The Jesuits and their charism?

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By “flirting” with heresy, they also discovered much that could help the Church. It is one thing to check it out and another to become a heretic. The Jesuits don’t have any more heretics than any other order does.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
But weren’t they the order that fought against heresies? From what I have been reading, they were an order to be feared, by any heretic, so much were they against fighting heresy.

So I don’t understand the “flirting with heresy” part.
 
Catholics can be very mean to their own. The attack of the world on the Catholic Church is probably more the fault of the Catholic man and woman, than of the non-Catholic. Catholics will trash any Catholic individual or organization who either makes a mistake or who appears to make a mistake.
Sadly, so very true. 😦
 
But weren’t they the order that fought against heresies? From what I have been reading, they were an order to be feared, by any heretic, so much were they against fighting heresy.

So I don’t understand the “flirting with heresy” part.
Newsman said that they flirt with heresy. I was just using those words to explain that what to many appears to be flirting with heresy, to others it’s an academic exercise.

Again . . . I always insist on intellectual honesty. The good side is that the Jesuits have never been afraid to listen to heresy and to think about. They often found out that what many people call heresy was not really heresy, but simply very poor wording or at times very deliberate provocation. There were then and are still now, people inside the Church who are so angry that when they lose it, they say things in a very poor way and it sounds worse than what they mean. There are others who are so angry that they say what they don’t mean in order to hurt back those whom they believe have hurt them. We see this among Trads and among liberal extremes too, especially Catholic gays and many Catholic women. They’re not heretics, but they are so angry that they will say what they know will get a rise out of the Church. The Jesuits have been very good at unmasking this and helping people get through it.

The bad side is that some of them have adopted a mistaken form of compassion. But that’s not Jesuits alone. A mistaken form of compassion when when you identify with the victim to the point that you too start lashing out and now you’re the one in error.

There was a wonderful study done on people who have been hostages. It is very common for a person who has been a hostage for a long time to develop empathy with his captor.

There have been many people, not just Jesuits who have been exposed to people who have been hurt by Catholics or hurt by systems. The clergy, religious and lay missionaries have developed such empathy with those who are hurt that they lash out and in doing so, they fall into error.

You can never correct error with hostility, eventually, you will fall into deeper error. The best way to correct error is as Mother Teresa said, doing the opposite.

It is also important to note that the story of the Jesuits has been as deformed as the story of the Franciscans. Francis sent his brothers and sisters to live as poor men and women. Now everyone thinks that Franciscans were founded to serve the poor. Not true. They were founded to save their souls by obeying. Ignatius sent his sons to educated the clergy so that the clergy would deal with heresy in their parishes. Now everyone thinks that Ignatius sent his sons to fight heretics. Not true. They were founded to do whatever it took to promote the greater glory and honor of God. Education and preaching is their way of doing it.

I always have to laugh at these things that people say about religious orders and religious congregations, because much of it is assumption. What makes me laugh is that these assumptions prove my theory. Here it goes. If you do something well once, you will be asked to do it again. If you do it well twice, it becomes your job description.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I read some some of their history and they were a remarkable group, on fire for God. Their suppression was horrible and very sad.

Is that why nowadays they have the reputation of not really following Church teaching? This is the first thing I heard about the Jesuits. When I read their history I was in awe.
Some of the most obviously questionable theologians arose amongst them.

What people don’t see is that some of the stauchest defenders of the traditions of the Church are ALSO Jesuits.

Just as the Jesuits historically persecuted the Ukrainian and Ruthenian Catholics, so now do they run the Russicum, which is dedicated to preserving the Slavic Byzantine Churches.

Just as a Jesuit was the missionary killing newly baptized infants to prevent their sinning, so also was it a Jesuit who made certain he was tried for his crimes.

The thing is, Jesuit-run institutions have become noted for a certain stripe of political liberalism, and religious and cultural relativism… but it’s not all, just a few key ones. The sad part is that they have been, in the past, the symbolic bastions of the Church and lead people to presume the Jesuits there are representative of the Order.
 
mes.

