The Jewish Law and its relevancy

[DeProfundis1]

My question is about the Jewish Law and its relevancy to everyone who believes in God. We see in the gospels that Jesus says the Laws of the Old Testament still stand, until the day when EVERYTHING is fulfilled, which hasn’t come to be. However, Paul and other early Christians seem to say that the Law does not apply anymore. Below I have posted several verses on the Law from the NT, I know they are long! How can we reconcile these? Jesus says the law stands, yet Paul says he is no longer under the law.

Mattew 23:1-3 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

Matthew 5:17-20 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

1 Corinthians 9:20-21 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.

Acts 24:14
“I (Paul) believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets,”

Romans 4:14-15
For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

Romans 5:20
The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase.

 

[George_Stegmeir]

You are seriously mistaken. Everything was fulfilled with the Crucifixion, Resurection, and Ascention of Christ.
You are confusing that passage with the Second Coming.
I strongly suggest you consult a priest about the meaning and intent of Holy Scripture before misinterpreting it on the internet.

 

[ChrisCath]

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 5:17-20[/BIBLEDRB]

Our Lord fulfilled the law three several ways:

1. By his obedience to the prescribed rites; therefore he says, it behooves us to fulfill all justice: and who shall accuse me of sin?
2. He observes the law, not only by his own observance of it, but likewise by enabling us to fulfill it. It was the wish of the law to make man just, but found itself too weak; Christ therefore came justifying man, and accomplished the will of the law.
3. He fulfilled the law, by reducing all the precepts of the old law to a more strict and powerful morality.

~St. Chrysostom. Hom. xvi.

Jesus clarified the Law and upgraded it.

 

[DeProfundis1]

You are seriously mistaken. Everything was fulfilled with the Crucifixion, Resurection, and Ascention of Christ.
You are confusing that passage with the Second Coming.
I strongly suggest you consult a priest about the meaning and intent of Holy Scripture before misinterpreting it on the internet.

I don’t believe heaven and earth have disappeared, "For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

He didn’t say the law would be gone immediately, he said in the end it would. He has not gathered the elect, so all is not accomplished.

 

[George_Stegmeir]

De Profundis 1: I refuse to debate you because it is pointless. I will ask one question. Based on your remarks in other threads, your hobby is to argue religion, mostly by mis-interpreting scripture, which I may add, is the hall mark of many protestant evangelical sects.
I will, however, ask one question: What do you call the Catholic Church, if not the elect? This is something I learned from the nuns in parochial school when I was a boy.

 

[adrift]

I don’t believe heaven and earth have disappeared, "For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law** until everything is accomplished.**He didn’t say the law would be gone immediately, he said in the end it would. He has not gathered the elect, so all is not accomplished.

What did Jesus say just before this?

Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said,** It is finished**: and he bowed his head, and gave up his spirit

Jesus came to fulfill and He did all is finished. Point out to me that Jesus said in the end it would be gone? Please point out to me that Jesus must gather the elect.

 

[DeProfundis1]

De Profundis 1: I refuse to debate you because it is pointless. I will ask one question. Based on your remarks in other threads, your hobby is to argue religion, mostly by mis-interpreting scripture, which I may add, is the hall mark of many protestant evangelical sects.
I will, however, ask one question: What do you call the Catholic Church, if not the elect? This is something I learned from the nuns in parochial school when I was a boy.

Well I’m sorry you do not want to argue something that is a completely valid argument based on other references in scripture. I will answer the question you have asked. Sure, those in the Catholic Church can be the elect, but they have not been gathered yet.

And adrift, this should cover your question as well.

Mark 13:26-27

“At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

Matthew 24:30-31

“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Luke 17:35-37

Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” “Where, Lord?” they asked. He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”

Matthew 24:26-28

“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

So, the elect who are still alive are to be gathered into the sky to meet the dead in Christ who all have risen.

Now I will ask a question, did Jesus say, “the Law is finished”? No. Based on what he told all would need to happen, he obviously could have been speaking of his lifes suffering.

adrift:

Jesus came to fulfill and He did all is finished. Point out to me that Jesus said in the end it would be gone?

I believe Jesus did say in the absolute end the Law, then would be gone,

Matthew 5:17-19

“Do not think that I have come to** abolish the Law **or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Websters Dictionary definition of abolish, “to end the observance or effect of”
Websters Dictionary definition of disappear, “to cease to be”

(heavens refering to the sky)

Mark 13:24-25

“But in those days, following that distress, “‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.

 

[adrift]

adrift:

I believe Jesus did say in the absolute end the Law, then would be gone, .

But it isn’t what Jesus said.

