The issue of gay intolerance

[PEPCIS]

By the way, I am a heterosexual woman who is attracted to men and who sometimes struggles with same sex attraction. But I choose to remain celibate in my thoughts and actions and try to honor God with both.

“As we all struggle with our flesh in various ways at times.”

"For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. (Romans 7:18)

Keep fighting the good fight!!

 

[PEPCIS]

You cannot control what you feel, but you can control how you react on them.

You CAN control how you feel and how you react. You’re espousing some new scientific and religious doctrine. You control how you feel and react by PRACTICING the opposite. When you practice sin, you will AUTOMATICALLY gravitate toward sin when the choice is presented to you.

If you practice virtuous behaviors, you will strengthen them, and this will cause you to feel and act differently.

YOU ARE NOT ROBOTS. You CAN control yourself and your passions.

 

[PEPCIS]

. . . there are times a Man comes on to me, and is very very good looking. I think wow! Would I for one split second wonder what if. Heck yes I do, I can’t help it. A good looking Man turns me on, always has. But to react and cheat on my Husband, thats a sin.

They are BOTH sins, but one is more easily repented of than the other. The thought is still subject to your control. It doesn’t mean that you don’t or won’t ever feel or think about such things. In today’s society, this is very hard, because the culture inundates us with all manner of perversion by showing us scantily clad women and men on tv commercials and on the shows themselves.

But, I would suggest that if you were to remove yourself from all the influences of the culture (like the shows we watch on tv, and the movies that we pay good money for, and the magazines that we buy, etc, etc, then I strongly believe that you will be more able to resist the wiles of the devil. Indeed, we are COMMANDED to do that.

 

[mardukm]

You seem to be fixated on a single potential contribution that heterosexual couples can give society. Out of all the contributions and boons that a loving union between two people can bring to a society (stable local community, less crime, united purchasing power , community involvement, improvement, etc. [all contributions that single people don’t bring to the table at the level that a married couple does]), out of all the contributions that gay married couples can bring you focus on one. WHY?
All these contributions can be given by gays in civil union. They don’t have to be legally married to bring in these contributions, so it does not at all support your position. The thing that makes heterosexual couples more unique is their potential to have children naturally without draining national resources.

And besides that is no longer the case, because ALL gay female couples have the potential of giving birth through various contemporary birthing options. Not all of them will work towards this potential, nor will all married couples, but the potential is there for ALL female gay couples.

In this light do you now have a legal, societal (nonreligious) reason to deny them the benefits that others are given.

Two reasons: (1) Gay female couples can’t have children naturally and must drain the health care system in order to provide for them to be artificially inseminated. If they pay for it themselves,fine, but that is not likely, and there’s no guarantee that they will want to have children anyway. Gay men can’t have children. So the contribution of gay couples in that respect is either nil or negligible. Face it - heterosexual couples have a dramatically greater potential to have children than gay couples.

(2) The only natural way for a female gay couple to have a child is to have a merely non-loving sex-partner, which is an abomination, even by many secular standards on many levels, not least of which is the objectification of the human person. Let’s just suppose a lesbian couple finds a man willing to have a one-night fling. Such a situation reinforces in the man a lack of respect for women which is bad for society as a whole. Why would you want that?

 

[KawaitaSakebi]

They are BOTH sins, but one is more easily repented of than the other. The thought is still subject to your control. It doesn’t mean that you don’t or won’t ever feel or think about such things. QUOTE]

If I may stop lurking and drop my two cents in…I think you and Ladybri are closer to agreement than you think. Thoughts definitely CAN be sins, but only if they’re consciously chosen. As I saw it once (paraphrased): “If you’re going along and a sexual thought pops into your head, what do you do? Do you say ‘ok, I’m a sexual being’ and go on with your day, or do you say ‘wow, that feels good’ and think about it for the next half hour?”

So the ‘attraction’ that Ladybri is talking about is the pop-into-your-head kind, while you’re talking about something deliberately thought about and enjoyed. Have I read either of you wrong? If so, would you mind defining your terms?

 

[rossum]

Very true. The laws are shifting. But this debate is not strictly about whether or not the laws are shifting, but whether or not a Christian culture has a right to impose their beliefs on the rest of society. The answer to that is obviously “yes.”

I disagree, and so does the First Amendment:Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
The laws of the US are decided by the procedures laid down in the Constitution. They are not decided on the basis of what is, or what is not, Christian morality. The abortion laws currently in place do not conform to Christian morality yet they are still valid laws. Similarly the law on gay marriage is being changed by constitutional methods and may not be consistent with Christian morality either.

