The Islamic belief that CHRISTIANS will burn in Hell

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No, the Quran doesnt teach that at all. They teach that Christian,Jews and Muslims will all be judges by their individual prophets, and on the day of judgement, each prophet from theie religion will stand before Allah, with those who follewd him, and judge whether each beleiver has tried to live by the teachings of that prophet.

The second coming is preached by Islam , and Jesus will return, destroy the Dajjal(anti-christ), and then his justice wll be established throught the entire earth. He wil not reign for 1000 years but for 40 years, the remainder of a natural life, and die at the age of 70. The place that he will battle the Dajjal will fo courese be the Middle East, but the war of the Dajjal will start whent the Dajjal attacks the nation of Iraq in order to possess some sort of treasure that will found beneith the Euprates River.
Oddly enough, in one of the descriptions of the Dajjal, it is stated that he will have hair resembling a bush (Islamic Fundamentalists are making a big deal over that. I guess interpretation of eschatological literature can be a dangerous thing)
 
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nevancik:
No, the Quran doesnt teach that at all. They teach that Christian,Jews and Muslims will all be judges by their individual prophets, and on the day of judgement, each prophet from theie religion will stand before Allah, with those who follewd him, and judge whether each beleiver has tried to live by the teachings of that prophet.

The second coming is preached by Islam , and Jesus will return, destroy the Dajjal(anti-christ), and then his justice wll be established throught the entire earth. He wil not reign for 1000 years but for 40 years, the remainder of a natural life, and die at the age of 70. The place that he will battle the Dajjal will fo courese be the Middle East, but the war of the Dajjal will start whent the Dajjal attacks the nation of Iraq in order to possess some sort of treasure that will found beneith the Euprates River.
Oddly enough, in one of the descriptions of the Dajjal, it is stated that he will have hair resembling a bush (Islamic Fundamentalists are making a big deal over that. I guess interpretation of eschatological literature can be a dangerous thing)
If all three prophets are legit until the Day of Judgment then why murder anyone for evangelizations sake? Why do they have such a problem with the Jews? The more I see of Islam the more I see huge contradictions laid out by this false prophet.

It all comes down to the same truth. The tree is known by it’s fruit.

The teachings of Christ are perfect and the teachings of Muhammed are the opposite. They bring about all sorts of insane acts in Gods name. I acknowledge that there are some (nice) people in American Islam but the religion on it’s own in the world is a savage monster right out of the pit. Why would one prophet teach love thy enemy and the next prophet of the same God say kill them all?

-D
 
Well, historically, Christians have killed far more people in the effort to spread Christianity than Muslims have. The Christian Crusaders killed many, many Muslims, and even Eastern Orthodox residents of the areas they travelled through on their way to the Holy Land during the Crusades. During the THird Crusaded, they did nothing but slaughter Christians in Constantinople. The Spanish killed and enslaved lots of Native American in the conquest of the New World and other Colonial areas.

ON the other hand, the spread of Islam was relatively bloodless by comparison, Muslim soldiers were under orders to kill no one but soldiers. Non-Combatants were protected Homes were not to be destroyed, crops for those living in thesareas conquered were to be spared. Priest, monks and other holy men were to be treated with respect, as were the places of worship. And largely they were. Rather than kill Christians and Jews, they were allowed to keep their faiths and conversion was not forced under pain of death. Compare that to the way most of Europe and Russia was converted.One king decided to convert, and all of his subjects were converted in a mass baptism, of be killed.

Undervthe Islamic Caliphate Christians and Jews were considered separate nations. Only Muslims were subject to Muslim laws. The Christian and Jewish nations were allowed to elect thie own leadership councils who would administer the laws of both faiths. While non muslims were charged a tax for the priviledge of keeping thie religion, they were not forced or even allowed to serve in the military. The tax was used in part to assist in the upkeep of religious places of worship, and adminstered by the respective councils. The rest was used for other public works in Christian and Jewish areas, as well as protection from attack by large bands of thiefs and despoilers.
In fact, after a while conversion toIslam by Christian and Jews was discouraged, as they were a large source of the Caliphates tax revenues.Killing Christians nad Jews would be killing the goose that laid the golgen eggs in the minds of Muslim Rulers.

