The issue of gay intolerance

[PEPCIS]

I like your statement, you should check out the thread “Can Catholics in America be Moral?”

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=340210

It deals with some issues connected to this thread, tolerating mortal sin and personal responsibility.

Thanks, I’ll check it out.

“*t is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand…The only foundation of a free Constitution, is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People, in a great Measure, than they have it now, They may change their Rulers, and the forms of Government, but they will not obtain a lasting Liberty.”

–John Adams, letter to his son, Zabdiel Adams, 21 June 1776*

 

[PEPCIS]

It’s not the state’s job to teach Christian values.

Ooooops!! Someone is buying into that false “Church/State argument” again. Please remember that there is no such thing as “the separation of church and state” contained anywhere in the Constitution which reads anything like what you just said.

But, then again, I’ve already told you about that. You never responded.

calamityjames:

Believe it or not, that’s the Church’s job.

Yes, and that is John’s job, and your job, and my job, and Mary’s job, etc, etc. In America, we teach our values through societal messages. For example, you can find tons of commercials against drunk driving, and driving without a seat belt, and “don’t do drugs”, etc, etc. Society collectively determines what values they will tolerate, and which ones they will not.

calamityjames:

Surely exposing your child to alternative views and allowing them to discern right from wrong for themselves (with your help) can only lead to the strengthening of their faith?

You’re joking, right? Sheesh. Talk about throwing your children under the bus! Your job, as parent, is to protect your kids from evil, not subject them to it.

calamityjames:

It’s a dangerous path we take when we decide that schools should only teach specific values and the children should follow them unquestioningly.

Sure. You mean like teaching our children about safe sex is “dangerous”? Is teaching our kids about public manners dangerous as well? After all, we teach that value at schools across America.

calamityjames:

One of the greatest gifts we can have as Christians is the strength and wisdom to challenge and question everything, to learn not to accept what is told to us by the media, the government, our peers, our schools or our culture without first evaluating it through the Gospels with the help of the Holy Spirit & the Church.

That’s the exact opposite of what we should be doing. Your statement above is an excellent example of “bait and switch.” You presented this picture of allowing our children to be exposed to evil for the purposes of allowing them to determine what is right and wrong for themselves, and then you switched to a scenario of adults who “learn not to accept what is told to us by the media, the government, our peers, our schools or our culture…”

Those are things that only adults, with mature faculties, are able to do. Children need to be told what is right and wrong, and then encouraged to perform the right thing. Otherwise, they will often choose the wrong. This is parenting 101.

By NOT exposing children to homosexuality it is as if we are trying to pretend it doesn’t exist, which will only lead to our children having a distorted view of the world, unable to cope with the realities that face them later in life. Allowing them to see homosexuality from a positive point of view will lead to their being able to relate to homosexuals with loving Christian empathy when they get older.

Actually, by allowing them to see homosexuality from a Positive Point Of View will lead to them accepting it as a true and acceptable alternative to Heterosexuality. But that’s what you’re really fighting for, isn’t it, James?

 

[zachforn]

Ooooops!! Someone is buying into that false “Church/State argument” again. Please remember that there is no such thing as “the separation of church and state” contained anywhere in the Constitution which reads anything like what you just said.

Society collectively determines what values they will tolerate, and which ones they will not.

You opinions don’t seem to align. At one instance you say that we as a collective society have no right to interpret the first amendment as creating the separation of church and state, then you go on to state the exact opposite, that society collectively determines it’s destiny.

You’re joking, right? Sheesh. Talk about throwing your children under the bus! Your job, as parent, is to protect your kids from evil, not subject them to it.

Certainly ONE of our jobs or being parents is to protect them from evil, it is also another job to prepare our children to understand deal with evil, this means exposing them to it, in much the same way that it is important for children to loose and fail at some tasks (youth sports is perfect for this), to foster both a healthy understanding of defeat and the lesson of humility in victory.

 

[CWBetts]

You opinions don’t seem to align. At one instance you say that we as a collective society have no right to interpret the first amendment as creating the separation of church and state, then you go on to state the exact opposite, that society collectively determines it’s destiny.