Matthew 5:17-19

“Do not think that I have come to** abolish the Law **or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven…

Your bolding is to prove your point but you ignore what I have bolded and underlined. Jesus says that He came to fulfil the Old Testament. On the Cross Jesus say that He has fulfilled it. The Old Law passed at that time and the New came into place.
You misunderstood what Scripture I was asking you for. I wasn’t asking for scripture that the heaven and earth will pass away or proof that Jesus will come back. I am asking for proof that Jesus did not fulfill the Law.

 

[DeProfundis1]

But it isn’t what Jesus said.

Matthew 5:17-19

Your bolding is to prove your point but you ignore what I have bolded and underlined. Jesus says that He came to fulfil the Old Testament. On the Cross Jesus say that He has fulfilled it. The Old Law passed at that time and the New came into place.
You misunderstood what Scripture I was asking you for. I wasn’t asking for scripture that the heaven and earth will pass away or proof that Jesus will come back. I am asking for proof that Jesus did not fulfill the Law.

I think we can both agree the the earth and sky have not disappeared yet, Jesus idicates that the Law given to them by God will stand till that happens. He did not come to abolish the Old Testament Law either. I mean he says it plainly that those who don’t teach the Law will be considered the least in the kingdom of heaven. He says over and over that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the kingdom, and the Laws are from God.

 

[fred_conty]

There is the Old Testiment, with old testiment laws in the books of Deuteronomy and Leviticus, for the old chosen people. Laws such as those in purification rites, the washings, and those of clean and unclean food, and all sorts of other O.T. laws.

There is the New Testiment, with new testiment laws in the New Testiment books, for the new chosen people. Laws such as St. Paul mentioned in his letters.

When Jesus died, that was the end of all of those old rites in the old law. And when Jesus said that all would be fulfilled and not a letter could be forgotten, it wasn’t forgotten and was fulfilled in his death which started the New Law.

The old covenant was circumcision bringing a person into the body of the chosen Jewish people under the old law and establishing an agreement to observe the Old Covenant with God.

The new covenant was baptism bringing a person into the body of the chosen Christian people under the new law and establishing an agreement to observe the new covenant with God.

Paul says, that the old law is unnessary, circumcision, and the new law now makes a person part of the new chosen people,baptism.

If this were not true, then we would be bound to all the old laws, such as washing our bodies after doing certain things, eating certain foods and avoiding others, sacrificing doves or oxen according to our financial being, and so on. Clearly, in the New Covenant with God, these things are unnecessary and were abrogated with the comming of the New Law which Jesus Christ established with his death.

Just a few thoughts.

 

[DeProfundis1]

There is the Old Testiment, with old testiment laws in the books of Deuteronomy and Leviticus, for the old chosen people. Laws such as those in purification rites, the washings, and those of clean and unclean food, and all sorts of other O.T. laws.

There is the New Testiment, with new testiment laws in the New Testiment books, for the new chosen people. Laws such as St. Paul mentioned in his letters.

When Jesus died, that was the end of all of those old rites in the old law. And when Jesus said that all would be fulfilled and not a letter could be forgotten, it wasn’t forgotten and was fulfilled in his death which started the New Law.

The old covenant was circumcision bringing a person into the body of the chosen Jewish people under the old law and establishing an agreement to observe the Old Covenant with God.

The new covenant was baptism bringing a person into the body of the chosen Christian people under the new law and establishing an agreement to observe the new covenant with God.

Paul says, that the old law is unnessary, circumcision, and the new law now makes a person part of the new chosen people,baptism.

If this were not true, then we would be bound to all the old laws, such as washing our bodies after doing certain things, eating certain foods and avoiding others, sacrificing doves or oxen according to our financial being, and so on. Clearly, in the New Covenant with God, these things are unnecessary and were abrogated with the comming of the New Law which Jesus Christ established with his death.

Just a few thoughts.

I just don’t know abotu that, because God’s righteousness does not change. If he gave out a law, he would not change his mind and make it unrighteous to follow. Those who follow the law will not be punished for it.

While we don’t have the power to make ourselves righteous, because it ultimately comes from God, but we can work towards it in action, actions that God gave us in the law.

In Ezekiel 18:4-9, we see that God will save those that strive for righteousness. Later on in this chapter it becomes strickingly similar to Matthew 25:35-36, "For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

Jesus says if you do not do these things then you cannot enter the Kingdom of God. So what has changed? Even with the death of Christ you must act to do the will of the Father in order to be justified. So really, the “Old” Law still stands. It was only by the words outside the gospels that we see a want to break from them.

Ezekiel 18:4-9
Behold, all souls are Mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is Mine; the soul that sinneth, it shall die. But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right, and hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour’s wife, neither hath come near to a woman in her impurity; and hath not wronged any, but hath restored his pledge for a debt, hath taken nought by robbery, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment; he that hath not given forth upon interest, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true justice between man and man,
hath walked in My statutes, and hath kept Mine ordinances, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.