A majority does not have absolute power under the US Consitition, there are protections for minorities built in.

rossum

 

[rinnie]

You CAN control how you feel and how you react. You’re espousing some new scientific and religious doctrine. You control how you feel and react by PRACTICING the opposite. When you practice sin, you will AUTOMATICALLY gravitate toward sin when the choice is presented to you.

If you practice virtuous behaviors, you will strengthen them, and this will cause you to feel and act differently.

YOU ARE NOT ROBOTS. You CAN control yourself and your passions.

How can you control how you feel. Lets do this another way, you come in and say to me boy did you get fat. You hurt my feelings. How can I control that. I feel hurt, How can I control that hurt at the moment. I am sorry I can’t. You never know how you are going to feel until it happens. You can only control your response to that. And then you can either dwell on it or forget about it and move on. Where did I say that you can’t control yourself, I said quite the opposite. That was my point. I don’t care if you throw the tv, radio, computer every single modern day appliance out the window, human desire still exists between people. While I agree that engaging in porn, etc is bad and can hurt you, and you should stay away from it, you can still have times in your life you can look at someone and get a spark. You did nothing to make that happen. Its human nature. But what you do is in your control, not how you feel. So I have to disagree with you. You are saying that we can control our feelings and we cant. Because if we could we would be robuts. While I agree that when the feeling or thought comes in your mind you can control that by not dwelling on it and put it out of your mind, which you must do, you still had no control of the thought entering. Sorry again I disagree.

 

[ladybri77]

PEPCIS;5208056:

They are BOTH sins, but one is more easily repented of than the other. The thought is still subject to your control. It doesn’t mean that you don’t or won’t ever feel or think about such things. QUOTE]

If I may stop lurking and drop my two cents in…I think you and Ladybri are closer to agreement than you think. Thoughts definitely CAN be sins, but only if they’re consciously chosen. As I saw it once (paraphrased): “If you’re going along and a sexual thought pops into your head, what do you do? Do you say ‘ok, I’m a sexual being’ and go on with your day, or do you say ‘wow, that feels good’ and think about it for the next half hour?”

So the ‘attraction’ that Ladybri is talking about is the pop-into-your-head kind, while you’re talking about something deliberately thought about and enjoyed. Have I read either of you wrong? If so, would you mind defining your terms?

Yes, that is exactly what I’m saying.

 

[ladybri77]

You CAN control how you feel and how you react. You’re espousing some new scientific and religious doctrine. You control how you feel and react by PRACTICING the opposite. When you practice sin, you will AUTOMATICALLY gravitate toward sin when the choice is presented to you.

If you practice virtuous behaviors, you will strengthen them, and this will cause you to feel and act differently.

YOU ARE NOT ROBOTS. You CAN control yourself and your passions.

They say if you change your thoughts, you can change how you feel. I believe this works, but it is hard to do… however, with practice… I just came out of cognitive therapy for OCD, basically it says if you change your thoughts, you can change the behavior, and it does work but you have to keep doing it. I think what you said, Pepcis, if you give into your desires, they get stronger, but if you spend more time with God, going to Adoration and attending Mass, reading His word, etc., you become more able to stay pure in your heart.

 

[zachforn]

All these contributions can be given by gays in civil union…

That’s incorrect.

Gay female couples can’t have children naturally and must drain the health care system in order to provide for them to be artificially inseminated. If they pay for it themselves,fine,

Good, so we’re making some progress here, so they have the potential, just like heterosexual couples, to have children, which will only get easier as technology advances. And if you admit they have the potential to can contribute to society in the same way heterosexual couples can, they therefore should be granted the same rights in a non-religious, legal marriage.

…there’s no guarantee that they will want to have children anyway. So the contribution of gay couples in that respect is either nil or negligible.

There are a lot more gay couples that want children than you are seemingly willing to admit for your argument.

Face it - heterosexual couples have a dramatically greater potential to have children than gay couples.

I think you’re mixing your words here. They have the same potential to have children. I think you mean to say that heterosexual couples have a greater “probability.” But your former argument is not about probability, it was about potential. Does a marriage have potential to contribute to society. And the answer we’ve found here is Yes, female homosexual couples have a potential to contribute to society in a way that passes your “test” of what a proper legal marriage needs to do.

 

[ladybri77]

I certainly can understand what it is that you are trying to express. When I was in my teens, and into my 20’s, I had uncontrollable anger issues. I say “uncontrollable” because I seemed to always be in a rage. I sought prefessional help, and was told that my anger issues came from a bad relationship with my step-father.