Certainly ONE of our jobs or being parents is to protect them from evil, it is also another job to prepare our children to understand deal with evil, this means exposing them to it, in much the same way that it is important for children to loose and fail at some tasks (youth sports is perfect for this), to foster both a healthy understanding of defeat and the lesson of humility in victory.

THey can be taught about evil with out being subjected to it! I would not want to have to explain why two men and two women are doing something amiss. We know this type of behavior is against the natural order of things because chaldren are always confused when they see it!

 

[Lynxdk]

Actually, by allowing them to see homosexuality from a Positive Point Of View will lead to them accepting it as a true and acceptable alternative to Heterosexuality. But that’s what you’re really fighting for, isn’t it, James?

Way to put words in people mouths and accuse them of something they haven’t even done. Get them offended so they either don’t want to talk to you anymore or they come back upset with you and fight harder against you, because you’re accusing them of wrong doing they haven’t done.

This is one case where I can’t say “I don’t mean you Pepcis” because that’s really, quite simply, a low blow and not called for.

I still like you though, and a lot of what you have to say does make sense, it’s just usually you’re nicer about it

 

[calamityjames]

Ooooops!! Someone is buying into that false “Church/State argument” again. Please remember that there is no such thing as “the separation of church and state” contained anywhere in the Constitution which reads anything like what you just said.

I am not American and the Constitution has no authority over me. Nor should it over you as a Christian.

Those are things that only adults, with mature faculties, are able to do. Children need to be told what is right and wrong, and then encouraged to perform the right thing. Otherwise, they will often choose the wrong. This is parenting 101.

To be fair, you have a point.
Up to a certain age, I don’t believe sex and sexuality should be on the agenda for teaching to kids. But when children reach the age of 11, they begin to develop the ability to question and challenge (which teenagers do almost constantly), and to understand abstract thought. This is around the same time when sex and sexuality begins to become a factor in their lives, so by this stage they will have, or will be developing, the ability to reason right from wrong.

Actually, by allowing them to see homosexuality from a Positive Point Of View will lead to them accepting it as a true and acceptable alternative to Heterosexuality. But that’s what you’re really fighting for, isn’t it, James?

You think sexuality is so easily manipulated that what we read in a textbook can influence whether or not we are attracted to the opposite sex?

In my culture, homosexuality is a true and acceptable alternative to heterosexuality. In my faith, it is not. All I am saying is that my faith teaches me to be critical of my culture, and if I am able to teach this to my children then I need not worry about what alternative cultural value systems are presented to them.
The alternative is a confusion between religion and government, wherin all people are subject to the laws of Christianity whether they are Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist or Atheist.

 

[PEPCIS]

You opinions don’t seem to align. At one instance you say that we as a collective society have no right to interpret the first amendment as creating the separation of church and state, then you go on to state the exact opposite, that society collectively determines it’s destiny.

My opinions DO align. You are just misinformed about the subject. First, as regards the definition of “society”, you must remember that American society is not relegated solely to what is private or civilian. The US Government is the full representation of our society and what values we hold and enforce. You seem to be separating those two aspects and creating a false duality of society.

The Constitution was made by men who recognized that you could not separate morals from government, because that very concept would lead quickly to a Democracy, which was abhorred by our Founding Fathers.

There is no true separation of Church and State, and even now the morals that are being infused into laws do not reflect our traditional views of what is moral and right.

Zach:

Certainly ONE of our jobs or being parents is to protect them from evil, it is also another job to prepare our children to understand deal with evil, this means exposing them to it. . .

So, you take your children to see snuff films? You expose your children to evil by forcing them to view murder, rape, terroristic beheadings, etc, etc.?

Zach:

. . . in much the same way that it is important for children to loose and fail at some tasks (youth sports is perfect for this), to foster both a healthy understanding of defeat and the lesson of humility in victory.

Apple, Orange.

 

[ladybri77]

Is that Romans 2:1? Because if it is, it’s an excellent example of changing the words around a little so it means what you want it to say, rather than what the quote I gave says, because of a little transposing.

Hmmm, wonder who else does that?

 

[ladybri77]

Excellent response.