IN fact, many Christians and Jews served in high places in government during under Islamic rule. Many served even as Vizier, which was the equivalent of Prime Minister under the Caliphate. Again, no Jews or Muslims served in high government positions before the modern era of Westernn Civilization.

No such treatment was accorded to Muslims or Jews in Christian lands during the same period,

The modern muslim “terrorists” can be viewd in the same light as the Jewish “Zealots” spoken of in the New Testement. They were zelous for God, Zelous for the Holy City of Jerusalem, and they felth that the Roman presence in their holiest place was blasphmous. So goes it for Al Qaeda and other Islamic Fundamentlists, they are zelous for Allah, their God , who theyt equate with the same got the Jews were zelous for. They are zelous to pretect the sanctity of their holy cities, Mecca and Medina, and by extension, Saudi Arabia, adn they feel that the presence of westerners in their holy places, including the client kings who rule Saudi Arabia, supported by the west, and by extension, Christians. Those who westernize Saudi Arabia are looked at by the Fundamentalist Muslims the way that the hellenizing Romanswere viewed by the Jews of Jesus’s time. They spread an ungodly civilization in Gods holy land. THe Saudi Rulers who westrernize Islamic lands are viewd much like Herod was by the Jews.Very few Muslims ascribe to this extreme view.
To condemn their faith for the behavior of a very tiny group of Muslims is extremely wrong and disapproved of by the Church and in the Catechism, where other faiths are viewd not to be false, but to be incomplete.

Given the rather violent history of the Catholic Church, other faiths ask the same question of trees and fruit. Is that a correct view of the Holy Church? Of course not.

To condemnd Islam as a violent religion is to ignore history and its lessons.
 
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nevancik:
No, the Quran doesnt teach that at all. They teach that Christian,Jews and Muslims will all be judges by their individual prophets, and on the day of judgement, each prophet from theie religion will stand before Allah, with those who follewd him, and judge whether each beleiver has tried to live by the teachings of that prophet.
Quote the passages from the Quran.
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nevancik:
The second coming is preached by Islam , and Jesus will return, destroy the Dajjal(anti-christ), and then his justice wll be established throught the entire earth. He wil not reign for 1000 years but for 40 years, the remainder of a natural life, and die at the age of 70. The place that he will battle the Dajjal will fo courese be the Middle East, but the war of the Dajjal will start whent the Dajjal attacks the nation of Iraq in order to possess some sort of treasure that will found beneith the Euprates River.
Oddly enough, in one of the descriptions of the Dajjal, it is stated that he will have hair resembling a bush (Islamic Fundamentalists are making a big deal over that. I guess interpretation of eschatological literature can be a dangerous thing)
Quote the Quran for the passages you’re referring to
 
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nevancik:
Well, historically, Christians have killed far more people in the effort to spread Christianity than Muslims have.** The Christian Crusaders killed many, many Muslims, and even Eastern Orthodox residents of the areas they travelled through on their way to the Holy Land during the Crusades. During the THird Crusaded, they did nothing but slaughter Christians in Constantinople. The Spanish killed and enslaved lots of Native American in the conquest of the New World and other Colonial areas.**

ON the other hand, the spread of Islam was relatively bloodless by comparison,** Muslim soldiers were under orders to kill no one but soldiers. Non-Combatants were protected Homes were not to be destroyed, crops for those living in thesareas conquered were to be spared. Priest, monks and other holy men were to be treated with respect, as were the places of worship. And largely they were. Rather than kill Christians and Jews, they were allowed to keep their faiths and conversion was not forced under pain of death.** Compare that to the way most of Europe and Russia was converted.One king decided to convert, and all of his subjects were converted in a mass baptism, of be killed.