The thing is, Jesuit-run institutions have become noted for a certain stripe of political liberalism, and religious and cultural relativism… but it’s not all, just a few key ones.
That’s what I have heard.

Coincidentally, I just watched “the Rite” and there was a discussion about the exorcist (Anthony Hopkins) and there was a line that went something like, “He’s a Jesuit. He uses less Orthodox methods.”

I chuckled at that.
 
One always has to be very careful when speaking about a religious community. A good rule of thumb is to treat all religious communities as you would any biological family. If John Doe is a looser, I don’t go around saying that the Doe Family is a family of losers. That’s inappropriate and a generalization. Even if there were many losers in the Doe family, the truth is that I don’t know the entire family, nor do I know their circumstance. I only know the little that I see.

When I was a novice, our novice master trained us in the virtue of discretion. We would be severely punished, if we made indiscreet comments about anyone or any group of people, to the point that we all learned never to make comments about anything or anyone without qualifying that we did not know what we were talking about.

It sounds crazy, to say, “I’m going to say something about the Jesuits, but I should warn you that I don’t really know what I’m talking about.” In reality it’s not crazy at all. Do I know 20,000 Jesuits? Over the past 500 years there have been an average 20,000 Jesuits per century, that’s about 200,000 Jesuits. Do I know 200,000 Jesuits? Am I a Jesuit? Do I live with them? Have I studied their constitutions? Have I ever attended a provincial chapter or a general congregation of their order? Do I understand how their infrastructure works? Since the answer to most of these questions is a resounding, “NO.” Then it is not crazy to begin with a disclaimer.

I can say that I have heard this or that. That’s not such a good idea either, because not everything that I hear is true. Catholics love to gossip about their priests and religious. A lot of what is repeated is not true or starts with a truth and picks up mass like a snowball.

I have never understood the mindset of people who tell tales. We want vocations, but we badmouth our clergy and religious where our younger generation can hear us. How does that work? We believe in Original Sin, forget that we too are sinners, and remember everyone else’s sins. How does that work? We claim to be the one true Church, but we repeat a lot of untruths about each other. How does that work?

Having grown up in a Jewish home, to me this was the most aggravating part of being Catholic. In a devout Jewish family, we did not badmouth the Rabbis. We protected Jews from being hurt and ridiculed by others. Behind closed doors, Jews can go at each other like the best of them. Trust me. Rabbis get hired and fired more frequently than you change the oil in your car, sometimes for good reasons and sometimes for ridiculous reasons. However, we did not let the rest of the world in on it. We felt about our congregations the same way that we feel about our families.

Catholics don’t do this too well. When we find a group that has a few warts, we tell the world that they have leprosy. Then we wonder why the world takes crack shots at the Church. It seems that these days, the Jesuits are the popular target for Catholics. That’s unfortunate.

They have problems like every family has problems. However, I wouldn’t pull your family’s good name apart on the internet, so I will not do it to the Jesuit family either. At the end of the day, I believe that God loves them and that he has given them to the Church as a gift. Fraternal correction can be just as effective without publicity.

Despite their problems, most of which are due to their size and their infrastructure, which they cannot change, because it would change their identity, they have produced great saints and have done great work for the Church. In fact, the third man in the defense of the Catholic faith is a Jesuit who serves the Church quietly and humbly. He is the second in command at the Sacred Congregation of the Faith, Archbishop Luis Francisco Ladaria Ferrer S.J.

I sometimes wonder if their infrastructure is the cross that God has given them to bear. If you think about it, it’s a very hard life. They are part of an order, but they don’t have the built-in support systems that the other orders have. Each man has to discipline himself and oversee himself. I can’t do it. I’m glad that I belong to a community where there is a local superior and there is a local community that calls me to accountability once a month at the house chapter and that I’m not allowed to live alone for any extended period of time.

Maybe that’s the reason that they were the last order ever founded. The Church realized that imposing the demands of a religious order with solemn vows on men who are scattered all over the globe and who have to operate as individuals in very demanding situations is very tough on the individual and on the superiors. Observe that all the religious communities founded after the Jesuits are congregations with simple vows, not order with solemn vows.