I told my counselor that I couldn’t help myself, and that I was the way that I was solely because my step-father made me this way. But the counselor then informed me that I could no longer (from that day forward) use that excuse, because I was now fully informed that I was in control of my own feelings, and only I could control them.

The point being that my anger was a result of events that were largely outside of my control. Now, that I’ve made that statement, it’s time to tie the two together to see the relevancy.

Even though those events were outside of my control, my feelings were in my control. I alone made the choices which allowed my anger to well up inside. Why is it that another child in the exact same situation would mature into an individual with no anger issues, yet I was loaded with those issues? Because each individual is a unique person, and makes personal choices which effect the outcome of their actions/reactions.

A person that becomes a homosexual does not become one without any personal accountability. Just as I would have been personally responsible if my anger had caused me to hurt another person, so too the homosexual must accept his personal accountability for what he feels, and for how he expresses those feelings.
Sure. But you cannot downplay presonal responsibility and accountability. You do that whenever you claim that homosexuals are not responsible for becoming who they are. Homosexuals are people too, and that means that they are just as responsible for the sin of homosexuality as a man who rapes because he was molested and abused as a child.

Precisely my point, we are solely responsible for our actions and how we feel, we can only do something about it now in the present, but it helps to understand why we felt that way in the first place. If you read my other post, I spoke of personal responsibility when I said a child initially choosing to put up walls against the same sex parent for whatever reason.

I’ve always said that we are personally responsible for our actions. I don’t think we choose initially our feelings to be attracted to the same sex. You didn’t wake up one morning and say I’m going to be in a rage all day. You did something about it which is what I have always tried to do also. I wouldn’t let myself walk around and continuously feel that way, I would strengthen myself in other ways. Like getting enough sleep, make new friends, pray, go to conferences, support groups, etc. Because it’s really about need. What am I neglecting in my own life that brings about the “need” for looking for love from a mother figure, etc.

If the feelings crop up, as they do on occasion, I don’t beat myself up for having them. And I try not to spend the next half hour thinking about it. I know what I need to do, spend more time with God, etc. Like the above poster said, I think, oh that’s just blank acting up. I don’t get bent out of shape about it, I confess it and start again.

 

[Lynxdk]

Very true. The laws are shifting. But this debate is not strictly about whether or not the laws are shifting, but whether or not a Christian culture has a right to impose their beliefs on the rest of society. The answer to that is obviously “yes.”

So… since you would do unto others as you would have them do unto you, it’s ok then if I impose my beliefs on you, by the same rules you play by.

 

[PEPCIS]

They are BOTH sins, but one is more easily repented of than the other. The thought is still subject to your control. It doesn’t mean that you don’t or won’t ever feel or think about such things.
KawaitaSakebi;5208445:

If I may stop lurking and drop my two cents in…I think you and Ladybri are closer to agreement than you think.

Thank you for your interjection. Yes, I agree with you that we are very close in our understanding, but I think that we are just wording it differently based upon how we express the same understanding.
Kawaita:

Thoughts definitely CAN be sins, but only if they’re consciously chosen. As I saw it once (paraphrased): “If you’re going along and a sexual thought pops into your head, what do you do? Do you say ‘ok, I’m a sexual being’ and go on with your day, or do you say ‘wow, that feels good’ and think about it for the next half hour?”

Yes, I certainly can agree with that statement - to an extent. Our minds operate the way that they do because WE ALLOW them to operate that way. Our minds belong to us and our will. Our thoughts are subject to our will and desires.

So, let’s say that we do differentiate between those thoughts which “pop” into our heads seemingly unexpected, and those thoughts which we entertain and spend time in consideration of. I would say that both of those are sinful, and that each of them are worthy of forgiveness, but that it depends on how you handle those thoughts as to how they would express themselves in your lives.

For example, in the first instance you have a thought which pops into your head, or perhaps a nice looking man walks by you. Your initial thought might be “Hmmmm, what a hunk, I wonder what it would be like to…” Those thoughts must immediately be captured.

The Bible says that “He that has no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls.” (Proverbs 25:28) Cities without walls are easily captured. You must build spiritual walls around you to protect you from such thoughts, or you will likewise be open to capture by the Devil’s wiles. And then we WILL be judged for your thoughts, because we know that God is able to do so (…“and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.” - Hebrews 4:12)

In order to be a (wo)man who can control and rule over his/her own spirit, we MUST gain control over our thought life. We do this by CAPTURING those thoughts, and putting them under Christ. He then will direct all our thoughts.