It’s not the state’s job to teach Christian values. Believe it or not, that’s the Church’s job. Surely exposing your child to alternative views and allowing them to discern right from wrong for themselves (with your help) can only lead to the strengthening of their faith?

It’s a dangerous path we take when we decide that schools should only teach specific values and the children should follow them unquestioningly. One of the greatest gifts we can have as Christians is the strength and wisdom to challenge and question everything, to learn not to accept what is told to us by the media, the government, our peers, our schools or our culture without first evaluating it through the Gospels with the help of the Holy Spirit & the Church.

By NOT exposing children to homosexuality it is as if we are trying to pretend it doesn’t exist, which will only lead to our children having a distorted view of the world, unable to cope with the realities that face them later in life. Allowing them to see homosexuality from a positive point of view will lead to their being able to relate to homosexuals with loving Christian empathy when they get older.

It’s true, it would be easier for parents in the short term if schools brainwashed kids with the exact messages they want them to hear, but lets not be lazy Christians expecting the schools to do our work for us. Let’s expose them to any and all cultural viewpoints so that they can be cultural critics, let’s encourage them to challenge and think for themselves so that they can have a well-rounded, well-examined faith rather than one which is built upon the shaky ground of ignorance.

End of rant

No one’s asking the schools to teach Christian values, but please don’t teach my kids the exact opposite! I’m all for teaching them to see people in a positive light and differentiating that from their actions, great! But their message a lot of times is that this is okay. And he’s right, I need to sit down with them and say that it’s not right, but they are very influenced by what they see, hear and do in school and that’s where the fuzzy line comes in. I will teach them differently, however, in the meantime, how will they be influenced by what they see and hear?

By the way, I will turn them over to God for His protection.

 

[ladybri77]

The alternative is a confusion between religion and government, wherin all people are subject to the laws of Christianity whether they are Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist or Atheist.

People keep saying how this will affect people from other religions. Excuse me, but that is what the law has been up until very recently! All these people from different religions have been subject to the same law of marriage being between one man and one woman in the U.S. for how long now? Yes, hundreds of years. Also, if you look at their own cultures, probably 95% (guessing) of their marriage has been between a man and a woman, with polygamy possibly occuring also, but even in their cultures, marriage along with sex is the majority of the time between one man and one woman.

So this is nothing new! Why people keep saying well how would they like being subject to the laws of Christianity? This law of Christianity and of the United States of America (marriage) has been the norm for hundresd of years until just recently!

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

Actually, by allowing them to see homosexuality from a Positive Point Of View will lead to them accepting it as a true and acceptable alternative to Heterosexuality. But that’s what you’re really fighting for, isn’t it, James?

Way to put words in people mouths and accuse them of something they haven’t even done.

Not really. It was a rhetorical question which ASSUMES the logical conclusion. First the statement of truth: “allowing children to see homosexuality portrayed in a positive social framework will lead children to higher rates of acceptability when they grow up.”

Next, an honest conclusion framed as a rhetorical question: “That’s what you’re fighting for.”

Rhetorical questions are valuable grammatical tools in driving home a point that is clearly seen in the debate - perhaps even a point that your opponent is not willing to OPENLY admit.

Are you telling me that you wouldn’t want to see higher rates of acceptability among the populace? Isn’t that what you’re arguing for? Isn’t that a REASONABLE conclusion to assert for those who advocate for equal moral footing for homosexuality?

Lynx:

Get them offended so they either don’t want to talk to you anymore or they come back upset with you and fight harder against you, because you’re accusing them of wrong doing they haven’t done.

Well, I guess you’d be wrong. If they are offended, then they are offended independent of my person. The truth is the truth, and that can’t change, regardless whether PEPCIS delivers the truth, or anyone else does.

My experience in debate forums on this particular subject is that MOST homosexual advocates will go two, maybe three rounds before they “get offended.” It’s actually quite reasonable to expect that the homosexual advocate will become enraged, because it is the nature of truth to offend those who “hold the truth in unrighteousness.” (Romans 1:18)

Lynx:

This is one case where I can’t say “I don’t mean you Pepcis” because that’s really, quite simply, a low blow and not called for.

Since when is it a “low blow” to ask a question?