Undervthe Islamic Caliphate Christians and Jews were considered separate nations. Only Muslims were subject to Muslim laws. The Christian and Jewish nations were allowed to elect thie own leadership councils who would administer the laws of both faiths. While non muslims were charged a tax for the priviledge of keeping thie religion, they were not forced or even allowed to serve in the military. The tax was used in part to assist in the upkeep of religious places of worship, and adminstered by the respective councils. The rest was used for other public works in Christian and Jewish areas, as well as protection from attack by large bands of thiefs and despoilers.
In fact, after a while conversion toIslam by Christian and Jews was discouraged,** as they were a large source of the Caliphates tax revenues.Killing Christians nad Jews would be killing the goose that laid the golgen eggs in the minds of Muslim Rulers.

IN fact, many Christians and Jews served in high places in government during under Islamic rule. Many served even as Vizier, which was the equivalent of Prime Minister under the Caliphate. Again, no Jews or Muslims served in high government positions before the modern era of Westernn Civilization.

No such treatment was accorded to Muslims or Jews in Christian lands during the same period,

The modern muslim “terrorists” can be viewd in the same light as the Jewish “Zealots” spoken of in the New Testement. They were zelous for God, Zelous for the Holy City of Jerusalem, and they felth that the Roman presence in their holiest place was blasphmous. So goes it for Al Qaeda and other Islamic Fundamentlists, they are zelous for Allah, their God , who theyt equate with the same got the Jews were zelous for. They are zelous to pretect the sanctity of their holy cities, Mecca and Medina, and by extension, Saudi Arabia, adn they feel that the presence of westerners in their holy places, including the client kings who rule Saudi Arabia, supported by the west, and by extension, Christians. Those who westernize Saudi Arabia are looked at by the Fundamentalist Muslims the way that the hellenizing Romanswere viewed by the Jews of Jesus’s time. They spread an ungodly civilization in Gods holy land. THe Saudi Rulers who westrernize Islamic lands are viewd much like Herod was by the Jews.Very few Muslims ascribe to this extreme view.
To condemn their faith for the behavior of a very tiny group of Muslims is extremely wrong and disapproved of by the Church and in the Catechism, where other faiths are viewd not to be false, but to be incomplete.

Given the rather violent history of the Catholic Church, other faiths ask the same question of trees and fruit. Is that a correct view of the Holy Church? Of course not.

To condemnd Islam as a violent religion is to ignore history and its lessons.
  1. Islam has/ does convert by the sword.
  2. Christians can’t worship freely in Muslim countries.
  3. Christianity didn’t kill more than Islam. Just ask the Christian Armenians and many other groups targeted for genecide.
  4. The Aztec’s you mention, were a waring tribe, were slavers, and practiced human and child sacrifice, killing millions. When the Blessed Virgin appeared as Our Lady of Guadalupe, 8 million Indians converted to Catholicism. Possibly the single biggest conversion EVER! These were the same Indians who were practicing human sacrifice.
5… If Islam is not to be condemned as a violent religion, their leaders need to speak up NOW and condemn their violence around the world.
 
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nevancik:
To condemn their faith for the behavior of a very tiny group of Muslims is extremely wrong and disapproved of by the Church and in the Catechism, where other faiths are viewd not to be false, but to be incomplete.

Given the rather violent history of the Catholic Church, other faiths ask the same question of trees and fruit. Is that a correct view of the Holy Church? Of course not.

To condemnd Islam as a violent religion is to ignore history and its lessons.
Only God can judge a persons heart. You’re making historical comparisons to justify brutality and hate here. The Catholic Church changed and no longer does the things that you mentioned in your post. Islamic nations still practice things like public executions, stonings, and are teaching falsehoods all in Gods name. I cant justify calling a religion that does not acknowledge Christ as the son of God and lives 800 years behind the rest of the world “incomplete”. I call it what it is a total false religion started by a flase prophet.