Isaiah 43:25
“I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more."

God does not change his mind in righteousness, what he says is true and eternal. He forgave sins in the past through penance of the people, which we are still instructed to do. So what has really changed?

 

[TimothyH]

Fred is on it. It’s about the covenant.

Israelites before Jesus live under the laws of the Old Covenant. Christians live under the law of the new covenant.

***He said to him, “You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment. The second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.” *(Matthew 22:37-40)

The law of the new covenant - Love - contains all the laws of the old covenant and more. If you live the law of love of the new covenant then you automatically fulfill the requirements of both old and new covenants.

-Tim-

 

[fred_conty]

I just don’t know abotu that, because God’s righteousness does not change. If he gave out a law, he would not change his mind and make it unrighteous to follow. Those who follow the law will not be punished for it.

While we don’t have the power to make ourselves righteous, because it ultimately comes from God, but we can work towards it in action, actions that God gave us in the law.

In Ezekiel 18:4-9, we see that God will save those that strive for righteousness. Later on in this chapter it becomes strickingly similar to Matthew 25:35-36, "For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

Jesus says if you do not do these things then you cannot enter the Kingdom of God. So what has changed? Even with the death of Christ you must act to do the will of the Father in order to be justified. So really, the “Old” Law still stands. It was only by the words outside the gospels that we see a want to break from them.

Ezekiel 18:4-9
Behold, all souls are Mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is Mine; the soul that sinneth, it shall die. But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right, and hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour’s wife, neither hath come near to a woman in her impurity; and hath not wronged any, but hath restored his pledge for a debt, hath taken nought by robbery, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment; he that hath not given forth upon interest, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true justice between man and man,
hath walked in My statutes, and hath kept Mine ordinances, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.

Isaiah 43:25
“I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more."

God does not change his mind in righteousness, what he says is true and eternal. He forgave sins in the past through penance of the people, which we are still instructed to do. So what has really changed?

If christians are all bound to all the old testiment laws, then all the christian men must be circumcised or else…

If christians are all bound to all the old testiment laws, than all the christian women must be purified according to the old law after their monthly period or else…

I would offer a suggestion. Read St. Paul’s letters again keeping in mind that there is a distinction between laws in the old and new. See if that dosen’t make more sense to you.

Now it is true that there is some overlapping of laws. For example adultery. This is in both the old and new. However the treatment of it is quite different.
Theift is in both laws.

But the new is what we are now obliged to do, and the old for the most part is obsolete for us.

A thought.

 

[Uzziah1]

Old Testament rituals foreshadow Jesus Christ. Examples: In Bible symbolism, “Door” = “Christ.” So, when you see the Passover ritual of the Hebrews splattering the blood of the Paschal Lamb with a sprig of hyssop, you are actually looking at a picture of Jesus’ suffering by scourging purchasing our salvation from death at the end of time.

 

[adrift]

I think we can both agree the the earth and sky have not disappeared yet, Jesus idicates that the Law given to them by God will stand till that happens. .

No that is not what Jesus said. Jesus said until He fulfilled why He came it would stand.

He did not come to abolish the Old Testament Law either. I mean he says it plainly that those who don’t teach the Law will be considered the least in the kingdom of heaven. He says over and over that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the kingdom, and the Laws are from God

You can’t just take part of what Jesus said you have to take it in context. You are taking it out of context. Jesus said that He came to fulfill and at that time of fulfilment the old law ended. Jesus said it was finished. Finishes means that Jesus fulfilled the Old Testment.
Just out of curiosity what do you mean by “Law”?

 

[DeProfundis1]

No that is not what Jesus said. Jesus said until He fulfilled why He came it would stand.

You can’t just take part of what Jesus said you have to take it in context. You are taking it out of context. Jesus said that He came to fulfill and at that time of fulfilment the old law ended. Jesus said it was finished. Finishes means that Jesus fulfilled the Old Testment.
Just out of curiosity what do you mean by “Law”?

We still have the issue of the elect being gathered and the dead raising and the living to be caught up in the sky with them. That is not fulfilled. Should this not be accomplished? Also, he was fulfilling as in fulfilling the words of the prophets that he should die, not eradicate God’s Law, which he followed and instructed others to follow.

With the Law I am referring to the Tanakh Laws and the Noahide Laws, which cover moral laws, the laws on sin, redemption, salvation, worship of the one God, etc. All the laws that the Jews, Jesus himself, saw as relevant. Some of them overlap a few laws Christians follow, but not many.

In Matthew 28:19-20, Jesus tells his disciples to teach all that he commanded, (which included the Torah Laws). Jesus was doing the will of the Father walking in the Law, should we not do the will of the Father and walk in the Law as well?