Those are just my two cents.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Having grown up in a Jewish home, to me this was the most aggravating part of being Catholic. In a devout Jewish family, we did not badmouth the Rabbis. We protected Jews from being hurt and ridiculed by others. Behind closed doors, Jews can go at each other like the best of them. Trust me. Rabbis get hired and fired more frequently than you change the oil in your car, sometimes for good reasons and sometimes for ridiculous reasons. However, we did not let the rest of the world in on it. We felt about our congregations the same way that we feel about our families.
I don’t know enough Catholics in real life to know if Catholics air their business or just discuss things among Catholics.

Sometimes it is easy to forget that there are all sort of eyes reading the posts. It sort of feels like family.

However, even if it is offline, there must be a venue to ask questions.
 
That’s what I have heard.

Coincidentally, I just watched “the Rite” and there was a discussion about the exorcist (Anthony Hopkins) and there was a line that went something like, “He’s a Jesuit. He uses less Orthodox methods.”

I chuckled at that.
That’s a standard joke. Yet . . . if you look at the history of the Church, especially in the mission field, the three amigos have always been the Jesuits, Franciscans and Dominicans. Together, they have formed incredible mission teams.

The Jesuits go out and preach; the Dominicans page through Aquinas for a reference, while the Franciscans take up a collection. :rolleyes:

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Thanks Brother for all of the wonderful info on the Jesuits! My daughter was very fortunate to be able to attend a wonderful Jesuit university for her BA degree and I attend the only Jesuit Parish north of San Francisco! We have an outstanding and award winning elementary school, a truly college prep boys high school and a very large parish. Our current pastor was dean of one of the colleges in Rome! Our priests are awesome - two are between the ages of 65 and 70 and have held positions from college professors to pastors, we have one in his early forties who just took his final-final vows last year, and our pastor is:thumbsup: around sixty. They all give the best homilies you can imagine - when you leave mass you are still thinking about how you can better live your life like Christ. Three years ago the Jesuits started a co-ed high school in our city for students who could not afford the $20,000 tuition at the other Catholic schools. When I retire, I plan on volunteering to work with the students at this wonderful school; after 33 years of teaching high school, I think the Lord has provided me with a wonderful opportunity to serve!!
 
I don’t know enough Catholics in real life to know if Catholics air their business or just discuss things among Catholics.
Outside of the internet and the press, most Catholics are rather demure people.
Sometimes it is easy to forget that there are all sort of eyes reading the posts. It sort of feels like family.
We have to be careful with this. The world of cyberspace can be very alluring, to the point that we think that we’re dealing with people in real time and without an audience.
However, even if it is offline, there must be a venue to ask questions.
There are plenty, but all behind closed doors.

Did you get to watch the Franciscan on EWTN for Thanksgiving? They had a Thanksgiving special. The theme was “fidelity to community.”

The Superior of the friars at EWTN explained it very well. He said and I’ll paraphrase. St. Francis taught the Church a great lesson that Catholics refuse to learn, not because Francis was wrong, but because most Catholics are too arrogant to admit a good idea when they hear it.

He went on to explain how Francis taught the brothers by word and example. There were times when he would tear them apart, if they did something wrong. However, it was never done in public. It was always behind closed doors.

The second lesson that he taught the brothers was to stand between anyone and his brothers when an outsider tried to criticized his brothers, even if they were saying the same thing that he had told them in private. He was very conscious about the rights of family. He would tear anyone apart who attacked his brothers.

The third lesson was about the Church. He pointed out how we will never know what men like Francis every thought of the Church’s warts, because they never made any comments in public and they would yank your head off if you did.

The message is that inside a family, correction is necessary and appropriate. Outside of the family, it’s not correction, it’s hostility and antagonism.

He went on to explain how to this day, Franciscans and other religious families, not just us, have maintained this practice. When a priest, religious or layman violates this rule of privacy and the rights of family, it becomes a sin of scandal. In real brotherhood, we don’t hurt our family’s good name and we don’t ignore the wrongs. We deal with the wrong through discreet and firm fraternal correction, but we protect our family members from outside attackers.