If some guy shows up today claiming that he is the next prophet from God and starts a religion that allows 150 lashes for adultery in the US he would be thrown in jail. Just because it happens “over there” and we can’t see it does not make it right. Try to imagine being in a state of grace and grabbing that whip and giving a pregnant woman 75 lashes for God. This is all taking place in the year 2005. They don’t do it because they are a third world country and they don’t do it out of ignorance. They do this in faith and they do it for God. These are Islamic governments doing what they say God instructs them to do. If there is an abscence of love and mercy there is an abscense of God. In that regard I agree that it’s incomplete.

-D
 
I personally never cared what Moslems had to say. I always considered it a cult, like Voodoo or Wicca.

Even though the government of Haiti has recognized Voodoo as an official religion, am I supposed to care what it thinks of Christianity? So why should I care about Islam’s opinion of Catholicism?

I’ve had several violent arguments with black muslims in the Navy and in Boston, who tend to use Islam as a source of African identification and an excuse to hate white people. The violent pagan Rastafarianism is another Islamic offshoot, who preach death to white people. For some strange reason these Afro-American cultists think I’m not supposed to defend my religion (or myself) when confronted by their lies and accusations.

I’ve had similar problems with North African moslems at work years before the 911 muslim terrorist attack. So again I generally ignore the opinions of Mohammedans.
 
I personally never cared what Moslems had to say. I always considered it a cult, like Voodoo or Wicca.
Good point,

The only problem is that there are about 1.2 billion Muslims running around and unfortunately it’s the second largest religion on Earth. Christianity is still number one. I honestly feel sorry for people born in places like Iran because the truth is never allowed to flurish. Islam does well in prisons, people like it because they can continue to hate in there existing lifestyle.

-D
 
steve b said:
2. Christians can’t worship freely in Muslim countries.

As recently as the 19th century, only Catholicism and Judaism were permitted to be practiced in the Papal States – and the Jews had to pay a special tax, which was used to build houses for Catholic converts (not to finance actual Jewish synagogues, as the jizya is). There were a few Protestant churches, but those were for visitors.

It seems a bit unfair to criticize Islamic countries today for something we were doing only 150 years ago.

steve b said:
5… If Islam is not to be condemned as a violent religion, their leaders need to speak up NOW and condemn their violence around the world.

What about this?
 
It seems a bit unfair to criticize Islamic countries today for something we were doing only 150 years ago.
Why? 150 years ago is a long time. The past mistakes of any religion can not justify the current mistakes of Islam. This is today and we are talking about right now. The whole world is guilty of past sins and abominations. Things have changed and Islam has decided not to. With regards to the Spanish Fatwa against Osama I can not honestly blame them since they were recently blown up. Did all of Islam embrace this? Is all of Islam willing to ‘stop violence’? I can honestly say that if Islam was in charge of the United States military they would launch a world conquest and plow under every country on Earth and kill billions for God in a global conversion. I am very greatful that there is not an Islamic nuclear superpower in existence.

-D
 
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Darrel:
Why? 150 years ago is a long time.
I’ve heard people say that things like Rationalism, and Liberalism (the heresy, not the political position) are recent things, that will blow over… that 200 years is nothing to a Church that has existed for 2000 years. Well, we can’t have it both ways. 150 years is not a long time compared to the full lifetimes of our respective churches (I am Orthodox, by the way).

There was a time when the Islamic world was the center of the arts, medicine and mathematics while Christendom was regarded – rightly – as a land of benighted savages. Check this out, for instance. A Muslim might have wondered then about what was inherent to the Christian religion to make them so barbarous. And today, we know the answer is nothing.

I suspect Europe overcame its old ways because being number 2 is a powerful motivator (as Linus wrote to the Great Pumpkin, once). It now remains to be seen if the Muslim world can find a way forward. We’ll have to wait and see: God knows it took Spain long enough to approach some semblance of sanity after Los Reyes Católicos and the Reconquista.
 