Such things are not impossible, otherwise Paul would not have instructed us to do those things:

“We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ.” (2 Corinthians 10:5)

“Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable–if anything is excellent or admirable think about such things.” (Phil. 4:8)

"Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.” (Jas 4:8)
Kawaita:

So the ‘attraction’ that Ladybri is talking about is the pop-into-your-head kind, while you’re talking about something deliberately thought about and enjoyed. Have I read either of you wrong? If so, would you mind defining your terms?

I am saying that even Ladybri’s “pop-into-your-head” kind of thought must be brought quickly under control. This is seen by God (who is a discerner of our thoughts and intents) as being desirous to bring such thoughts into submission to His will. Not only does God quickly forgive us for those thoughts, but doing this helps us to more quickly gain control of those thoughts the next time that we might have an opportunity to think them.

We are just as responsible for those “pop-into-your-head” kind of thoughts, because ALL THOUGHTS BEGIN this way. When they become thoughts that are entertained, we are now DELIBERATELY AND ACTIVELY engaging in sin, and these sins we will be held accountable for. It is these types of sins that I am talking about that take us and mold us by the Devil’s hand, into rapists, murderers, liars, homosexuals, etc, etc.

I hope this helps.

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

Very true. The laws are shifting. But this debate is not strictly about whether or not the laws are shifting, but whether or not a Christian culture has a right to impose their beliefs on the rest of society. The answer to that is obviously “yes.”

I disagree, and so does the First Amendment:Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Well, it’s nice to see that a Brit can quote something that he, himself, lacks - a Constitution. Brit’s, it has been my experience, cannot fathom the thinking process of an American, because it is steeped in Constitutionalism. The lack of a protecting document in GB gives you no basis for conceiving of what those freedoms mean to the American.

The First Amendment to the Constitution has been ravished by liberals, and it is only natural that someone who is extra-Constitutional would adopt the same thoughts as the American liberal, because HE TOO IS EXTRA-CONSTITUTIONAL in his thoughts. The Liberal’s only means at controlling the people by government is to rid us of the Constitution. So he works his whole life to destroy that document.

That is why you see them work so feverishly against the 1st and 2nd amendments. Those are the foundational amendments that work to protect all amendments, and the very Constitution itself. Without free speech, you cannot speak out against the government, and without the right to bear arms, you cannot take back what the government takes from you.

Having said that, I’ll tell you that the 1st amendment does not mean that Church cannot influence state. It says that State cannot collude with the Church to control the citizens. The citizens alone are the arbiters of what laws should be passed, and the Constitution is the document that they have chosen as the arbiter of those laws, with the Supreme Court acting as the arbitration panel.

The 1st amendment was written at a time when all the states had state religions, or expressions of God in their Constitutions. So it obviously was not meant to put all of those state religions out of business, or to expunge all of those religious sentiments from the several state constitutions.

rossum:

The laws of the US are decided by the procedures laid down in the Constitution. They are not decided on the basis of what is, or what is not, Christian morality.

That statement makes no sense. It is ILLOGICAL. The laws of the US are brought about by DEMOCRATIC procedures, which are governed by REPUBLICAN rules. We are a REPUBLIC, not a democracy. GB is a Democracy, not a republic.

In the US, we are a Christian nation, despite what Obama has stated in complete ignorance. From the outset, our nation favored Christianity, and Christian laws and ideals.

rossum:

The abortion laws currently in place do not conform to Christian morality yet they are still valid laws.

I’ve heard some knuckleheads tell me that Hitler was Christian, and that Germany was a Christian nation, yet they passed laws that allowed the extermination of millions. Those laws were “valid” as well.

rossum:

Similarly the law on gay marriage is being changed by constitutional methods and may not be consistent with Christian morality either.

Of course they are not consistent with Christian morality. Neither is divorce, yet there are many laws which facilitate divorce, instead of hindering it.

rossum:

A majority does not have absolute power under the US Consitition, there are protections for minorities built in.

There are limits to what is protected. Only NATURAL rights are protected. Not UNNATURAL.

 

[PEPCIS]

How can you control how you feel?

Please see my other post that I hope explains how you can control how you feel - by placing every thought into submission to Christ.

rinnie:

Lets do this another way, you come in and say to me boy did you get fat. You hurt my feelings. How can I control that. I feel hurt, How can I control that hurt at the moment. I am sorry I can’t.

I agree. But you can condition yourself to feel less hurt. Some people are more sensitive than others. It doesn’t necessarily mean they have no feelings, but that they are conditioned to not let those things bother them. That’s what I mean when I say that you can control your thoughts.