Lynx:

I still like you though, and a lot of what you have to say does make sense, it’s just usually you’re nicer about it

Sorry. I always try to be nice. I do like you, also. I like James, too. But I can’t apologize for my mind coming to logical conclusions and then rhetorically applying them to the debate.

 

[PEPCIS]

No one’s asking the schools to teach Christian values, but please don’t teach my kids the exact opposite!

Hi Lady. Sorry, but I disagree. I am asking that the schools teach Christian values. I see absolutely nothing wrong with the schools teaching that you should honor your mother and father; that you shouldn’t lie; that you shouldn’t steal or cheat; that you should honor God and not blaspheme His name; that you shouldn’t murder; you shouldn’t covet your neighbors things, etc, etc.

There is nothing inherently wrong with teaching a Bhuddist to do the same things. Don’t you agree?

 

[ladybri77]

Hi Lady. Sorry, but I disagree. I am asking that the schools teach Christian values. I see absolutely nothing wrong with the schools teaching that you should honor your mother and father; that you shouldn’t lie; that you shouldn’t steal or cheat; that you should honor God and not blaspheme His name; that you shouldn’t murder; you shouldn’t covet your neighbors things, etc, etc.

There is nothing inherently wrong with teaching a Bhuddist to do the same things. Don’t you agree?

Yes, but I believe they should leave the tough things like homosexuality for the church and home to teach and be neutral on it at school. I agree, they should teach the things you mentioned above except that they don’t. They might teach that you shouldn’t lie or cheat, murder, etc, but they don’t teach the rest. That’s just the way it is. I would hope children would get taught the rest at home and in the church.

It’s funny, most of the basic laws are already in effect anyway and people complain about pushing Christian values on them when they are already in place to begin with! Like murder, cheating, adultery, and polygamy laws which are already on the books.

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

Ooooops!! Someone is buying into that false “Church/State argument” again. Please remember that there is no such thing as “the separation of church and state” contained anywhere in the Constitution which reads anything like what you just said.

I am not American and the Constitution has no authority over me. Nor should it over you as a Christian.

No wonder you’re confused. Non-Americans have a difficult time understanding the Constitution and its intent and purpose. Heck, most Americans have that difficulty.

However, you don’t have to be American to understand the false “Church/State” argument. Regardless of what type of government, any government which is devoid of a strong moral code will have grave difficulties in treating people with the principles which our government was founded upon.

Our Founding Fathers knew this, which is why they created for us the US Constitution, as an attempt to ward off Democratic principles which would one day destroy those freedoms which the Constitution guarantees.

As for your statement that the Constitution should have no authority over me as a Christian, you are quite wrong. The Constitution was instituted by Christians for Christians. It was intended for no other type of people, but it can adequately protect the freedoms of ALL. The Constitution has authority over me, precisely because I allow it to.

Actually, by allowing them to see homosexuality from a Positive Point Of View will lead to them accepting it as a true and acceptable alternative to Heterosexuality. But that’s what you’re really fighting for, isn’t it, James?

calamityjames:

You think sexuality is so easily manipulated that what we read in a textbook can influence whether or not we are attracted to the opposite sex?

Most definitely. This, coupled with the explosion of positive references for homosexuality that are inundating our culture, form a very strong influence upon our young children.

calamityjames:

In my culture, homosexuality is a true and acceptable alternative to heterosexuality.

Just because you think rocks will float, doesn’t mean that they will.

calamityjames:

In my faith, [homosexuality] is not [a true and acceptable alternative to heterosexuality].

Why then do you fight against your faith? A house divided cannot stand.

 

[Lynxdk]

Hmmm, wonder who else does that?

~blinks innocently~

 

[Lynxdk]

Sorry. I always try to be nice. I do like you, also. I like James, too. But I can’t apologize for my mind coming to logical conclusions and then rhetorically applying them to the debate.

There really wasn’t much point to that, really, except to sort of remind myself why I don’t like debates, since they never really solve anything… Too many assumptions have to be made in order to prove a point, but even logical and reasonable assumptions are not always correct.