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Emery:
I’ve heard people say that things like Rationalism, and Liberalism (the heresy, not the political position) are recent things, that will blow over… that 200 years is nothing to a Church that has existed for 2000 years. Well, we can’t have it both ways. 150 years is not a long time compared to the full lifetimes of our respective churches (I am Orthodox, by the way).

There was a time when the Islamic world was the center of the arts, medicine and mathematics while Christendom was regarded – rightly – as a land of benighted savages. Check this out, for instance. A Muslim might have wondered then about what was inherent to the Christian religion to make them so barbarous. And today, we know the answer is nothing.

I suspect Europe overcame its old ways because being number 2 is a powerful motivator (as Linus wrote to the Great Pumpkin, once). It now remains to be seen if the Muslim world can find a way forward. We’ll have to wait and see: God knows it took Spain long enough to approach some semblance of sanity after Los Reyes Católicos and the Reconquista.
The medical points in your link are certainly valid without a doubt. Nobody can deny that both Europe and the United Stated have come light years in the past 150 years. There was certainly a time that we all engaged in sick and barbaric practices as a Christian Church.

One difference I find important to point out is the fact that technology has made information much more available in this day and age. People all over the Middle East have TV and radio and they realize that the rest of the world is not doing what there country is.

Democracy i.e.: republics with freedom of religion are a crucial change in the history of the world. As we see in the United States Islam is not allowed to carry out the same practices it would in Iran. The leadership in such places allow for all sort of dictatorial hate in government policies. If democracy eventually were allowed in the Middle East and people could choose there own religion I feel that Christianity would eventually consume Islam into its rightful oblivion. We all have the knowledge of good and evil. The only reason these things happen over there is because people are afraid to speak from the heart and say “hey this is wrong”. If they do then they won’t live very long in an Islamic state.

I understand the tendency towards historical comparison with regards to Islam and Christianity. At the end of the day it’s like apples and oranges with the advent of democracy and technology allowing for information being available for all. In other words there is absolutely no excuse for anything they are doing or justifying in the Middle East. It is a straight up embrace of evil that spits in the face of the entire civilized world.

-D
 
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Emery:
As recently as the 19th century, only Catholicism and Judaism were permitted to be practiced in the Papal States – and the Jews had to pay a special tax, which was used to build houses for Catholic converts (not to finance actual Jewish synagogues, as the jizya is). There were a few Protestant churches, but those were for visitors.
Papal States were private property of the Church within Italy.
newadvent.org/cathen/14257a.htm Kindly read the entire article.
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Emery:
It seems a bit unfair to criticize Islamic countries today for something we were doing only 150 years ago.
Private property within a country, is what a papal state is. As opposed to public and governmental property within a country which is all the rest of the land. The Church has a right to manage her own property as she sees fit. Your comparison is not valid.
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Emery:
What about this?
That’s a start. But as the article said, muslims don’t have a central authority. So no ONE speaks for islam. Do we hear anything about the condemnation in our news? No! What about the muslims in our country after 911? Any outcry? What about In Canada? In Europe? Africa, Indonesia?, etc etc etc. Have you seen what is going on in Africa?
 
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Emery:
There was a time when the Islamic world was the center of the arts, medicine and mathematics while Christendom was regarded – rightly – as a land of benighted savages. Check this out, for instance. A Muslim might have wondered then about what was inherent to the Christian religion to make them so barbarous. And today, we know the answer is nothing.
The most savage cultures on the planet are predominately populated by muslims. Just look at Africa and the middle East. If they were center of the arts, medicine, and mathematics, while Christendom was regarded as savages, then we ought to be far far behind the muslims, and they should be galaxies ahead of us by now.
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Emery:
I suspect Europe overcame its old ways because being number 2 is a powerful motivator (as Linus wrote to the Great Pumpkin, once). It now remains to be seen if the Muslim world can find a way forward. We’ll have to wait and see: God knows it took Spain long enough to approach some semblance of sanity after Los Reyes Católicos and the Reconquista.
And Spain liberated themselves of moslem rule. In the East, it remains to be seen, after so many centuries under moslem rule, and 70+ years of communist rule, if the East can get some semblence of gratitude towards the pope JPII, for his successful efforts to bring about the collapse of communism…
 
