creation, & and the Incarnation.

Soviet Communism’s idea of the state, the Protestant Fundamentalist idea of the Bible, and the Catholic notion of the Church, are strikingly similar in some ways. They can all function as means of ignoring, excluding, or air-brushing from history “the other fellow”, unless he agrees with one in all respects.

The amusing thing is, that to a third party, Stalin and Trotsky, Ian Paisley & the Pope, Hans Kung and “Pius XIII”, can seem equally absurd or ghastly. So for quite a lot of people there is no difference worth mentioning between JP2 and Usama bin Laden; they can both be shrugged off as destructive reactionaries.

Christians are terribly dysfunctional people at times :banghead: ##

 

[Darrel]

stanley123:

I thought that you had brought up the question as to why a Muslim might characterise western culture as the great sata. I’m giving you examples from American Catholic culture which might provoke such a response from someone living in an Islamic culture:

1. A CAtholic priest, Father Andrew Greeley, writing pornography and using the most filthy, vile and blasphemous language imaginable in his novels. And the Catholic Cardinal George making statements giving his full approval to such an enterprise.
2. The showing of a lewd play called the V_monologues at Catholic colleges.
3. As far as American nonCatholic culture goes, the legalisation of marriage for homosexuals.

Very true,

And when they are done being offended they can go to a nice public stoning or hanging from a large crane and declare another Jihad against the world.

The United States has a multitude of problems along with the Church. They are both huge establishments with millions of people so there will always be problems.

Free will under the US constitution is the reason people here are free to sin. In the Catholic Church people can choose to sin or choose to abandon there faith. The Church won’t kill them for this, they will let the Lord be there judge. People in Israel can choose to sin and not be killed. People in Iran and other Muslim countries kill for sins and encourage it along with encouraging the spread of there religion across the Earth with murder used as an acceptable means in evangelism. That is the difference. We choose to allow people a choice to come to God and to stay with him just as God does. They will force you to God and kill you if you say no. That is evil. The US may have things like abortion and execution going on which are evil for certain. But this is not being done in the name of God. It is all being done in the name of the United States Constitution while Christians are free to protest it with freedom. God gives us free will, why don’t they?

-D

 

[alfredo]

According to Pope John Paul II:

“It is important that Muslims and Christians continue to explore philosophical and theological questions together, in order to come to a more objective and comprehensive knowledge of each other’s religious beliefs. Better mutual understanding will surely lead, at the practical level, to a new way of presenting our two religions not in opposition, as has happened too often in the past, but in partnership for the good of the human family.”

 

[4_marks]

The general rule of thumb is that after Islam has been shared with them, and they continue to persist as Christians, then, yes, they will go to hell. Islam does allow for Christians and others to be converted by force, and thus brought into the fold, and this has been the preferred method of Islamic prosletyzing over the years. They acknowledge that there are a great many so-called Christians who may at first resist, but will buckle under enough pressure. One of the signs that a person has truly converted to Islam is that he or she will never buckle under pressure. Dying for the cause of Islam, even if it is self-induced dying such as homicide bombing, is considered to be most noble for many non-Westernized Moslems.

If I were to adhere the beliefs of my parish pastor, he would say that all people are good, and as they do good, and avoid evil (which is defined as oppressing the poor, voting for candidates who support capital punishment or the War in Iraq, getting involved in societal controversies such as the Schiavo case, failing to reach out in love and acceptance to homosexual clergy who have been removed from the parish), and are sincere in your fill in the blank beliefs, you will be saved.

Call me crazy but I believe that salvation is reserved only for those who die in a state of sanctifying grace.

 

[steve_b]

stanley123:

Can Islam be all that bad if the Pope is seen kissing the Koran?
deceptioninthechurch.com/popekiss.html

I think it has more to do with JPII showing respect for all people. Nothing more.

If you search the quran, “Isa” is the name for Jesus. Some translations of the quran use the name Jesus . Here are all the passages where Isa/Jesus appears in the quran.

002.087 002.136 002.253 003.045 003.052 003.055 003.059 003.084 004.157 004.159 004.163 004.171 005.046 005.078 005.110 005.112 005.114 005.116 006.085 019.034 033.007 042.013 043.063 057.027 061.006 061.014

notice 004.159

We can’t ignore the fact that Islam expands by fear and intimidation. When they are the minority in a country, they are conciliatory. When they gain the majority, they are intolorant, brutal, and dictatorial to all who aren’t muslims…

 

[steve_b]

PMV:

This belief never really scared me, but it annoys and irritates me at times when I try to live my faith. Any advice on how to get this rediculous belief to stop bugging me?

Don’t worry about it. Did mohammed die for the world? Did he rise from the dead? His body is still here on this planet. Anything that says otherwise is pure fantasy.

PMV:

Also, what is the TRUE Islamic view of salvation for good Jews and Christians who belief in Judgement Day and all?

Here is how “Isa” the name for Jesus in the quran is portrayed

002.087 002.136 002.253 003.045 003.052 003.055 003.059 003.084 004.157 004.159 004.163 004.171 005.046 005.078 005.110 005.112 005.114 005.116 006.085 019.034 033.007 042.013 043.063 057.027 061.006 061.014

notice 004.159

PMV:

The Koran seems to contradict itself concerning the Jews and Christians, speaking good of them in some verses and showing a negative view of them in others.

Consider the source of their book.

PMV:

I know that there are Islamic fundamentalists, just as there are Christian fundamentalists that claim all non-followers of their religion are damned. But are there Muslims who are not fundamentalists (like Catholics who aren’t Protestants) that do NOT teach that all Non-Muslims will be damned, like Catholicism teaches that not ALL non-Christians will be damned?

Jesus told us how it will be. No one, and that means NO ONE, comes to the Father except through Jesus. If a muslim makes it to heaven, it won’t be by mohammed but by Jesus. If one denies Jesus to the end, they will not enter heaven.

 

[Giovanni]

Here is the deal, the prophet of Islam is a false prophet.

Doesn’t matter what the Koran says, it is all a lie.

Why would the Father send Gabriel to Mary announcing to her that she would be the mother of the Son of God, the Messiah, and a little over five hundred some years later tell the so called prophet that Jesus is not who He is, God among us.
Remember who satan is, a liar and the father of lies.

Under the same breath however, God will judge the human heart accordingly, and He will decide whether any man other than Christians will go to Heaven.

Praised be God Forever