The interviewer asked him more questions about this and he answered that the principle upon which EWTN had been founded was this principle of St. Francis, to correct the wrongs in the Church while protecting her good name and showcasing her riches.

The point is that we use private situations for such questions and rebukes. These can be meetings, our spiritual director, trusted friends who are not out just to gossip, and when the opportunity presents itself, even workshops for Catholics.

My rule of thumb is “Treat every family as you want your family to be treated.”

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Thanks Brother for all of the wonderful info on the Jesuits! My daughter was very fortunate to be able to attend a wonderful Jesuit university for her BA degree and I attend the only Jesuit Parish north of San Francisco! We have an outstanding and award winning elementary school, a truly college prep boys high school and a very large parish. Our current pastor was dean of one of the colleges in Rome! Our priests are awesome - two are between the ages of 65 and 70 and have held positions from college professors to pastors, we have one in his early forties who just took his final-final vows last year, and our pastor is:thumbsup: around sixty. They all give the best homilies you can imagine - when you leave mass you are still thinking about how you can better live your life like Christ. Three years ago the Jesuits started a co-ed high school in our city for students who could not afford the $20,000 tuition at the other Catholic schools. When I retire, I plan on volunteering to work with the students at this wonderful school; after 33 years of teaching high school, I think the Lord has provided me with a wonderful opportunity to serve!!
It’s good to hear so many good testimonies about them. Too often, we only hear the bad stuff.

In a way it reminds me of parenting. Children will always remind us of our faults.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
The point is that we use private situations for such questions and rebukes. These can be meetings, our spiritual director, trusted friends who are not out just to gossip, and when the opportunity presents itself, even workshops for Catholics.

My rule of thumb is “Treat every family as you want your family to be treated.”

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
I hope you understand my point in that some of us don’t have access to fraternal families or even have any real relationships with members of our parishes. So if you ask one person behind closed doors, you will get one opinion, which may be biased. If you ask 200 people, you will get more of a variety of opinions, which means you might get closer to the truth.

But I also get your point. I will try to remember that in the future.
 
I have not read through this thread completely yet but I must offer a word of caution.
I notice that they take up a vow of poverty, but one look into the campus and their “lifestyle” at my campus shows otherwise.
One can not make such a judgment.

First, it shows a misunderstanding of the Vow of Poverty and second no one really has a right to make this judgment.
 
I hope you understand my point in that some of us don’t have access to fraternal families or even have any real relationships with members of our parishes. So if you ask one person behind closed doors, you will get one opinion, which may be biased. If you ask 200 people, you will get more of a variety of opinions, which means you might get closer to the truth.

But I also get your point. I will try to remember that in the future.
Do you belong to any parish ministries or Catholic organizations? That may help and they’re fun too.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Do you belong to any parish ministries or Catholic organizations? That may help and they’re fun too.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
There aren’t so many ministries at a small parish. I’m still transitioning from Protestant Church life to Catholic Church life, so I guess it will take time. But that’s another topic. 🙂
 
More on the Jesuits…

At the center of Jesuit philosophy is the phrase, “Magis,” that means “the more.” It is taken from “Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam”, a latin phrase that means “For the Greater Glory of God.”

from wikipedia:
Magis refers to the philosophy of doing more, for Christ, and therefore for others. It is an expression of an aspiration and inspiration. It relates to forming the ideal society centered around Jesus Christ.
The roots of the phrase are ascribed to St. Ignatius’ exercise of doing more for God. He would encourage people around him during his time by asking: "What have I done for God? What am I doing for God? and What MORE can I do for Him?"
 
More on the Jesuits…

At the center of Jesuit philosophy is the phrase, “Magis,” that means “the more.” It is taken from “Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam”, a latin phrase that means “For the Greater Glory of God.”

from wikipedia:
If I were to have to answer the question, "What is the Jesuit Rule? I would probably say that the Jesuit Rule can be extrapolated through the Spiritual Exercises with questions such as these. The exercises are the one part of Ignatius which have not changed much since the 16the century.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :christmastree1:
 
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