So I think I’ve milked all I can conversationally out of this thread as I can, and think it’s really time for me to leave it… I’ve tried doing that before though, so… we’ll see ~laughs~

So if I don’t come back, at least I’d like to say thank you, I got a lot out of it =)

God Bless!

 

[ladybri77]

“You think sexuality is so easily manipulated that what we read in a textbook can influence whether or not we are attracted to the opposite sex?”

“Most definitely. This, coupled with the explosion of positive references for homosexuality that are inundating our culture, form a very strong influence upon our young children.”

Have to disagree with you there, Pepcis. Being exposed to textbooks on homosexuality has no bearing on how someone becomes attracted to the same sex. My feeling is when children are exposed to books about homosexuality, they will learn it’s “okay” to do that, when it’s not. That’s the only concern I have.

 

[ladybri77]

There really wasn’t much point to that, really, except to sort of remind myself why I don’t like debates, since they never really solve anything… Too many assumptions have to be made in order to prove a point, but even logical and reasonable assumptions are not always correct.

So I think I’ve milked all I can conversationally out of this thread as I can, and think it’s really time for me to leave it… I’ve tried doing that before though, so… we’ll see ~laughs~

So if I don’t come back, at least I’d like to say thank you, I got a lot out of it =)

God Bless!

Okay, well thanks for taking part. I hope you’re heart will become open to God’s truth in this matter. And God Bless!

 

[PEPCIS]

Yes, but I believe they should leave the tough things like homosexuality for the church and home to teach and be neutral on it at school.

Neutrality doesn’t really appeal to me.

Here’s the thing: when AIDS first came out, it was called G.R.I.D.S., because it was effecting almost all Gays. Because it reached epidemic levels (and has remained at epidemic levels since that time), the CDC normally would have implemented quarantine procedures, and should have also instituted policies regarding a pandemic, but instead chose to do the politically-correct thing, and to just allow the disease to spread into the general population.

They claimed that the disease would spread to the general population, yet that claim never reached fruition. The WHO finally admitted this recently:

[SIGN]“A quarter of a century after the outbreak of Aids, the World Health Organisation (WHO) has accepted that the threat of a global heterosexual pandemic has disappeared.”[/SIGN]

So, in other words, AIDS has remained primarily a homosexual disease. Hemophiliacs don’t get it any more. Drug abusers do, but there are many gay/homosexual men in drug abuse. Haitians still get it, but with much less frequency than when it first appeared.

That means that engaging in homosexuality carries a significant risk of contracting HIV and developing AIDS. Heck, in public schools we teach our kids to stay away from drugs. Why can’t we teach them the dangers of homosexuality?
Ladybri:

It’s funny, most of the basic laws are already in effect anyway and people complain about pushing Christian values on them when they are already in place to begin with! Like murder, cheating, adultery, and polygamy laws which are already on the books.

Excellent point. I’m sure it will go right over their heads…

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

Actually, by allowing them to see homosexuality from a Positive Point Of View will lead to them accepting it as a true and acceptable alternative to Heterosexuality

. But that’s what you’re really fighting for, isn’t it, James?

calamityjames:

You think sexuality is so easily manipulated that what we read in a textbook can influence whether or not we are attracted to the opposite sex?

PEPCIS:

Most definitely. This, coupled with the explosion of positive references for homosexuality that are inundating our culture, form a very strong influence upon our young children.

Have to disagree with you there, Pepcis. Being exposed to textbooks on homosexuality has no bearing on how someone becomes attracted to the same sex.

I think you misread what was stated. Notice that I said exactly what you said:

[SIGN]ME: “allowing [our children] to see homosexuality from a Positive Point Of View will lead [our children to] accepting it as a true and acceptable alternative to Heterosexuality.”[/SIGN]
[SIGN]YOU: "[My only concern is that] when children are exposed to books about homosexuality, they will learn it’s “okay to do that, when it’s not.”[/SIGN]
ladybri:

My feeling is when children are exposed to books about homosexuality, they will learn it’s “okay” to do that, when it’s not. That’s the only concern I have.

So, of course, I never said that it had any “bearing on how someone becomes attracted to the same sex.” I only stated that it has an extremely strong influence upon our young children to become more accepting of this lifestyle.

I’m glad to see that we have yet to disagree!!