steve b:
Papal States were private property of the Church within Italy.
newadvent.org/cathen/14257a.htm Kindly read the entire article.
I’ve read the article before. Here’s the very third sentence of it:
Until the middle of the eighth century this consisted wholly of private property, but the term was later applied to the States of the Church, and more particularly to the Duchy of Rome.
Emphasis added. Not that it would be any better if the Papal States were private property.
steve b:
If they were center of the arts, medicine, and mathematics, while Christendom was regarded as savages, then we ought to be far far behind the muslims, and they should be galaxies ahead of us by now.
That’s a rather simplistic view of history, don’t you think? You may have already read it, as it’s a very well known book, but I recommend Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies by Jared Diamond for an in depth answer to the general question.
 
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Darrel:
Good point,

The only problem is that there are about 1.2 billion Muslims running around and unfortunately it’s the second largest religion on Earth. Christianity is still number one. I honestly feel sorry for people born in places like Iran because the truth is never allowed to flurish. Islam does well in prisons, people like it because they can continue to hate in there existing lifestyle.

-D
Yes, Islam does flourish in American prisons. Cassius Clay became a muslim and so did Mike Tyson; as a way of survival. Two muslims sayings: You must kiss the hand you cannot cut off; and, The Koran or the Sword!

Afro Americans become muslim as a way of validating hate towards whitey. Malcolm X’s famous words: White people are the blue eyed devil! Is there an equivalent expression in Christianity? No!
 
Kevin Walker:
Yes, Islam does flourish in American prisons. Cassius Clay became a muslim and so did Mike Tyson; as a way of survival. Two muslims sayings: You must kiss the hand you cannot cut off; and, The Koran or the Sword!

Afro Americans become muslim as a way of validating hate towards whitey. Malcolm X’s famous words: White people are the blue eyed devil! Is there an equivalent expression in Christianity? No!

That need not stop such an expression coming into to existence, unfortunately.​

Theologically, we are all scum (more or less - maybe that was a bit strong; read St. Paul, in Romans & Galatians, passim). So why be surprised if people are no better than the religion they profess, or even worse ? People are not nice - they kill, murder, steal, slander, rape, lie, and do a million other things of the same kind. So of course, being human, Muslims do this, and think that criminal savagery is transcendently pleasing to Almighty God. Just like Christians, piously lynching negroes, or even more piously burning homosexuals alive, or inciting violence against Christ-killing, child-sacrificing, devil-worshipping Jews.

The world is drowning in blood shed by religious people - certain Muslims are merely joining in. ##
 
Gottle of Geer:
. Just like Christians, piously lynching negroes, or even more piously burning homosexuals alive, or inciting violence against Christ-killing, child-sacrificing, devil-worshipping Jews.
I’m sorry Gottle of Geer, but your examples are fallacioius. Where is it in any Christian literature advocating violence against homosexuals, Jews or negroes? Yet in Book 10 of the Jewish Talmud it advocates hatred toward the “Goyim”; Afro-American muslims do preach hatred in their temples against white people; and homosexuals have used heterosexual children as sex comodities. I have never come across any Christian literature stating it is o.k. to do any of the above.
 
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Contarini:
I’ve also been reading Karen Armstrong’s History of God, but I don’t trust Armstrong that much (though she’s a brilliant writer–I’m not accusing her of dishonesty, but her bias as an ex-Catholic really distorts her perspective).
Edwin
What did you think of her thoughts on Christianity in this book? To me it seemed almost an afterthought by her.
 
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