“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.”

In Mattew 23:1-2, we see Jesus tells them the importance of the Law.

Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you."

Note he doesn’t say, you won’t have to worry about those laws pretty soon. This is in addition to **Matthew 5:17 **and others. Also, In Deuteronomy 13:1, God says,

“Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it.”

The evidence points to keeping the Law, otherwise we are saying God doesn’t mean what he says. Jesus never instructs to stop all the Laws given by God, only that we should do them and not be hypocritical about them.

 

[fred_conty]

We still have the issue of the elect being gathered and the dead raising and the living to be caught up in the sky with them. That is not fulfilled. Should this not be accomplished? Also, he was fulfilling as in fulfilling the words of the prophets that he should die, not eradicate God’s Law, which he followed and instructed others to follow.

With the Law I am referring to the Tanakh Laws and the Noahide Laws, which cover moral laws, the laws on sin, redemption, salvation, worship of the one God, etc. All the laws that the Jews, Jesus himself, saw as relevant. Some of them overlap a few laws Christians follow, but not many.

In Matthew 28:19-20, Jesus tells his disciples to teach all that he commanded, (which included the Torah Laws). Jesus was doing the will of the Father walking in the Law, should we not do the will of the Father and walk in the Law as well?

“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.”

In Mattew 23:1-2, we see Jesus tells them the importance of the Law.

Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you."

Note he doesn’t say, you won’t have to worry about those laws pretty soon. This is in addition to **Matthew 5:17 **and others. Also, In Deuteronomy 13:1, God says,

“Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it.”

The evidence points to keeping the Law, otherwise we are saying God doesn’t mean what he says. Jesus never instructs to stop all the Laws given by God, only that we should do them and not be hypocritical about them.

Deprofundis1, you said,
“The evidence points to keeping the Law, otherwise we are saying God doesn’t mean what he says. Jesus never instructs to stop all the Laws given by God, only that we should do them and not be hypocritical about them.”

The laws in the O.T. are twofold: the moral, and the other ceremonial and dietery ones.

O.T. moral laws are all found in the new testiment, that is the ten commandments, but they are not numbered and not in any paticular order. So these ethical laws are in both testiments. But the ceremonial and dietery ones are dropped in the N.T.

What you said above I would agree with if you meant by “all the laws” were all the moral laws.

Just a thought. What do you think?

 

[DeProfundis1]

Deprofundis1, you said,
“The evidence points to keeping the Law, otherwise we are saying God doesn’t mean what he says. Jesus never instructs to stop all the Laws given by God, only that we should do them and not be hypocritical about them.”

The laws in the O.T. are twofold: the moral, and the other ceremonial and dietery ones.

O.T. moral laws are all found in the new testiment, that is the ten commandments, but they are not numbered and not in any paticular order. So these ethical laws are in both testiments. But the ceremonial and dietery ones are dropped in the N.T.

What you said above I would agree with if you meant by “all the laws” were all the moral laws.

Just a thought. What do you think?

That is a good point to bring up about moral and dietary law. I now recall Jesus explaining to the pharisees that it is not what you eat that harms you. In **Matthew 15:10-20 **he says,

*Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand. What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them.”

Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?”

He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. Leave them; they are blind guides. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.”

(Here the plants the “Father has not planted will be pulled up”, I assume refers to the laws and customs not from him.)

Peter said, “Explain the parable to us.”

“Are you still so dull?” Jesus asked them. “Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.” *

I do agree with you that Jesus was way more concerned about us being good people by caring for eachother, i.e. high morals. He saw the injustice of following man made tradition and laws which where placed first before helping people. And these same people claimed to be holy and righteous for it. I think Jesus was very critical of such practices. Although I am still wondering about other moral laws that come from the Torah that men did not create that God instructed to do, (that we may not be practicing now.) It’s just a bit confusing, I have to research more.

 

[Phillip31]

Dietary was clarified, but Jesus fulfilled the ceremonial law with his blood. Something that should be considered at the Eucharistic adoration.

 

[Mintaka]

I find this thread amusing.

I just finished filling out my tax form the other week. Amazingly enough, there were tons of human tax laws which didn’t apply to me. They were not abolished from the earth, and yet I did not break them by not following them. They just didn’t apply to me.

Jesus Christ did not abolish the Jewish Law of the Old Covenant. Not a jot nor a tittle will pass away until the end.

But most of the old Law doesn’t apply to those whom Jesus called into the New Covenant. We primarily have to worry about the new stuff, although some of the basic stuff still applies.

Now, if you want to voluntarily send the IRS every possible tax schedule and worksheet, all attached to your return, and if you want to try and get your bank to send you every possible 1099 form, even if they all read $0.00, that’s your business. But I don’t gotta, and I ain’t gonna.