You must bring your thoughts into subjection, and you do that by training your feelings to react appropriately to the stimuli around you, instead of reacting in ways that result in sin.

We are accustomed to reacting on feelings so easily, that it only seems natural that we can’t have greater control on our feelings. But we can.

But I do agree with you that it is difficult to control how we feel. Just not impossible. But as you said, we definitely can control how we react to our feelings.

Good post, rinnie!

 

[PEPCIS]

They say if you change your thoughts, you can change how you feel. I believe this works, but it is hard to do… however, with practice… I just came out of cognitive therapy for OCD, basically it says if you change your thoughts, you can change the behavior, and it does work but you have to keep doing it. I think what you said, Pepcis, if you give into your desires, they get stronger, but if you spend more time with God, going to Adoration and attending Mass, reading His word, etc., you become more able to stay pure in your heart.

Excellent points. I once saw a Christian apologist who explained it almost exactly like that. That’s all I’m saying. I do agree with you and rinnie that there are initial thoughts that seem to pop into the air, but we CAN condition and train ourselves to eliminate, or at least to limit these thoughts.

Please don’t think that I do that. I don’t. I am pretty miserable at it, and if you cut me off in traffic, you might see what I’m talking about.

But, I still try and ask for forgiveness. You could probably see what I’m talking about if you saw how many times I asked God for forgiveness for what I feel and think about someone.

 

[PEPCIS]

So… since you would do unto others as you would have them do unto you, it’s ok then if I impose my beliefs on you, by the same rules you play by.

Hi Lynx. Yes, it’s unfortunate that America has truly lost her moral footing, and that you could impose your immoral choices upon me by law. Most likely, you are doing it by judicial fiat. But that’s another story…

 

[Lynxdk]

Hi Lynx. Yes, it’s unfortunate that America has truly lost her moral footing, and that you could impose your immoral choices upon me by law. Most likely, you are doing it by judicial fiat. But that’s another story…

I wasn’t talking about forcing my will on you by law, but since you brought it up… how is it any different when ~you~ do that to ~me~? Force me to behave the way ~you~ want me to by making laws about what’s right and wrong? Because I would still have to ask myself, since you’re ~not~ God… what if you’re wrong?

Because I would bet dollars to donuts that you’re no different from me, really, in this sense, and have and make plenty of immoral choices all on your own, with no help or hindrance from me. Who are you to judge anyone other than yourself?

 

[rinnie]

I think I see what you are saying now! I think we are all on the same page. More or less you are saying if you know that certain people or places put you into sin, you can stay away for them. But the biggest thing I think we all agree on is sin exists, and we all have our weakness, and we do not deny they exist, we must control them. And try to do our best to avoid at all costs possible to stay away from temptation.

And I agree Good post by all. It gets us thinking and understanding other’s more and makes us more compassionate towards others. And the best thing we can do for anyone who has this cross to bare is pray for them that they can carry that cross. But to not hate or hurt them. Love them and pray for extra strength from God. It would have to be hell!

 

[Lynxdk]

Excellent points. I once saw a Christian apologist who explained it almost exactly like that. That’s all I’m saying. I do agree with you and rinnie that there are initial thoughts that seem to pop into the air, but we CAN condition and train ourselves to eliminate, or at least to limit these thoughts.

Please don’t think that I do that. I don’t. I am pretty miserable at it, and if you cut me off in traffic, you might see what I’m talking about.

But, I still try and ask for forgiveness. You could probably see what I’m talking about if you saw how many times I asked God for forgiveness for what I feel and think about someone.

me too =)

I run into a lot of problems though, when people tell me I’m doing something wrong, much like others, I get defensive and much less likely to listen to them when all I hear is criticism, and more likely to keep doing things my own way just to spite them in some cases… That’s really all you’ll end up getting, over and over, everytime you try to tell some group that they are wrong for being the way they are, even if you think you’re quite right…

Telling someone it’s wrong to get a divorce, is a good example, because you could be telling someone that’s trying to escape being raped and beaten by thier spouse that God condones those things… I’m fairly sure that’s not what’s meant by it, but that’s how it ends up getting taken… It’s much easier to point out the sins that are seen, ignoring the ones hidden behind closed doors because people are too afraid and ashamed to talk about them, so that sort of thing only serves to hide things further, and cause more of a mess…

So… why punish people for being gay by not allowing them the same freedoms to make choices for themselves, and exist as themselves, using the free will God gave them when by doing so you end up judging them and chasing them ~away~ from God rather than ~to~ him? Not your intentions, I’m sure, but that’s what happens.

and I’m not saying ~you~ specifically, just a general question because of the nature of this thread…